Where do I start with muslim apologetics?

Muslims quite literally don't understand agnosticism/atheism, in the Arabic language it's almost impossible to question God.

you already are

...

explain

He's a retard. I think he's referencing the fact that some phrases in the Arabic language (like the phrase for "sorry") include the word for God. That's just retarded because A) many languages in non-Muslim countries do the same B) Arabs don't represent Islam as a whole and C) non-Muslim Arabs use these phrases too.

Atheism is an invalid ideology. There is no defending it.

This is a must have for all Muslims

It may seem like a meme but it serves as a genuinely good overview of the intellectual history of Islam.

Go back to Twitter and take your shitty GIF with you

Someone says it finally

...

We will burn your churches, papist.

statistically unlikely that’s the case

Based erudite introduction poster

The first sci-fi novel:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theologus_Autodidactus

Islam is the biggest thread to the world at the moment. I can't believe people follow it. I can't believe it's so huge.
Anyone who defends it might quite literally be brainwashed.

Even Manly P Hall said it was Lucifer's cult from the beginning.

>biggest thread
Can you give me a link? Wonder how many replies it got.

threat**
auto correct be damned

the thread's mostly just a lot of anger and literal goat fucking and boy trafficking.

don't worry about it.

Sounds like Utah lol

The fuck

Do English translations exist

scribd.com/doc/51119477/Theologus-Autodidact-Us-of-Ibn-Al-Nafis

Good post.

Stuff like this and Averroes makes me wonder what the fuck went wrong with Islam.

Thanks appreciate it user

All the Islamic empires collapsed or degraded before Christian ones, maybe? Even with Averroes, you can see that Al Ghazali and the mystics were the root of lots of problems in Islam today - orthodoxy, hadith, etc. I don't know if it's a meme, but some Muslims I've mingled with said they should have never gone to the South East lol.

See

I would suggest to read the Quran. Is the way I did.
From what I saw, you start with the Quran and then you read the Sunnah's out there, just be aware that some are considered unauthentic by some schoolars in islam.
I would highly suggest you check the videos from Imam Tawhidi ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Tawhidi ; twitter.com/imamofpeace ). Tho he isen't sunni and hes work is more about tackling the islamists and terrorist groups, you probably is better reading by yourself the muslim books and avoiding the trend of growing wahabbism promoted by countrys and groups like Saudi Arabia.
And like said, check the artists of the muslim world. Many of their works are influenced by the Quran and work.
You can check a poet know as Haffez. He is said to be one of the best persian poets.
I would suggest you to try this, is what I have done and I believe I know some cool stuff about islam.
But your choice, realy.
I have a big interest in understanding the fiqh too, that is, the islamic judiciary system, tho this is said to be very hard.

And if you wanna go crazy, learn arabic too. Muslims love arabic.
It's always nice to know a little bit about one of the biggest religions in the world (or other beliefs systems in general)

pretty on point desu

Muslim apologetics? You mean like when they say they're sorry as they're cutting off your head?

you are not exactly correct. noteworthy sufis of past are basically philosophers, poets, liberals and autists who were born into states where you couldn't oppose islam and had to at least publicly be a good go... muslim.
read fucking omar hayyam and tell with your hand on your heart that you think he was a muslim. he was a sufi - a smart creative person born into muslim shit rule. sufism therefore is not a branch of islam, and those who call themselves sufi because they are unironically muslim and practice it in some special 'sufi' way - are not actual sufis, not in this context and not on this board.

haha good one my fellow redditor, upboated

I really enjoyed the biography "Mohammed" by Karen Armstrong. Not apologetics necessarily but very interesting as far as the background of the person.

youtube.com/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA/videos?flow=grid&sort=p&view=0

Explain.

Ignore it, just a religious apologetic who can't deal with the fact that his diety could be fictional or not what he was always taught it could be.

