Let's talk about Ukrainian insurgents before and after WWII Veeky Forums.
I was talking with a Russian coworker the other day, and she claimed that most Ukrainian partisans were pro-Soviet and only a few were "traitors". I wanna know if she's right or if she was being a vatnik.
So Veeky Forums, what percentage of Ukrainian partisans were completely pro-Soviet? What percentage were nationalist and revolted against the USSR following WWII? And what percentage of anti-Soviet Ukrainian insurgents collaborated with the Nazis?
The word "partisan", in the context of the Eastern front in WW2, means something different than it normally would. They were military formations on occupied territory organized by local remnants of the Red Army or political officers, and they were centrally controlled by Moscow. It is true though that these partisans comprised most of the resistance in Ukraine, Belarus and Bryansk. The Banderites fought against both the Nazis and Soviets.
Cooper Wood
it's something that evolved pretty quickly over time.
at the start of Barbarossa, Stepan Bandera's men were probably the majority of partisans and were anti-soviet, but after getting shafted by the Nazis, they fell into obscurity.
later on, there were a large number of pro-German soviet defectors who wanted to see a Russian/Ukrainian state free from Stalin, but they too were massacred by the Nazis after a while when it became clear that there would be no Russian state.
From late 1942 onward, the overwhelming majority of partisans were pro-soviet, after German atrocities against the occupied population mounted further and further.
You could say the Germans racial policy really did waste a valuable ally in the anti-communist civilians of the occupied USSR, but the decision to massacre them for living space turned the population against Germany very quickly.
Logan Allen
>The Banderites fought against both the Nazis and Soviets
They collaborated with Nazis tho
Ayden Stewart
Okay so in regards to the Ukrainian insurgents who fought the USSR following the war, were they all Banderites? Were they any other Ukrainian insurgent groups who had been pro-Nazi during the war, or were once pro-Soviet and then turned against the Soviets?
Luke Lopez
>no Ukrainian nazi bf
Why live
Connor Sullivan
Call me.
James Harris
The recent crisis in Ukraine really blew Bandera's significance out of proportion. During the war he spent most of his time as a prisoner of the Nazis and after the war, he went to West Germany. The bulk of post war resistance were the Forest Brothers in the occupied Baltic states who were largely collaborationist and always opposed the Soviets.
Easton Ortiz
Ukraine during WW2 was a complete mess. There was a plethora a groups, each of them pursued a different agenda: pro-Banderas, pro-Bulbas, Poles, various Soviet groups etc. Some of those groups were acting openly (especially at the start of German occupation), others were secret or in hiding. Alliances were shifting faster than you could keep track on, and even nominally unified groups were often completely disjointed. So, someone could for example start out as pro-German and anti-Polish and anti-Soviet, then turn pro-Soviet, only to ally with the Poles at the end, despite genociding the Poles before. Other configurations also happened.
Despite what pro-Soviet drones claim today, there were even cases of collaboration of pro-Soviet groups with the Germans, usually to complete the common goal of wiping out nationalists or Poles.
In truth, there's no way to tell who were actually "traitors" in that clusterfuck. Actually one could be both "traitor" and pro-Soviet.
Dylan Miller
To add to what I wrote, the various groups also fought each other, including the different nationalist groups.
Daniel Williams
Thanks for the explanation user. So does this mean I was right in suspecting my Russian coworker was being a pro-Soviet drone?
Adrian Cruz
Did the Eastern Front encompass Yugoslavia?The Yugoslav Partisans weren't organized by the Soviets.
Thomas Howard
Some UPA fighters, photo taken shortly after WW2.
Adam Anderson
...
Levi Martin
And here one of their "archievments"
Nathan Carter
Holy fuck what the hell did they do?
William Jones
well it looks like they killed and chopped up a lady there. hardly the worst thing that happened during world war 2
Adam Bennett
Don't worry, that's probably a Pole so you can rest easy knowing no humans were harmed.
I'm not a fan of unsubtle propaganda. Smarzowski is a good director so I hope his film will be good.
Josiah Campbell
>fan of unsubtle propaganda How is this propaganda?
Michael Rivera
>Manipulative music >clearly made by some ONR retards >muh Olszewski Volhynia massacre is just a small part of this "documentary".
Carson Jones
>Volhynia massacre is just a small part of this "documentary". Maybe cause Volhynia massacre is just small part of all these massacres made in Poland?
