The Odyssey is like so dumb...

>Using critical theory to make a surface level observation that ancient Greece was a patriarchal society with values which are completely backwards from the present day
How fucking insightful! Let's give him a Pulitzer Prize!

Odysseus did it to survive.

Why do I have a hunch that his wife rode the cock carousel hard before she meet him?

Why did this post come so late? Why didn't people think about it earlier?

Penelope is dependent on Odysseus in natural contract under which she is to remain faithful

Penelope also might have had to fuck to survive.

The Odyssey is actually a good example of a book that has aged very poorly

It doesn't have anything to offer a modern mind, it is guilty of all those faults and is completely incompatible with modern life

In short, yeah, poetry becomes outdated, so what? you should be reading current stuff anyways, it's not like something is good just because some ancient guy wrote it and other ancient guys continued to pass it down to other guys and so on ad infinitum

Fucking other girls increases the sexual value of a man in the eyes of his woman.
Bitches love to see their man is pimpin', ayo.

but she didn't fuck, and yet she survives

From the youtube comments:

>So basically Odysseus is a Slytherin.

...

>addressing patriarchy directly like he is in a polemic with it
>tumblr-tier rhetorical demeanour
>zero actual critical merit from the literary standpoint
yfw you realise he's actually grooming a future generation of literary critics in America that will finish college, go work over at huffpost and nyt and review his books.
t. John Green

decent bait, made me angry for a sec

To be honest she seems like the type to give a handy, so a bukkakke for the bachelors isn’t unimaginable

While this is obviously bait, what is the origin of this kind of egocentric literary criticism? The idea that a book must be immediately relevant to me in this time and place, otherwise it has no merit.

not bait

my little sister tried to read the Odyssey and she became so discouraged with it that she couldn't even finish it. She asked why all of the women were just objects or subplots for the men and had to do everything that the men told them to. I tried to explain to her that that's how it was back then, that men were really bad and bigoted but she didn't seem all that reassured. She said she'd rather read something that didn't make her feel like a secondary sex and could actually show her something useful about life, not just a masculinity power trip fantasy novel

tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by and The Odyssey doesn't provide them that

It's just that now that more women have been allowed to be in positions of authority in academia and literature that we are beginning to see challenges to works like the Odyssey to see if they actually have any enduring merit that appeals to all races, sexes, and genders rather than just one: white males

thankfully my little sister continued to pursue her interest in literature (with a bit of guidance from me) and she has come to adore Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Jhumpa Lahiri, and Virginia Woolf among others

Post-structuralism.

And you think this is a good thing?
The dissolution and emancipation of western culture and civilisation is not a thing to applaud, you waste of skin. Perhaps you will see the truth when your city has degenerated into a gynarchic, raceless mass of filth, just like your culture.

Teaching women to read was a mistake.

>she'd rather read something that didn't make her feel like a secondary sex
Why does she CHOOSE to feel this way? Homer is dead. She's not reading angry facebook messages. Nobody is bullying her for being a girl. The book cant point a finger at her and laugh. She just cant get over herself.

>and could actually show her something useful about life
>>approaching literature with the presumtion that its only purpose is to be an instruction manual
Naïve

At least she didn’t read pandora or the shit Aristotle had to say

Maybe some bitches shouldn't be reading yo. She could see it as a tale of loyalty and family believing in its unity in the face of adversity, of a man facing numerous perils to find his way back to his woman, the strength and wisdom of Penelope, a son brought up in values that are eternal. Instead she sees some superficial shit.

>tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by
No we don’t, your sister is just a pussy

post your hairless and trim legs

>Implying modern literature by women and for women is better

As someone who read Twilight and 50 Shades in order to know what's the hype and spent autistic amounts of time reading female written feminist porn, I can say that their portrayal of women is far worse than that of the Odyssey.
In these modern books, heroines have zero modicum of will. Everything happens to them; they do not act willfully at all. Even in homosexual pornography, a beloved genre of feminist women, the main hero (an adolescent boy locked up in a dungeon, btw) is an absolutely passive entity who submits to everyone and everything and never tries to do anything for himself, which reflects how women view themselves. This is profoundly insulting to every being with a shred of intelligence, because this kind of narrrative takes away the drive and will from a person. In this respect, contemporary female literature - written by feminist women, remember - portrays women as absolute objects upon whom everyone else impresses their will.
Now let's take Odysseus. Despite the patriarchy, Penelope actually has more agency than the heroines of contemporary fiction. She resisted the suitors and remained faithful, which shows that she has integrity and a force of will. In a modern retelling, the suitors would simply plow her, she would do nothing, and when Odysseus returns she'll act like nothing happened, Maybe her role as a housewife is outdated, but Penelope still is a better example for women than the countless brainless and willess heroines of contemporary literature who mistake sassiness and bitchiness for strength and will.
And you completely forgot about the role of goddesses in the book. Who helps Odysseus in the book? You hardly see anything like that in modern literature.

>tfw gay and get a queer delicious pleasure out of reading things where I’m depicted as monstrous, pathetic, predatory or abominable...
Women need to give in and submit to their masochistic yearnings... indulge in self-hatred... empty empowerment only goes so far without abasement and shame to reignite it’s prizes...

this is just proof that, when challenged, you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?

but that's not what it's about at all. you lack perspective and try to dismiss legitimate criticism from another sex as "superficial"

no, but she is sensitive and probably a far better girl than you

>Despite the patriarchy, Penelope actually has more agency than the heroines of contemporary fiction. She resisted the suitors and remained faithful, which shows that she has integrity and a force of will.
while Odysseus plows woman after woman..

>In a modern retelling, the suitors would simply plow her, she would do nothing, and when Odysseus returns she'll act like nothing happened
so, just what Odysseus did

>And you completely forgot about the role of goddesses in the book
who spends most of the time as a man

see what I mean?

>this is just proof that, when challenged, you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?

are you a retard? It influenced pretty much every piece of art as we know it today. Kickstarted the hero's journey. It's beautiful simply as a piece of poetry...

Pretty much every major Greek philosopher used The Odyssey story as a way to reference situations and help the listener relate. Safe to say we wouldn't have philosophy as we know it today without The Odyssey.

I mean, seriously? You come onto a board about literature and say
>you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound.

Get your tiny head out of your gaping asshole, you braindead imbecile.

Best

>It influenced pretty much every piece of art as we know it today
no and why would that be a good thing? Have we not gone over the contents of the book? Why would you want that sort of undeveloped, one-sided patriarchal influence to be ubiquitous or see that as a good thing?

>Pretty much every major Greek philosopher used The Odyssey story as a way to reference situations and help the listener relate
oh, you mean those guys who said that women and slaves don't have souls, who believed in Ideal Forms and immortal souls?

>Safe to say we wouldn't have philosophy as we know it today without The Odyssey.
and philosophy of today has done what exactly? It's a defunct derelict of the struggle between Theism and Secular Humanism that has lead itself into an impotent homeostasis, being rendered completely and finally irrelevant by modern sciences and technologies

>the rest
once again, nothing but vapid insults

Why should I care about whether something appeals to teenage girls? They prefer one direction to brahms, should we scrap all the orchestras?
It's possible your imaginary sister may grow out of her solipsism, Homer will be there waiting for her

>no and why would that be a good thing? Have we not gone over the contents of the book? Why would you want that sort of undeveloped, one-sided patriarchal influence to be ubiquitous or see that as a good thing?
where were you taught about literature? were you not taught about learning stuff within the context of history?

>oh, you mean those guys who said that women and slaves don't have souls, who believed in Ideal Forms and immortal souls?
Again, context. Not to mention that Ancient Greece treated women a hell of a lot better than any other civilization at the time.
>Ideal Forms
That was just Plato, and it's pretty well established that only he believed in that theory.
>Immortal Souls
No more retarded than any other religion that ever existed. Far from a reason to dismiss an entire work.

