How much more advanced would we be if we never had the dark ages?

>people are still reposting this dried out meme from 2008

what next, le "troll science" comics? kys.

This is a troll thread, but I'll use the opportunity to post the correct version.

That feel when we probably really would be exploring the galaxy right now if not for reactionary "Renaissance" humanists destroying the achievements of the Catholic Middle Ages.

>Catholic Dark Ages
Thank God for the Protestant printing press

Gutenberg was a Catholic.

>graphism made to prove that being religious is bad for scientific advancement
Proves its point by:
>Level of atheism generally correlates strongly with intelligence and scientific advancement

Something seems off here, user

There is a really intriguing story by McKenna about an alternative time line without Christianity, keeping the empire alive and continuing Greek knowledge, contacting the new world and going into cultural exchange with the Maya, evolving into greeco-roman-mayan civilization that was so advanced that they landed on the moon in the 12th century.

The narrative starts at about 4:30
youtube.com/watch?v=Ne3K23sG_2E

>evolving into greeco-roman-mayan civilization that was so advanced that they landed on the moon in the 12th century.
So in the course of 700-800 years they abandoned slavery, underwent a major agricultural revolution, discovered advenced metallurgy, the population grew exponentially to the point when they started industrializing and the Empire underwent several industrial revolutions, they discovered electricity, wireless communication and rocket science, just because the lack of Christianity?
How fucking retard is that?

>fucking retard
>Mckenna

Pick two.

well yeah thats the whole point, christianity is literally cancer

Holy shrooms

No all intellectuals and inventors back then were secretly atheist but they had to pretend to be Christian otherwise the church would have murdered them. I mean think about it, do you really think someone who believes in a magical sky fairy is actually capable of creative thought? Get real.

Probably more than you think. But don't fall for that silly meme map.

T. Estonian Atheist

DUDE

It's an extrapolation on the continuation of Greek knowledge which could have been a possible scenario, had the empire not adapted Christianity.
Imagine schools of Plato and Aristotle thriving for another 2000 years and all of the ancient knowledge not lost in the ruins of antiquity.

>all intellectuals and inventors
seriously? is this some meme?
needs some [citation needed]

Nice meme

If Greek paganism was so great, why were the Greeks the first Gentiles to embrace Christianity?

>Paul tricked them with his sneaky Jew magic!

But I thought they were supposed to be super duper smart?

So Newton developed a revelations doom date purely for bantz?

With or without Christianity, the fall of Rome was inevitable. Christiantiy wasn't a deciding factor in this event, so it is safe to assume that without Christianity it would be the same.
Christianity even helped the antique knowledge to survive and it was a base of (minor) technological advancement.

The Christian Roman Empire was already decadent, but the Middle Ages much improved on Greek and Roman knowledge. By around the year 1040, after Vikings were Christianized, the sciences and humanities were already surpassing the Classical world. This shit about the "Dark Ages" is the most debunked piece of pseudo-history around.

From the fall of the WRE to Charlemagne, ages were definitely dark, the meme is that all the middle ages were dark and not just the first turbulent phase.

>magical sky fairy

moron, get off my board.

probly the same as in every other communism block country thats still trying to become a true first world country

The ayys would've found our radio signals earlier and we would have been glassed already.

>christian dark ages
>neglecting the plagues and mongolians

Tech from 2000s would have happened back in 1500s.

We'd be on Mars by now.

Because nearly all of us of European decent would be dead.

But reborn in an alternate universe where the Nixon administration didn't happen.

Thus, Mars.

I leik u

Correlation does not equal causation, autist. I'm speaking as an atheist who has argued against religion on this board before, but you're making us look bad when you use an argument like this
So tell me, where did you get that chart from? How does it quantify scientific advancement? Why are the Romans automatically more advanced than the Greeks? What major scientific advancement did they create? Can you actually tell me how scientific advancement was stifled without resorting to "hurr durr the Church did it"? Why does it ignore every region of the world besides Europe, even though the Islamic world, India, and China were far more technologically advanced than Europe for much of history? Why do you call them the Christian Dark Ages, as if the Dark Ages were solely caused by Christianity? Why do you even bother calling them the Dark Ages when that name is a fucking meme? How stupid are you?

