Deus Ex: Bartender Isaac debate

DE: HR had the televised debate between you and the leader of the Purity First party. I can't remember anything about it besides the fact that if you fuck up your argument you end up resorting to personal attacks and insults about his dead wife.

It would have been better commentary on the modern age to have those shitty mob rousing tactics be a victory.

>the dialogue is mostly nonsensical
Are you some sort of illiterate? What about the dialogue doesn't make sense? It's pretty straightforward.

I like HR but it's so limited in scope compared to the original. Everything is about human augmentation. It's all people talk about, all they care about and the motivations of the majority of the characters center around whether or not they're pro- or anti-aug. Human augmentation was a theme of the first game, but it was one of many.

You have to remember that human augmentation was a brand new thing for the era HR is set in. It's the main focal point of all current affairs, to many it was the boogeyman, other, humanity's savior.

The original Deus Ex is set decades after when new things arise - notably Grey Death - after augmentation is just an accepted thing like Smart devices are to us,

>Did the bartender have a point?
No.
>Will strong government one day be the only way to protect people from globalism and corporate control of the economy?
Yes.

Interest. Unfortunately,

>For the purpose of determining what is history, please do not start threads about events taking place less than 25 years ago. Historical discussions should be focused on past events, and not their contemporary consequences. Discussion of modern politics, current events, popular culture, or other non-historical topics should be posted elsewhere.

Please read the sticky before posting further.

>"yeah dude, lack of government is why corporations take over!"
>"it's definitely nothing like corporate bailouts, lobbying, and arbitrary laws created by politicians that allow corporations to take over."

This isn't history though, this is definitely a humanities thread. Plus people are actually having a constructive discussion.

>state has a monopoly on violence
>corporations bribe government
>state has no monopoly on violence
>corporations become government

The only way to avoid this is to abolish private enterprise.

Otherwise, you just hope that your system does a good job of managing the problems caused by perverse incentives.

>state has no monopoly on violence

Which is something that never happened

That's the point you dingus, the politicians have been subverted by the corporations and act as little more than another kind of employee. When even the President must woo corporate money to secure power, none in the government have the ability to challenge corporations.

An Authoritarian regime where the glorious leader answers to no one, or the oligarchs in general do not, the power of corporations can be effectively curtailed. Consider what Putin has been able to do to the billionaire technocrats in Russia in the last 15 years. All their money and influence did not save them.

Of course, that brings its own problems.

>Which is something that never happened
Isnt colonialism by a dominant power on a weaker state lead to monoply turning to the colonizers, e.g British East India Company.

>When even the President must woo corporate money to secure power, none in the government have the ability to challenge corporations.

theres still hope...

Any of you dweebs going to buy the new one?

isnt is dropping the complex shadow government conspiracy theory stuff in favor of lame gayass identity politics bullshit?

>buying games

I'm not a retard, I'll just pirate it

Putin is corrupted as fuck. Apparently he is the richest man in russia and the country is still backwards because they didnt develop anything except infrastructures for oil and gas.

Enlightened dictatorships has always been depicted as the alternative to the weak democracy but history shows that democracy is much stronger than people think and dictators are almost always corrupted cunts who dont give two shit about their country.

For my part I think the final alternative to both democracy and dictatorship would be an AI based state where programs would be responsible of supervising economy to avoid the problems depicted here

As a dialogue its shit from the perspective of how real conversations between people take place but from the perspective of using characters to transmit different ideas to the player and enriching the game world its great.
Both are mutually exclusive by the way.

It does have small nuances that add flavo to the main character, for example when Denton says "I give up".

The last one was horrible. Both in terms of aesthewtics and the overall plot and story.
There is no way Modern AAA titles can produce anything like deus ex.
Only indie titles.

>you need a strong man leader to end corporations
Or, you know, an educated consumer.

>an educated consumer.
With an ability to coordinate descisions with other consumers and make sure everyone follows through.

...

The problem with covert pretend dictators is that their reign isnt assured and thus they must assure it through subversion and must mantina power otherwise their followers will persecute them.
A dictator like putin is essentially acting in an ilegal way even according to the rules and laws of his own country and this is the problem.
Pretend democracy is really the worst of all worlds.

A dictator with assured reign is better because he is legitimized. As in, a ruler that was voted to remain in power for a long period of time and given extensive power legally.
This means he cannot be later persecuted as easily.

Lel kiddo. Trump is a massive corporate slave. He's on Hillary's level.

...

Even an educated consumer is powerless in case of monopolies.

Elected dictator is a great solution I have to admit. Roman republic was clever and it worked well until of course one of the guys concentrated too much power. Problem of dictatorship is that there is no guarantee, no safeguards in case something goes wrong

the voice acting in this was awful

I actually loved it, completely devoid of emotion, IIRC it was like that on purpose.