>and philosophy of today has done what exactly? It's a defunct derelict of the struggle between Theism and Secular Humanism that has lead itself into an impotent homeostasis, being rendered completely and finally irrelevant by modern sciences and technologies
You're an idiot. Like a massive idiot. Modern science today would simply not exist without ancient philosophy and thus The Odyssey. In ancient times, the science of contemplation and the natural sciences were part of the same noble pursuit.
>technologies
AI, which is arguably the future of technology, is nothing without philosophy (which again, probably wouldn't be around without the Odyssey)

I make true points and you reply
>nothing but vapid insults
Whereas all your points have been pulled out of said gaping asshole and meant nothing. It's also very clear that you have no real grasp of philosophy and your exposure to the Odyssey is probably some half-hearted attempt at reading the introduction before throwing it out because it made your vagina cry.

You're not that smart lad are you?

>be me
>be edglord mcedgy 14 years old
>talk to an old classics scholar about why I don't like Odysseus
>"but muh he was cheating on poor Penelope, he's not a hero!"
>old man looks at me from the gray arcane depth of his wisdom
>"but Penelope was also a bitch."
>dismiss the old man as stoopid
>years later at university attend Odyssey class
>professor reveals that the dream sequence of Penelope where the geese are killed actually show her being sorry for the suitors
>Penelope enjoyed being courted and probably had sex with all of them
>professor says this would have been normal, historically
>professor also says Odysseus had no right to kill anyone after twenty years of absence, and that that's the reason why he has to offer sacrifices after killing them (purification)
>nobody is good in the Odyssey
>old man was right all along
>mfw

reading the comments:
>someone makes a valid point that his reading is skewed towards modern social movements
>passive aggressive comment that suggest "oh no john should never have mentioned sexism because all the sexist freaks are descending"
>some actual good points by people who know their shit more than him
>"who else is here so they don't have to study?!"

IT'S ALMOST AS IF THE MORAL MESSAGE OF THE ODYSSEY IS UNCLEAR AND UP FOR ACADEMIC DEBATE

The Mountain Goats is a band.

>not bait

>you should be reading current stuff anyways
This gave you away the most

>zero capitalization
>It doesn't have anything to offer a modern mind
>poetry becomes outdated
>you should be reading current stuff anyway
>this book is bad because it doesn't appeal to everyone
>my little sister's shallow opinions on classic works of literature matter
> I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?
>denying the Oddyesy's influence
>all ancient Greece philosophers are bad because muh patriarchy and their religious beliefs
>all philosophy is bad because I only understand two basic conflicting philosophical concepts and that those concepts have been around for a while
>philosophy is rendered irrelevant by technology and science
This is either one of the best pieces of bait I've ever seen or a sign that this place has become too mainstream. I'd immediately assume the latter but I can't imagine any autist or /pol/tard going on for this long and putting to much effort into writing this.

*the former
Fucking hell, I think your writing ability has rubbed off on me.

>The Odyssey is actually a good example of a book that has aged very poorly
The Odyssey is a classic precisely because it has stood the test of time for thousands of years and influenced millions of books and authors that came after it.

Books that address the human condition such as The Odyssey cannot "age poorly" simply because it speaks to all humans. Just because it doesn't endorse flash pan political movements run by Amy Schumer and the #MeToo trend doesn't mean its outdated.

>my little sister only identifies with female characters
Your sister is a cunt.

People should be able to identify with the protagonist regardless of their race or gender. I was able to identify with the plight of Gilgamesh despite being a white, non-binary, genderqueer.

Think of any book or movie that contains a hero's journey. Anything from Dante's Inferno, Paradise Lost, or The Lord of the Rings, to The Wizard of Oz, and Harry Potter. These wouldn't exist without The Odyssey.

Are you really this dumb?

This thread is now officially our Spengler and Hyperreactionary literature General thread.

Anyone have recommendations outside the Decline of the West and assorted Evola?