He's a larper from /pol/

That post would get me shadowbanned on Redit.

stop taking screencaps of reddit-tier spergouts and acting like they are the pinnacle of intellectual discourse

Muslim (I think) here, has anyone read رسالة الغفران ? I think it translates to letter of forgiveness ?
They say it was Dante's inspiration to write the divine comedy.

orientalism

It's All on YouTube in the form of public talks about the science in the quran and Muhammad being in the bible.

They don't have any serious academic attempts at proving their faith.

Just fuck off

probably because convincing with words was never the intent.

The Alchemy of Happiness, its pretty good
I you want to LARP as wahhabi read Management of Savagery and

>Muh embriology
>Muh big bang in the coran
>Muh Muhammad in the bible

Muh fugga

No!

Plenty of Hippies got into Sufism. There are watered down weetern varieties of it, including "non-islamic" varieties of Sufism. Look up Idries Shah, Inayat Khan, Pir Khan, Gurdjieff etc. Other names are escaping me atm.

Highly recommend this video:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=60JboffOhaw

It's largely considered heretical. Similar to gnosticism in Christianity.

No, it's not. Only modern fundamentalists consider heretical. It's a highly integrated part of all North African Muslim life for example (not only them, but they're a prominent example).

BASED Sufi-ism

>heavy lyrics
youtu.be/hSgBNynIu_M?t=1m10s

m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLVZdHAKmes

Not really bro
Ghazali is interesting in that he was a firm Averroes student.
Then went Sufi
But the Sufi element being condemned for bringing in orthodoxy overlooks western revival of the most toxic strain of Islam and the rgional domestic politics of power.

However your South-East Asia point has some validity in other ways.

Case in point is Pakistan; in the 60s it was not the shithole it would become because the Orthodox Mullahs never had the power or congregation they have now thanks to 80s Saudi/US/Israeli funding for jihadis to fight the Soviets.

I would contend Saudi Arabia + South Asian Barelvi-ism (A rather weird puritan sufi-ism that isn't even sufi) plus deobandi-ism has probably been done to erase the influence of Averroes or even Ghazzali himself.

The Ottomans did alot to suppress intellectual thought post 1600 went it went abit wrong intellectual wise with the battle for power being won by the right-wing clerics who banned the print-press.

More interesting is Iran; they are the source of the meme-book that is the Hadith - A collection of politically motivated Chinese whispers which have probably done the greatest damage to modern Islam than any Philosophy.
Muslims worship this blindly to a large degree and it's astonishing how any critique of the Hadith is met with charges of Blasphemy as they style it as you attacking the prophet; even when the Hadith talk insanely rudely about how he fucked, how he pissed etc.
Literally:
>A told B told C told D that the prophet said: E
ABCD Are all trustworthy over 200 years. Therfore it definitely happened. Even if it contradicts the Quran we will bend the Quran to fit the Hadith.

This is because analysis of the Hadith can only be done by "Religious Scholars,"under the idea
"Surgery can only be done bu a qualified Doctor" which has further retarded discourse.
This re-established gacea power for the Religious priest hood hierarchy which Islam has always never had but rather had imposed upon it. Unlike say Catholicism.

The same Prophet that banned the hadith and the Caliph Umar banned them so as to have the Quran as the Apex.

Essentially; Islam is not a monolith.

Yet Iran was also where some based Islamic Philosophy was practiced and developed and discussed when the Ottomans essentially stopped being based.

Maajid Fakhry and Syed Hossein Nasr books are good.

Best contemporary Muslim intellectuals are an Iranian
m.youtube.com/watch?v=sz2QjGHlLuM
and a South East Asian
m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pyXqZq4E0

Based North Africans.
>Gates of Ijtihad open when?

Nasr is good but as a side-note, doesn't believe in Evolution of man.

Muhammed Iqbal was based but very deep an technical in his Reconstruction of Islamic Thought.