What a shame...

Playing it when you are 13 and can barely speak english and skipping half the dialogues is quite the non-experience. My first buyers remorse, and I bought the bootleg pirated CD for like a buck.

Yeah, it was. This scene and the Morpheus dialogue had a big effect on me as a kid, regardless.

Individuals tend to be weaker than groups. In order to protect themselves they tend to need to form their own groups.

Whether these groups are named corporations or governments is relatively irrelevant, you have one individual advocating fear of one certain type of group in favor of another type of group.

See step 4 of the post you replied to.

I played it as a 14 year old with a complete Czech localization except for voice.

Fuck you, OP. Now I've got to reinstall Deus Ex again.

Thanks, that pseudo-intellectual fact everybody already knew contributed much to the discussion.

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Deus Ex: Bartender Isaac debat(...)
08/11/16(Thu)17:36:11 No.1535334
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>China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing to give its people the freedom to do what they want

This is nonsensical

Do you have autism?

Anonymous
08/12/16(Fri)13:14:49 No.1539025
(You) #
Do you have autism?

Noo do not

Are you doing this shit on purpose?

Do you tealy think both paths of transmitting that idea are mutually exclusive? Pls explain i am very interrested.

God, Deus Ex was such a great game.

When I played this game as a teenage libertarian this dialogue really made me think

>after neoliberalism wrecks the west.
I think neoliberalism is wrecking the whole world, man.

PRC is neoliberal too.

Neo-liberalism places a focus on economic growth over other concerns. It argues that this is beneficial to society at large despite the fact that it tends to ignore environmental constrains and other social issues. It encourages individuals and the state to comply to market dynamics in order to benefit the corporate elite. Whenever we talk about outsourcing public services to the private sector, making people pay for them as consumers, using tax money to save the banks, expecting universities to mainly build workforce and support corporate research, holding closed door meetings about free trade and G# submits, presenting new products as a solution to social and environmental issues, we are talking about neo-liberalism. Is neoliberalism not inevitable in capitalism as we develop more and more efficent means of communication?

I disagree with JC Denton and the Australian man. Neoliberalism has been the new norm in practically the whole world for awhile: movement to free trade on a global scale, limited role of government with central banks playing the largest economic role in a state not government stimulus, acceptance of the power of corporations over the state and a stress of private ownership of as much of a economy has possible, strong influence of individual freedoms, and deregulation of markets plus belief that market systems will correct imbalances.

youtube.com/watch?v=1b-bijO3uEw

Was he right? Is this sociological assessment true or not?

>PRC is neoliberal too.
Lel. Over 25% of China's economy is in the public sector.

I wrote my response, but lost it. Dammit. I will write it again.

The computer AI, Morpheus, is indeed correct. Our sense of self is created from intersubjectivity, and it needs the judgments and observations of the "Other" in order to form higher-tiers of meaning. The dissolution of self is tantamount to the collapse of one's entire social fabric, since narratives are produced entirely internally. Many leftists dabble in Buddhist epistemology and metaphysics in order delegitimize social foundation as being illusory and baseless, as a way to justify their heinous Stirner-like individualism.

I agree, that killing a benevolent king is tantamount to killing one's self, considering he keeps order and allows for the flourishing of one's unique identity. I propose, as a preemptive measure, to kill all leftists, especially those into Deleuze, as a way to bring about the fascist Transhumanist age where the Computer AI will lead us to a utopia. Nick Land provides us the best route to our future, "Dark Enlightenment".

>The computer AI, Morpheus, is indeed correct. Our sense of self is created from intersubjectivity, and it needs the judgments and observations of the "Other" in order to form higher-tiers of meaning. The dissolution of self is tantamount to the collapse of one's entire social fabric, since narratives are produced entirely internally. Many leftists dabble in Buddhist epistemology and metaphysics in order delegitimize social foundation as being illusory and baseless, as a way to justify their heinous Stirner-like individualism.
>I agree, that killing a benevolent king is tantamount to killing one's self, considering he keeps order and allows for the flourishing of one's unique identity. I propose, as a preemptive measure, to kill all leftists, especially those into Deleuze, as a way to bring about the fascist Transhumanist age where the Computer AI will lead us to a utopia. Nick Land provides us the best route to our future, "Dark Enlightenment".

It is. Human revolution did it too, but it was slightly more subtle about it. I miss crazy conspiracy Deus Ex.

Only idiots resist globalization, since it's an inevitable process brought about of natural matters of trade and exchange.

As for "corporate control of the economy" having a state sitting like a toad on a log over the economy is no different. Whether we call our masters CEOs, Presidents, or Kings, they're still basically just corporations in charge of our economy.

But the fact remains that no matter who is in charge, people will still function in a basically anarchistic fashion. There will always be domains they have no control over. We are all just lice scurrying about on the belly of the leviathan.