>identifying with characters

>need literature that they can identify

Agreed: I was completely incapable of identifying with Odysseus, as I am neither a good navigator or warrior. I thought Kafka was pointless, since I have never worked in an office, and none of the great Russians matter - how am I to understand them when I am not an orthodox christian, nor am living under the rule of the emperor? Don't even get me started on Shakespeare - I cannot identify with a single one of his characters. In the words of a poet that I cannot identify with because I didn't live in the belle epoque and interwar years, "I am no prince Hamlet" - I simply cannot identify with a prince. I cannot identify with Rupi Kaur because I am not a brown woman living in America, I cannot identify with Harry Potter because I am not a wizard, I cannot identify with any of the fin-de-siecle french authors because I don't drink absinthe.

And as we all know, great literature, and art in general, is about reflection of the self. Seeing yourself in other contexts. If it isn't about you, whatever could it be about? Everything is about me, otherwise it is meaningless.

Do you even realize that you're being a huge misogynist? The Odyssey, among other things, is about devotion, dedication, self-mastery, overcoming terrible adversities through will and wit, and you're saying those themes cannot be grasped by a woman's mind? Nice Schopenhauerian attitude.

Subtle

I must (You) this

People like you belong in gas chambers

why would they bother with "serious" literature when that consists of books that revel in ideas and plots and characters that demean them?

that's not much of a substantial comment is it?

It's not about identifying with specific characters you brainlets, it's about a type of literature that is extremely hostile to any who do not look like the ones who wrote it

it amazes me the misogynistic and uniformed, mono-minded responses that I have received in this thread. Really showcases the blind adherence to norms that only were established and survived due to the paradigm that has dominated for centuries but is now changing (thankfully)

for the first time you are hearing and having to deal with people who don't want to play by your "boys" rules and you all act exactly like reluctant, angry little boys who don't want to allow others in because you are either just outright prejudiced or afraid that they might call out that your precious emperors have no clothes

The Odyssey has no place in the modern mind or society and it's not a sad thing to see it go

Tell her to grow a pair

>tfw secretly enjoying the bait, and looking forward to reading pissed off replies
You know, he's actually making an effort, like the old days, when trolling actually meant something

>who do not look like the ones who wrote it
But homer was a black woman

nice bait

This

This man writes stories for children and women - why do you care about what he has to say? You think those children/women he's appealing to actually give a fuck about the Odyssey? Just ignore him; he's trash.

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention while reading the Odyssey, but save for Calypso, I don't recall Odysseus sleeping with any other woman. Was the woman plowing just implied by virtue of it just being the Greeks?

>The Odyssey has no place in the modern mind or society and it's not a sad thing to see it go
Something something Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World.

>men were really bad and bigoted
>tldr;
This post has got to be a bait straight from the fedora land. However, assuming for a second that this is a real, unironic post and that you aren't a degenerate fedora faggot, I have to say that you're doing a grievous disservice to your sister by choosing the most lazy and lowbrow approach. So she faced something she didn't understand, and something that seems to have been unpleasant, and your solutions is to tell her that 'men were bad back then', use the trash-tier language of modern faux intelligentsia (bigotry, women allowed in positions of authority, white males) and reinforce her prejudices, which is completely opposite to what should be taught to a young person if one wants them to acquire understanding of the world. You culminate it by offering her second-tier authors that she "can identify with" and relate to.

So this hypothetical you, as I'm still convinced you're just trolling, is taking the sensless approach of a dumb, unaware person effectively hijacking her still-developing psyche. If you were at least slightly wise, you'd try to highlight the importance of her having to experience the Odyssey for its artistic and historical value. Or fuck, underline the role of Penelope in the epic, contrast the brutality of those mythical times both for women and men. Reading so that you feel """comfy""" and """relatable""" is the first step to becoming a stupid midbrow fuck. Next thing you know and she's suddenly into John Green and NYT bestsellers.
If you're not a troll and wrote that unironically , and don't want your sister to become you, then you should encourage her to read the classics, especially if she's not comfortable with them. She's obviously been poisoned by the comfiness disease, but it shouldn't be irreversible. Just stop feeding her total bullshit and encourage her to get on a genuine level of understanding.