>clearly made by some ONR retards It doesn't matter who made it, it matters what it shows.
>Manipulative music I guess silent kino is your cup of tea.
Carter Diaz
>Maybe cause Volhynia massacre is just small part of all these massacres made in Poland? Besides Volhynia, Ukrainians were murdering Poles in Galicia and Little Poland.
Nicholas Carter
>silent kino is your cup of tea Silent films weren't really silent. There was always live music played by pianists or the orchestra.
It's just a silly movie made by some nationalists. Overly emotional, unsubtle and cheesy.
Jacob Nelson
Obviously >It's just a silly movie made by some nationalists. Why nationalists, is patriots too hard word for you? >Overly emotional It's very brutal subject, kinda impossible to made movie about it without any emotions, remember it was made by amateurs >unsubtle and cheesy No comment
Ayden White
ok, now can somebody explain to me why I should care about dead poles during ww2?
Hunter Morales
Do you think killing Poles is acceptable?
Aaron Howard
Well, you are clearly biased. What can I do?
>nationalists The entire narrative regarding the round table agreement, Olszewski's government and real or alleged TWs.
>unsubtle and cheesy Just listen to this music.
>kinda impossible to made movie about it without any emotions Yes, but when something is overdramatized like that it's hard to take it seriously. The title is "Ludobójstwo" (genocide) yet half of the movie isn't even about this.
Asher Sullivan
yes, but they should have done it earlier, you backstabbing poles are the reason Ukraine fell to communism
Zachary Robinson
>yes, but they should have done it earlier, you backstabbing poles are the reason Ukraine fell to communism
Bullshit. The reason why Ukraine failed was that there was no support for such country among the population. The joint Polish-Ukrainian Kiev Expedition of 1920 was a complete failure because the population of Central Ukraine, including Kiev itself, was completely indifferent to the Ukrainian cause.
Landon Davis
Ludobójstwo isnt only made in death camps. Its just planned massive killing. Such as purging whole villages at the beginning of the war. And i have nothing against the music, i am glad the times when "Requiem for a dream" was spamed in similiar videos, are gone.
Thomas James
>Its just planned massive killing Nope.
>Genocide (From Greek: Γενοkτονία) is the intentional action to systematically eliminate an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. Pacification of Wujek is not genocide. After WW2 no one tried to exterminate the Poles.
Benjamin Ross
>Olszewski's government
Possibly the worst government Poland ever had, with a complete Muppet on the helm.
Surprisingly, the only people who believe in conspiracy theories that surround the downfall of that government are those who are too young to actually remember it.
Andrew Williams
>Its just planned massive killing.
No. Genocide is the act of exterminating of an entire ethnic group.
Thomas Smith
yeah, because tying down 75 thousand troops from the western Ukrainian peoples republic had nothing to do with the outcome of the Soviet Ukrainian war going on at the same time.
The reason why the Polish war with the Soviet Union failed was because Poland completely over-extended itself and Ukraine at the time was completely war torn. Also it's kind of hard to win the hearts and minds of people you were at war with just two years ago.
Isaac Anderson
>The title is "Ludobójstwo" (genocide) yet half of the movie isn't even about this. >Pacification of Wujek is not genocide. After WW2 no one tried to exterminate the Poles.
You said that like most of the movie was mostly about pacifying strikes and after war history of Poland. It was author will to put it into the video, just to show consequences of lost war by Poland
Exterminating thousands of viligies looks like genocide for me
Carter Torres
Thank god Stalin moved all the Poles and Ukrainians to opposite sides of the border.
Aiden King
Yeah, Poles seems to forget our ethnic purity was decided by Stalin.
Asher Rivera
>yes, but they should have done it earlier, you backstabbing poles are the reason Ukraine fell to communism What backstabbing? Pilsudski took Kiev and gave it back to Petliura just as he promised. Just because the SFSR invaded again and Western Ukraine couldn't hold their ground wasn't Poland's fault.
Oliver Hall
Are you autistic or what? Obviously Poles were fighting with Ukrainians at the start. Because both sides were claiming same territories. Why the fuck should Poles abandon territories they claimed as theirs?