The point is, we need to be doing human experimentation on ISIS members and other terrorists to bring about the transhumanist age faster. Invasive neuroptogenetic experiments in vivo on ISIS members would yield incredible experimental data.

>inevitable process

Whigtard pls go

Objectively yeah, it's badly acted. It fits perfectly with the atmosphere though, I wouldn't want to play a version redone with good VAs.

It's not a matter of "some course of history" or some shit. It's a matter of fact that trade will always remain desirable and essential to the function of a modern economy, so increased interplay and integration between interacting nation states is going to happen as a matter of convenience. You can attempt to stall it, but all you'll accomplish is stifling your economy and starving your people.

We need a neoliberalism that is all about bringing about the postcyberpunk future. We should all experiment on terrorists to yield data on the brain and make sentient Computer AIs and stuff. Even if we destroy the environment, we can upload our minds to the virtual heaven.

The inevitable consequence of accepting this as 'progress' is that the concept of 'your people' will be wiped out in short order. I'd rather take my chances at being poor and continue existing, thanks.

>yfw we live in a cyberpunk future without all the cool shit

This bothers me deeply

"Your people" don't actually exist. The idea is nothing more than a phantasm. Why would anyone willingly sacrifice their own well-being and prosperity over something so idiotic? More importantly, why would they sacrifice the well-being and prosperity of everyone else in their country over something so idiotic?

There is no cool shit in cyberpunk other than the aesthetics and you can have those if you move to HK or Singapore or something.

>'your people' will be wiped out
Not that user but big deal desu. If we need a reason to do human augmentation, particle physics, particle physics, quantum computing and space exploration, the reason is to preserve the species. There is no "people." Whoever survives survives. The Scattering will occur.

Transhumanism is the most fedora ideology this planet has ever seen, alongside technocracy.

We're never going to agree, so let's just not bother eh?

Nah, I enjoy highlighting how idiotic such beliefs are. But I appreciate your concession.

You would rather see your own children starve than give up some superficial trappings of your culture because you've become possessed by a delusion. It's sad.

I used to think transhumanism was stupid but I realized I didn't have any sensible criticisms, by reaction came from an idealistic part of me that wished ideology was important and people still went to church, but that's as much a fantasy as the transhumanists' blade runner world. The only difference is time goes forwards and not backwards.

"Your" people is just a fabrication manufactured by the brain. The way we define this world does not conform with it wholly -- just mental representations. This world, apart from mental representation, is like an emergent dynamic process, without any core which we can call "I". It is only a mental representation that fosters the illusion of a cogent, stable world, but this illusion, itself, is real... We should hypostatize it within the virtual realm wherein we upload our minds to make it to where there is nothing but the reality of illusion itself. Otherwise the Heraclitean fiery flux of reality will continue to mock you.

Lol, we wrote similar things. Check here:

It's a fairly common sentiment, and ultimately a sensible one. The funny thing about his position is that his attempt to preserve this abstraction basically amounts to placing his throne on the beach and ordering the tide to not come in.

I say we bring back our traditions but in postcyberpunk clothing.

For example, Zoroastrian postcyberpunk. Only in the virtual can one experience the bliss of Ahura Mazda. This world is nothing but Ahriman, and we must escape into the fantasy of the virtual havens to bring forth the reified illusion of GoD.

The Antichrist is Christ, the Saoshyant is the Prince of Darkness -- we must destroy this world to make a better one anew. There is no greater pleasure than to kill God and mold one in our own image.

Great, now the LARPers arrived and the thread might as well be dead

I've no use for snotty condescension, get your validation somewhere else m8.

The fabricated mental representations are the only thing that matter. Any preference you have for being disillusioned is just as much a matter of blind feels as anything a bible-thumper could come out with.

>The fabricated mental representations are the only thing that matter.
EXACTLY! But this world is indifferent to our mental representations! This world is nothing but a blind movement with no teleology! This is why we ought to create virtual havens, idiosyncratic to the preferences of each individuals (i.e., it can change its parameters to the person's preferences).

We can upload our minds into the virtual haven, and all this requires is abandoning conventional morality and doing research in vivo on the brains of terrorists and ISIS members. We need MORE neoliberalism and emphasis on STEM fields.

>I've no use for snotty condescension, get your validation somewhere else m8.
>I have no argument and so will criticize the tone of yours.

Ok then.

"I love telling you how stupid you are" is not a discussion. Act like an adult or try someone else.

>Apparently he is the richest man in russia

Lmao nowhere near

>PRC is neoliberal too.

>since it's an inevitable process

economist.com/news/special-report/21587384-forward-march-globalisation-has-paused-financial-crisis-giving-way

The world has become less globalized since 1910. Especially in movement of labor.

He is, just not officially. Owns around 80 billion.