All we have are some really good but hardly known academics.
A publication know as Critical Muslim is quiet comfy.
>tfw left with Reza Aslan and Maajid Nawaz

>Hamza Yusuf
>Sometimes people have knowledge but no Adab (manners)

Literally /pol/ and Veeky Forums

I was referring to the other guy, Hamza is not South East Asian lmao

Also, /pol/ has knowledge?
>doesn't believe in Evolution of man.
Nothing wrong with that. He gives solid reasons to back up his case. I'll check out Critical Muslim, thanks.

>Also, /pol/ has knowledge?
Case in point that a little knowledge can indeed be dangerous.
Knowledge of humour and some truths.
Broken clocks are right twice a day.
You'll miss them when they are closed down by the free-speech police.

>Nothing wrong with that. He gives solid reasons to back up his case.

He does so by ignoring the science IMHO. he is sincere I give him that.
You can make a perfectly valid and cogent Islamic argument for the theory of evolution being consistent with Islamic philsophy; Nasr implicitly rejects the notion of man ascending from Apes.
Yet Evolution deals with lineages not necessarily Apes; the idea that we evolved from a single-celled organism
A theory remarked upon by an Islamic philosopher in the middle centuries which has roots to certain Greek philosophers.
>Critical Muslim
No problem. Any recommendations from you lad?

Nasr has a lot of arguments against evolution, and they're worth considering.
cis-ca.org/jol/vol4-no2/nasr-f-prn.pdf

I would recommend Al Attas' book:
marcmanley.com/media/books/al-Attas/Islam-and-Secularism.pdf

I don't believe any good Muslim believes in evolution, no. Considering the Quran itself repeats over and over again that we were created.

“I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was human,
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die human,
To soar with angels blessed above.
And when I sacrifice my angel soul
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.
As a human, I will die once more,
Reborn, I will with the angels soar.
And when I let my angel body go,
I shall be more than mortal mind can know.”

Jalaluddin Rumi

Gnostic-Sufi beliefs could fit into this very easily. The world/evolution was created and goes on mechanically without God's interference, simply by God giving it a "push" in the beginning (as the Deists have it), but the spark of reason/soul was created by God and put into the body of man.

If they did, quite simply they would go against the very document they claim to worship: the Quran.

Rumi is really not that great of a poet, considering many of his poems have alcohol and other vices. I would warn you away from Shia, Sunni, and Sufist faiths, they are all equally invalid because of what they apply to the Quran: which should be taken for what it is, the word of God.

Thanks will read.

Here's another Islamic perspective about the evolution of matter.
tolueislam.org/phenomena-of-nature-chemical-evolution-dr-sayed-abdul-wadud-3/

being created does not contradict discovering the process

If I showed you a caterpillar and a butterfly for the first time and told you that one becomes the other through that magical process, you would think I was insane.
Based

Where in the Quran can you show it being systematically opposed to the process of evolution?

The idea of evolution did not exist at the time the Quran was handed down. If it did, it wasn't in the form that Lamarck and Darwin conceived of it.

Plainly said though, there is evidence the Quran predicts, and is currently predicting the future. This may, believe it or not, be the reason why God stating we were created over and over again is so important in the Qu'ran.

>be the reason why God stating we were created over and over again is so important in the Qu'ran.
Really?
>deep.

That poem seems to be a reference to reincarnation, not evolution. Some sufis believe in reincarnation. Anyway, Sufism isn't exactly gnosis, the Islamic equivalent of gnosis is Irfan.

Yes. Like the idea of a stepped existence/entrance to heaven. There are very innovative things within the Qu'ran.

It's even stated there are multiple Earths, which may imply we might discover them through space travel.

As other anons have pointed out, the Qu'ran also stated that the Earth was spherical before that was accepted as well.

The Qu'ran is a very interesting, peculiar little book. Sometimes I do think it is indeed evidence of God.

Not the other poster but renovatio.zaytuna.edu/ is quite good.

nice criticism, fucktard

...

There is no God accept it and make the most of life while you have the chance

agreed sufism is syncretic ebin and style