Politics is not a fucking game of altruism. Poles were inclined to support the Ukrainian cause only when it was in the interest of the Polish state. But when the Poles decided to support the Ukrainian, it was pretty immediately apparent that the whole 'Ukrainian nationalism' thingy is nothing but a pipedream. There was no support for an independent Ukrainian state among the broader population. Both Polish AND Ukrainian troops were welcomed with emotions ranging from complete indifference to hostility. When Poles and Ukrainians entered Kiev in spring 1920, there were no celebrating people waving Ukrainian flags. Instead, the population treated the newcomers as yet another army passing through.
Connor Morgan
>Both Polish AND Ukrainian troops were welcomed with emotions ranging from complete indifference to hostility. When Poles and Ukrainians entered Kiev in spring 1920, there were no celebrating people waving Ukrainian flags. Instead, the population treated the newcomers as yet another army passing through. I bet they later loved their Holdomor and being under the USSR boot.
Jason Lopez
>I bet they later loved their Holdomor and being under the USSR boot.
Ukrainians are not famous for making sane and sound geopolitical choices.
Ayden Cooper
The Ukrainians some weeks ago renamed 'Moscow Street' in Kiev after the guy who lead these massacres. Think about that.
Ayden Barnes
Hohols gonna pay for their decisions, any time soon..
Chase Lee
I like how Ukrainians are doing literally every possible thing to lose Poland's support. I really admire how hard they try.
Matthew Nguyen
Poland literally just loaned Ukraine $1 billion...
Jayden Sanchez
>lead these massacres this irks my historical autism, Stepan Bandera was literally in a concentration camp for this period of time and most of the war
Josiah Williams
SZUCHEWYCZ
Ryan Adams
No one cared about Ukrainians... In Paris Peace Conference nobody even talked about Ukraine... Eventually Britain, and France said - If Poland will not stop attackimg russia, We will stop supporting it... That shows, what other countries thoth about this idea. Poland had 2 choices - attack Russia, and risk "battle of Warsaw" round 2, or make a threathy... The question is - Did Poland send half of Ukraine to Russia, or saved half of Ukraine from Russia?
Blake Watson
But it doesn't make him saint. How about terrorist attacks in Poland? How about Jewish massacres? He made this organization...
Kayden Gomez
>or saved half of Ukraine from Russia? This, but Ukraine buckled when the Bolsheviks attacked again.
Angel Peterson
*in 1920.
Cameron White
I don't think that's terribly unreasonable given the climate of the time and his position.
Juan Reed
>No one cared about Ukrainians... In Paris Peace Conference nobody even talked about Ukraine...
Bullshit. There were even Ukrainian envoys during the conference. Problem is... Ukrainians made such a horrible impression there that no one wanted to support their case.
In the end, Ukrainians in difference to Poles, had nothing to offer. Poles at least could offer a viable state capable of stabilizing the region and containing the Bolsheviks, while Ukrainians at that time had even serious problems to convince the population that they are indeed of Ukrainian nationality plus they were divided into factions that hated each other guts and were fighting each other.
>Poland had 2 choices - attack Russia, and risk "battle of Warsaw" round 2, or make a threathy...
After the Battle of Nieman in autumn 1920 the Bolshevik army virtually ceased to exist. Poland was in unique position to topple the Bolsheviks altogether. However, the Poles stopped their offensive and sat behind the negotiation table for two reasons: 1. Internal Polish politics. Pilsudski's socialists were losing power to Dmowski's nationalists who wanted a self-contained Poland, not interventionist Poland like Pilsudski. Plus, the country was completely exhausted by 6 years of warfare. 2. The questions - what's next after Bolsheviks. The irony is that Bolsheviks were actually the only Russian faction that was willing to recognize Polish independence. The White Russians still lived the pipedream of Poland being part of Russia. Poland toppling the Bolsheviks could result in emergence of White Russia that would outright refuse to recognize Poland.
>The question is - Did Poland send half of Ukraine to Russia, or saved half of Ukraine from Russia?
Neither. Poland annexed territories which Poles considered Polish. While Ukrainians had a competing claim, it doesn't change the fact that to Poles that was Southeastern Poland, not Western Ukraine.
Luke Myers
Nother option for you here bb.
Dylan White
Source?