Go back to /pol/ where you belong.

calm down reddit, you are leaking butthurt all over the place

...

Can't wait for Hillary to become President.

Lol

Beakers.

Fucking tipped
For real you so called intellectuals always omit how a plague wiped out half of europe.

But no, is cause of CHRISTIAN DARK AGE

And this graph makes no fucking sense. It's mixing up spatial locations (countries) then switch to religion and to fucking science cause fuck you.

I hate it when imbeciles make easy-to-swallow false graph to lure other "enlightened" folks into believing into their messy ideas. It's obviously biased and tries to pass this off as mere data. It's no different than religious brainwash.

Veeky Forums should make already a pasta or image to put as a response when this is posted.

Because this is reposted all the time.

Actually who even CREATED this graphic? Its around for years and never found the source, look like it was made by some random person on the internet.

Christians believe in sky faeries,its more important to please the sky faerie than do the hard work of scientific discovery. That is why we had the dark ages,prayer was more important than math.

Reminder that most modern anti-Christian memes were originally created and/or spread by Protestants in order smear the Catholic Church.

The American Protestant of today who say "Christianity invented everything" are the descendants of those who for centuries denied Catholic Christians had any contribution to Science.

No, they were too busy surviving back then. They couldn't afford to make any researches and innovations.

Actually if you read into guys like Newton and Boyle they believed that God desired them to discover things about the world that he created for them. Their scientific research was a facet of their worship. In the Dark Ages people did'nt have the monetary means to spend on things like academic pursuits for the most part, come the Medieval Period (800-1400) they did and learning exploded, despite the church having MORE, not less, power and influence.

It was
The guy still defends it on his blog

Advancement is made during times of leisure when there's nothing else to spend money on or times of stress when problems need to be solved immediately

If Rome didn't fall, western civilization likely would have stagnated much like Chinese civilization

The Roman Empire was more stagnant desu. Slavery causes stagnation.

You forgot the GODDAMN CHINESE!

Bump

>Atheism generally correlates with scientific advancement.
No it fucking doesn't.

either you are shitposting or your knowledge of history is pathetic.

WES BE FLYIN IN THE SKY IN ROBODRIVEN SUPAH CARS

>people still buying this meme about the "dark ages."
If you weren't on a history board and you were just some random as she, I'd pity you.

The dark ages came with huge agricultural advancements and leaps forward in architecture. We became better at warfare. Medicine got a little worse, but it wasn't great to begin with. The dark ages initiated philosophy (des cartes was late medieval) and brought a universal language to the Germanic peoples to be shared with the vulgar Latins. The feudal hierarchy was more effective at protecting everyday people than centralised Roman policy ever was and the church was an incredible tool to spread and develop scientific knowledge. Sure, the church was also cunty about the solar model, but they also helped create and spread Mendelian genetics and lots of other cool shit. Secular schooling that our current education systems are modeled after started in the early days of the HRE. Vernaculars were codified, allowing more everyday people the ability to read and write.

They weren't perfect and there were real setbacks, but they weren't the great evil that everyone says they were.

The picture is not very related.

>people are unironically responding to bait this pathetic

>"Renaissance" humanists destroying the achievements of the Catholic Middle Ages.
This is as much historical revisionism as the "Christian Dark Ages" of the OP, just going in the opposite direction.

That picture is also not "the correct version", mostly for the two obvious problems that it's only applicable for Western Europe (and thus irrelevant for overall human scientific discoveries) and that the Renaissance isn't a time period, but an art movement. Also, it still doesn't have labels in the y-axis, so you can go fuck yourself.

don't forget they also decided that conquering the rest of europe was not worth it and decided to venture into the west (also inventing the compass or something to allow them oceanic travel) stablishing contact with the mayans (before their classic collapse, of course) quick enough to thrive the greco-roman-mayan civilization as early as possible to develop everything you named. i would lower your numbers to at least 500-600 years

Sid plz go.