>starting with the Odyssey

>It's not about identifying with specific characters you brainlets, it's about a type of literature that is extremely hostile to any who do not look like the ones who wrote it

No, it's about "appeal" according to you, and the appeal of the Odyssey vis-a-vis devotion, dedication, self-mastery, etc. is apparently not available to women, blacks, asians and queers - they simply cannot identify with it.

Whatever. But since we're shifting the goalpost, and it is no longer about not being able to identify with the text but rather needing texts to not be hostile to you, go ahead and tell me how the Odyssey is downright hostile to women. Give me examples enough to counteract the fact that Odysseus is lead, helped, and only prevails, due to the interference of a female goddess. Give me enough examples to detract from the cleverness of Penelope. And tell me why, if you believe it, the text is not hostile to straight white males, despite the fact that the white male suitors are all drunken, disgusting degenerates.

I know. It's almost socratic.

>implying Odysseus wanted to fuck either Circe or Calypso

вretty good вait

> my sister
Yeah it’s so genius, only you could have seen through it

read spengler's nachlass, might of the west lawrence brown. recently there has been a very worthwhile release of a minor collection of franics parker yockey's writings

universal literacy was a mistake

>old man looks at me from the gray arcane depth of his wisdom
>"but Penelope was also a bitch."

>implying he didn't fuck nausicaa by the river like the chad he is

Did you read Ulysses?

As much as I agree with disregarding oddisey's promiscuity, there is no reason to even imply that penelope should whore herself out.

>thumbs up if he made your homework for you XDDDD

So this is the enlightened Gen Z people tell me about.

>tfw he is published and I'm not

Point still stands

I cant bother arguing with some indoctrinated, immature /pol/-tard. Why dont you actually read it yourself and see first hand that Odysseus is openly hostile towards women, Penelope is a shallow mess of a character, and that man and the masculine experience are placed at the center of the universe.
Ball's in your court, brainlet.

I fucking hate what Harry Potter has done to the world. These people (who are now full grown adults, mind you) think that by having read seven children's books, they have any right to speak about literature.

I believe he also gets it on with Circe. Regardless, he stays with Calypso for like years iirc.

>Penelope is a shallow mess of a character
Oh boy and you were doing so well

From what I remember based on previous lit threads about this guy:
>he met his wife in college
>wife rejects him
>becomes famous author
>reconnects with wife
>they get married
I think he told his fans that he was a whiny crybaby or something when he first met her so she didn't like him but then he grew up. I think he has a point but I don't exactly know how his wife improved over the last few years to merit his own affection back. It's very odd, it's like his wife was a prize or a judge of his self-worth, or maybe he was afraid to approach younger/more successful women once he got big.

Is there a single work of serious literature written before 1940s that doesn't trigger your sensibilities?

Le Communix Manefesto, by Karl E. Marx. Other than that, no, because all authors are Dead White Guys, except for Karl E. Marx, and hes a jew, and what greater joy is there than Jews taking your money, fuck off back to /pol/

Trying too hard.

>Odysseus did it to survive.

He executed all the girls who slept with suitors, and would have done the same for penelope. Was that survival, user?

preservation of honor

The girls didn’t need to sleep with the suitors to survive, as evidenced by the fact that many of them did not sleep with the suitors and still survived. Odysseus was dealing with goddesses.

>odysseus the original school shooter

Do you have actual proof they were not pressured in any way?

>suitor slaughterer

JK Rowling was a grown women that did essentially the same with Harry Potter. At least the main characters of John Greene books are the same gender as the author. Girls fall in love with the guys John Greene writes about, it doesn't mean he's writing about teenage girls, except from the perspective of a boy in love with his Mary Sue Manic Pixie Dream Girl crush of the book who always gets subverted somehow by the end so he can get his obligatory gushing "YA novel with a twist" reviews

What's really creepy about Greene is how he thinks Augustus fucking Waters is in any way an acceptable name for an actual human being