Angel Ross
David Lloyd George - I know there were, but it changed nothing... David Lloyd George started even trade with red russia - do you imagine white russia were it allly. Something, who could not stop Napoleon, could not stop any piece of paper... France just wanted to stop war. Germany had no army, austria - and whole countries arised from it - had no army... Who would be next? And how about comunist movement in Itally and Spain later... So Ukraine? Who cares... If We talk about factions, actually Petlura had army, so he ruled Ukraine.
Poland wanted to stop war, but soldiers, when they heard about ending war, they just could not believe it... If Piłsudski would say "fight" they would do that.
Nationalism in Poland was a disease - I can agree with that. In Ryga we could take more lands - but not Ukrainians... Yea, but when bolsheviks attacked Warsow, Poles allso had no chance. Trocki did not know haw big his army is - they said that 4 milions... Poland did not know for sure...
Paland took tereitories, which they considerea as Polish... Ok. But was it so terrible for Ukrainians? Nationalists fucked up our relationships, but, the alternative? Alternative for Poles - Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–38).
Evan Green
>The Banderites fought against both the Nazis and Soviets. They collaborated with nazis.
Okay, I'm little bit to harsh, it was collaboration on the same conditions as monarchists in Yugoslavia did. Aka. collaborated in some periods, fought in other.
Zachary Cruz
They did not fight Germany. When Germany took Ukraine, then they collaboraited with it. When they lost battle of Stallingrad, Ukrainians said, that there is no point to fight them... Tey will collapse anyway. But they started to make throubles on the Ukraine, and Germans could not allow it, so they started to fight it - they made even Polish police, to fight against it, so Ukrainians started. So fights with Germans was initiated by Germans...
Andrew Nelson
>Pilsudski's socialists were losing power to Dmowski's nationalists who wanted a self-contained Poland, not interventionist Poland like Pilsudski. You get it all wrong.
ND wanted small Poland dominated by ethnic Poles out of special sort of idealism(they believed that due to economic ties with other countries they don't need huge strong state to defend themselves since attacking neutral country like Poland would give no gains to the attacker) while Pilsudski/PPS were more into the idea of building incredibly strong state or federation resembling the old Commonwealth in border shape to defend themselves from German and Russian imperialism.
Of course there was a question of voters behind all of it - ethnic Poles lived on areas much larger than the ones Poland held after 1921 but one of the reason why they've stopped was that ND was reluctant to get more "minority voters" on board. ND had huge support in parts of Russia where Poles were the dominant nationality while having much, much lower support among anybody that wasn't Pole or didn't live under Tzar. So the reason why they wanted "small" Poland wasn't some geopolitical shenanigans but a calculation that with borders like that they will always win every election. It worked in both ways but while Pilsudski/PPS could give good excuse for doing it(the bigger, the stronger, the safer), ND could just pretend that Poland is TOTALLY Switzerland and nobody will want to attack them if they'll be neutral.
What is probably the funniest thing about it is that modern Polish nationalists generally consider the "small Poland" policy to be huge mistake and its influence on the peace treaty(Poland could've asked for much more) as a disaster for several millions ethnic Poles left on their own behind what became Soviet Union's western border.
Hudson Brooks
But Dmowski wanted bigger Poland - just look at Dmowski's map. And when they had smaller Poland, why they threathed miniorty that way? Nationalist was one of the worst things, that Poland suffered.
Cameron Ward
Soviet partisans and their achievements were generally blown way out of proportion, especially their actions in Ukraine, but it's not exactly due to popular support or lack of it (though there wasn't much support for Soviets in the beginning of the war at all), mostly just because majority of Ukrainian land is a fucking steppe or steppe with some small forests surrounding it, unlike Belarus which is basically one huge swamp where there were many more partisans operating. Also Soviets were extremely brutal to people who lived through German occupation, claiming to be a partisan was a good way to provide yourself with some insurance and get some benefits after the war.
There were Soviet guerrillas in Ukraine, though, mainly in Sumy region since it's mostly forests. That's where Sydir Kovpak's grouping originated from, later it extended its operations to the West.
The other territory suitable for guerrilla warfare was of course Western Ukraine because it's got a lot of forests and some mountains. That's where OUN-B started building its Ukrainian Insurgent Army. It's true that there were many groups at first like this guy said but in the end OUN-B strongarmed most of them into their own organization. However, not all OUN-B members were in the army and vice versa.