>The feudal hierarchy was more effective at protecting everyday people
Pax Romana (Latin for "Roman Peace") was the long period of relative peacefulness for 206 years (27 BC to 180 AD) The peace was only broken by wars in Judaea and Parthia.

> the church was an incredible tool to spread and develop scientific knowledge.
Science didnt start developing until the 13th century,and there was no spread until the invention of the printing press.

>kys
Every single one of you, kill yourselves.

Pax Romana only lasted so long. It couldn't cope with the increased power of previously docile barbarian groups. The hierarchy of the Roman empire, I would argue, is not what maintained the peace.

It may not have been called science, but scharly activity was, for a long time, a pursuit undergone only by monastic orders.

Meanwhile the Carolingian Renaissance lasted one generation before Charlemanges numerous bastards started fighting each other.

The Roman empire was larger,more interconnected and more peaceful than the dark ages.

>they also helped create and spread Mendelian genetics and lots of other cool shit.

They tried to get him to stop. It's also funny that the stereotype worked against him in academia, nobody wanted to take a monk seriously. So the church and intelligentsia were equally dicks to Mendel.

Those barbarian groups were never docile. What killed the Roman empire was the concentration of wealth into the hands of the few, the subsequent exemption of the latifundia owners from taxes (whether legal or extra legal), the impoverishment of civil society, and the stereotyping of labor (your father was a potter, you are a potter).

Roman society was only as strong as the middle class farmers who formed the bulk of the military.

This is essentially the same process which killed spartan society writ large.

I do believe the lesson of history is unambiguous here.

>What killed the Roman empire was the concentration of wealth into the hands of the few,
And yet the Byzantine lasted another 1000 years,I think the causes of Romes fall were a sequence of ambiguous problems that could not be solved in time.

Ah, but if you were a historian of Byzantine history you would know of the numerous land reforms pushed by the Emperors and how the fortunes of empire waxed and waned as a result.

The loss of most of the overseas holdings actually strengthened the sovereign, and made it possible to challenge the regional strategoi.

Huh, the Protestant YECs always leave out the fact that they were Catholics. Gee, I wonder why?

>they abandoned slavery
I don't know if that's on the video, but there's no need to end slavery to go to the moon. If anything, it's probably useful to keep the slaves.

Because catholics believe in a false gospel(evolution) and are therefore not Christians

>The dark ages initiated philosophy
What the fuck am I reading.

"The dark ages" what the fuck does this shit even mean

The Dark Ages was a real period directly after the fall of the Western Roman Empire which pretty much fucked up everything since the largest singular power in Europe proper collapsed. Technically the Dark Ages begin before the Fall itself, as the collapse was not a sudden thing but a gradual erosion of power as corruption, nepotism, bureaucracy and invasions weakened Rome until it finally did collapse to invading barbarians, who weren't really all that barbaric but for Rome there was Romans, Roman subjects and barbarians so whachagonnado.
Now, the Dark Ages was a very brief period of time until new governing bodies established their domains. The HRE is indirectly borne out of the Fall of Rome and claimed to be its successor
>inb4 >h>r>e
although it would not be the only state to attempt to claim it to be the successor to Rome, it would be the most successful.

The Dark Ages fairly quickly gave way to the Early Medieval period, and the Dark Ages themselves were not that Dark. Although much knowledge was lost by the end of the Dark Age, so named because of the massive lack of written documents surviving from the time, making it a "dark spot" on a historical map, the technological level was at least on par, and often somewhat better than it had been before the Fall of Rome. Barring certain lost "technologies" such as plumbing and continent spanning roads, although that is partially due to the massive cost needed to develop such things, something Rome very well could afford with its mass of tributary states and very much something small nation states with attached duchies could not afford.

very advanced

What is this?

It appears to be a graph roughly approximating the social development of the world from 14,000BCE to 2000CE.
It seems to imply that any loss of society from the Fall of Rome and subsequent Dark Ages was made up in great time by the eras of Renaissance and Enlightenment.