OUN-B was an organization worthy of its time, meaning it was quite radical in achievement of its goals. They also tried collaborating with the Germans in order to get them to recognize independent Ukraine. I very much doubt they believed them in any way since they weren't stupid and they have already had an example of what Germans thought of Ukrainian independence with Carpatho-Ukraine. One way or another, Germans didn't like OUN-B's plans and started cracking down on them. Plenty of OUN-B (and OUN-M, a more moderate branch which was perfectly fine with collaboration) agents infiltrating occupational administrations were executed, their leader himself got thrown into Sachsenhausen.
Brayden Jenkins
Ukrainian Insurgent Army grew to be a formidable force, at its height operating way beyond the regions of Volhynia and Galicia, pic related. However, it still was a guerrilla movement, not a proper army, so it mostly focused on gaining control over territories in the countryside.
Most of its Eastern groupings got crushed when Soviet Army started its offensive West but it still managed to remain a decently powerful force, stopping organized military resistance around 1954. However, funny thing is that while Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought almost everyone, the organizations they had almost no conflict with were Hungarians and Soviet Army itself. NKVD's Internal Troops are a whole different story.
>But they killed a whole bunch of Poles so Maciej was a good boi Start shit, get hit. I can go into deeper arguments how nobody actually organized anything from Ukrainian side, mass killings were mutual, Poles blew the number of victims out of proportion (first it was 30k, then 100k, now more than 100k), Polish treatment of Ukrainians was abysmal in Second Polish Republic with pacification alone being abhorrent and Poles in Volhynia were colonists but I'll just get pictures of dead gypsies and emotional rants so fuck that.
With that said, >So Veeky Forums, what percentage of Ukrainian partisans were completely pro-Soviet? Not that many. In fact, OUN underground network was extremely widespread as far as the region of Donetsk with Soviets being unsuccessful even there so that can show you the general public support. >What percentage were nationalist and revolted against the USSR following WWII? I'd say there were more of them. >And what percentage of anti-Soviet Ukrainian insurgents collaborated with the Nazis? While OUN-B did collaborate at first and many former collaborators joined Insurgent Army later, it was primarily an army of local villagers.
Dylan Hill
Pics
Easton Rodriguez
Yeah few Ukrainians were all >HURR DURR OH BOY I WANNA BE A NAZI Most were just >GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU DAMN RUSKIES and >THANKS FOR STARVING US TO DEATH FOR THE PAST TEN PLUS YEARS YOU SOVIET FAGGOTS
Benjamin Price
Oh yes, and nearly all Ukrainians were like >HALLELUJAH WE CAN OPEN OUR CHURCHES AGAIN AND PRAY IN THE OPEN WITHOUT SOME STALINIST GOON TAKING US OFF TO THE GULAG
Christian Bennett
what the fuck is this pic
Gabriel Ross
Ways, how Ukrainians murdered Poles. They used the most brutal ways, so Poles could see, that they are nor welcome, and that they should escape. Even in Polish-Ukrainians married couples spouses was forced to kill other one, or they got killed.
Dominic Taylor
that's fuck up, i understand now why poles hate so much ukrainian on this site.
Evan Gray
HOL UP
*BURNS VILLAGE*
Y’ALL BE SAYIN’ *KILLS CIVILIANS*
SO Y’ALL BE SAYIN’
*COLLABORATES WITH INVADERS*
SO Y’ALL BE GOSH DARN SAYING
*PRAISES MURDERERS AND RAPISTS*
YOU ARE GOSH DIDDLY DARN SAYIN’
*BLAMES EVERYONE FOR HIS OWN MISTAKES*
WE
*STEALS LAND*
WERE COSSACKS
*STARTS CIVIL WAR*
AN’ BLYAT SUKA?!
Andrew Martinez
This genocide is a history, but the thing is, that now the biggest hero of Ukraine is Bandera. You can not even call him a murdere, because in Ukraine it is a crime...
Sebastian Garcia
>*STEALS LAND* Breslau, Peremyshl and Belostok would like to have a word with you.
Joshua Kelly
You mean Wrocław, Przemyśl and Białystok my friendo :^)
Nathaniel Walker
>declare war >lose it HOW COULD THEY TAKE MY LAND?!?!?!?!