I can figure out how to read a graph, I'm asking what the labels mean.

What is being defined as "social development", and how is it being measured? What is "East" and "West" in this context?

Even if the graph looks more scientific (and is definitely more complete), it's just as pointless without clear labels and context.

There was a drop in scientific knowledge during the Renaissance, this is a simple fact. The work of medieval natural philosophers was discarded and not rediscovered until Galileo, Descartes, and Newton.

>only applicable for Western Europe (and thus irrelevant for overall human scientific discoveries)
There have been no significant scientific advancements outside of the West for the past 1000 years, so I'm afraid it's the rest of the world that's irrelevant to "overall human scientific discoveries".

>the Renaissance isn't a time period, but an art movement
It's both.

We know you are only doing this to trigger christfags.

Only memehistory 14 yo fans and romeaboos think like this.

There is a difference between philosophy and scientific experiment.

Science works when it explains objective observations and explores their implications.

>implying math would have saved your ass from the black plague

Holy hell you lordless lords are as laughable than the hard christians

Maybe we could use this pic

Even if I conceded that there weren't any "scientific advancements" outside of Europe for 1000 years, which I won't, the graph is still wrong because people outside of Europe always retained the knowledge. Even if some of it was lost, the drops you see in both OP's and your pic are just blown out of proportion. The fact that both of you ignore that the Roman Empire fell until the 15th century (or arguably the 13th) is telling.

There were pretty much no scientific endeavors throughout the whole "Dark Ages". Every scholarly work was centered around philosophy, and the concepts of scientific experimentation and the philosophy of science were non-existent. Even though this mostly continued the Greek tradition of philosophy over true science, the fact of the matter is that Greek philosophy was something completely new, while medieval philosophy was hardly innovative.

The Renaissance is only the art movement. People have conflated it to be a time period, but it happened at different times in different regions, so that makes no sense. And the biggest change outside of art was the fact that God stopped being the center of all European endeavor, and as such both art and philosophy were free to explore a treasure trove of ideas that hadn't been explored in those regions for centuries.

And, finally, you still haven't addressed the fact that you have no metric to measure scientific advancement and are committing the same stupidity that the original author did. Which isn't surprising, considering you're both trying to push an agenda that suits their sensibilities.

what is the mediterranian chalcolithic era dark age?

this meme you've got here needs to die

>Linking to /pol/ in an argument
You already lost friendo

This MeeM is getting out of control

Well, the Romans had arches, which allowed them to build far superior and more durable buildings, for one.

>I don't know shit how will I respond to this
>Better not respond at all like a faggot
Telling you to fuck off doesn't invalidate anything, /pol/tard.

nope. having slaves makes easier to do things, while not having them pushes you to search a cheaper way to do things, in other words, to automate things.
if you have someone to drive you everywhere you will never learn to drive because you have no need to.

You don't even have to be a Christian to know this chart is bullshit

what caused the fall of the WRE was weak rulers and unchecked corruption. The armies were still a unmatched fighting force when they had competent command ex Majorian, Boniface and Aitus.

Hell Majorian came close to pretty much restoring the WRE. He only fell short because perfidious Germania assassinated him for rooting out corruption.

Bait pics. They are always bait pics.

The Romans were really better at civil engineering and administration than research and development.

Aqueducts fucking everywhere. baths, viaducts, stadiums, basilicas, roads, extremely fancy ports.

Also, large empires encourage trade, or at least it did until the Roman empire started eating itself.

>All those people made scientific discoveries just because they were Catholic

Durr.

architecture, politics, civil rights, metalurgy, exploration, organization at numbers never seen before, civil engineering, construction machinery, finance, military science, and much more.

ITT: An unscientific graph and butthurt religious people.

Just be patient while religion continues to whither into irrelevancy.

Some religions might need more help, though, like Islam. Otherwise it may destroy too much of our advancement.

>all those catholics prevented intelligent people from doing scientific advancements
also, some like newton even wrote they wanted to investigate, develop and discover all that because they belived it's the reason god created mankind, so that argument is valid.