Daniel Powell
>Start shit, get hit. I can go into deeper arguments how nobody actually organized anything from Ukrainian side, mass killings were mutual, Poles blew the number of victims out of proportion (first it was 30k, then 100k, now more than 100k), Polish treatment of Ukrainians was abysmal in Second Polish Republic with pacification alone being abhorrent and Poles in Volhynia were colonists but I'll just get pictures of dead gypsies and emotional rants so fuck that. Oh you little fucker, lying piece of banderite apologist shit.
Adam Jones
daily reminder that Stepan Bandera was in a concentration camp from 1941 to 1944 and did nothing wrong
Henry Nguyen
>did nothing wrong Top kek.
Tyler Foster
Yeah... Excluding terrorost attack in Poland, burning Polish houses, taking guns from soviets to make a rebel in 1939, and Lviv pogroms. Mel Gibson should direct a "Brave Heart II" but this time about Bandera...
Elijah Edwards
>Start shit, get hit. You started shit, and u said a shit... Any proofs would be ok, like.......MASS KILLINGS......
Juan Collins
Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists was literally supported and funded on Polish soil by the Nazi military intelligence agency Abwehr before the war.
Brody Baker
Yea... Germany supported UPA - I heard that even before '38 - but Russia did the same - anti-polish movement was good for them - and they was German's ally. Many polish soldiers - of course after '89 started to talk, that they used to find russian guns, even with instructions in Ukrainians homes, during retread to Romania...
Jordan Scott
Yeah... Poland lost much land, many towns/cities with Polish heritage.
Adam Russell
Yea... If you will look at this map, you will understant, why nationalizm was so shity idea...
Angel Jenkins
Ukrainian identity became a real thing first in the mid 19th century, promoted by the Austrians and Germans. And the Ukrainian state is really a German creation of these two, for the role of being a food basket for Germany during WW1. youtube.com/watch?v=8YUabqlxuPo
Gavin Foster
I think, that more by Austrians - Germans had nothing do do with Ukrainians. Dīvide et īmpera - Divide and rule - worked pretty well even then... Austria even sent polish army far from Lviv to start conflict since beginning...
Christopher Young
>Germans had nothing do do with Ukrainians. That's BS. They were in the process of creating an Ukrainian puppet state during WW1, while Ukraine has never existed before. >Dīvide et īmpera - Divide and rule - worked pretty well even then... Exactly. This process set in motion the beginning of such a state in 1918, but the Austrians by partitioning Poland created the base for such an identity to be formed. If Poland wasn't partitioned in 1795 Ruthenians or Ukrainians would be just an subgroup of Poles just like Silesians or Pomeranians. >Austria even sent polish army far from Lviv to start conflict since beginning... What army and when?
P.S.: Ukraina: U+kraina - U kresu krainy - U krańcu krainy Korony Królestwa Polskiego, Rzeczypospolitej Obojga Narodów. Ukraine: At+borderland - At the borderland of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Noah Sullivan
Keep in mind that prior to the Soviet Period pretty much none of the significant cities in what would later become Ukraine had a majority Ukrainian population. Most in the west had a Polish majority and the eastern and southern cities were mostly Russian.
Cities being one of the primary breeding grounds for nationalism this meant that the sense of Ukrainian nationhood was also rather weak.
Jason Sullivan
>Cities being one of the primary breeding grounds for nationalism this meant that the sense of Ukrainian nationhood was also rather weak. Exactly, that's why this "fake" Ukrainian identity was pushed on the peasants by the empires - first Austrian then German: to weaken Russia and to diminish the possibility of recreating a strong pre-partition Poland.
Leo Long
how did they achieve this on the Russian side of the border?
Justin Johnson
I'm talking about mostly the Austrian partition of Poland. It's there where that identity grew and became the strongest. Of course, became to grow in core Ukraine as well.
Isaiah Miller
>They were in the process of creating an Ukrainian puppet state during WW1 Yea, but to use Ukrainians nationalists, not to rule them. >What army and when? I heard, that Piłsudski's, when they knew, that Austria will fall....
Aaron Collins
>Yea, but to use Ukrainians nationalists, To use the land. >I heard, that Piłsudski's Before he rebelled right?
Levi Campbell
>Before he rebelled right? I think so... >To use the land. Farmers did not care, whose lands, are those... Nationalist cared, and they were used as soldiers... Farmers did not know, what "Ukraina" means... If u got more guns in Ukraine, than the rest, then you got it...
