What is Veeky Forumss opinion on Chrislam?

It's like peeing on your shit after shitting it.

The only way for world peace

Pagan africans are hilarious

There's no boundaries with them

I knew a Nupe Imam who'd be all "durka durka" by day but after dark went full ooga booga spirit worship and drum dancing

He saw no contradiction "What? The Quran is obvious: the djinn of nature are Allah's creation

>unapologetic pan-abrahamism completely ignoring the cultural shifts and historical events that informed the theologies
>What is Veeky Forumss opinion on Chrislam?

triggered. Thats my opinion.

This

Fuck off. I'd love to see Abrahamic nonsense blend into a western version of Hinduism.

add some buddhism to that

We missed our chance for a western Hinduism when Christianity choked out all the Greco-Roman cults, mystery cults, Germanic pagans, etc.

Ideologically impossible.

But a nice idea to sort out Africa, just hope no one reads into it.

how about we create a new religion with Islamic and Christian influences?

Never heard of it before so thanks for bringing it to attention. For now I think it's contradictory and they might as well just be Bahaí adherents since those guys worship all abrahamic prophets but atleast have reasons to back up why.

Complete nonsense

So this is a faith that Muslims adopt after spending years in a Christian country?

Obviously Christians in Islamic countries don't convert to this because they are too busy being beheaded.

Whats the point in that? Also there's already Bahai

You sound butthurt my friend

As long as it rejects shariah, then this could be a reasonable way to civilize the sandlot.
The only barrier to it working is the call to kill all reformationists and converts inherent in islam.

Seems legit. Hope it takes off, it'd be nice to have yet another insane Abrahamic faith in the mix, especially in a place like Africa that literally doesn't already have enough problems.

>children are circumcised

pepe.jpg

>The only barrier to it working is the call to kill all reformationists and converts inherent in islam.

Chrislamics consider themselves to be muslims (as well as christians) so this isn't a problem.

The issue is with actual muslims.

You people are the most delusional idiotic people I've ever seen post

>wallah!! We justa smoosh em together and everbody happy!! XD

Islam is already a clusterfuck and a mess that borrows (supposedly but not really) from Judaism and Christianity (yeah, somehow both, even though they're now completely different).

Just so fucking stupid

fundie pls

Do you actually think Chrislam was invented by the people ITT?

M8 you can neither read nor comprehend the evolution of religion

Sounds heretical as fuck but then again something coming from
>Nigeria
Enough said. Propelled to the garbage can it is.

>muh buddhism

All religions are heresies of earlier religions

'no'

No, but a lot of posts are:

>yeah, that sounds breddy gud. I have no attachment to any religion and only try to understand them rationally unlike these people who have deep convictions in these beliefs that strongly oppose each other fundamentally, but yeah, this sounds breddy gud like it could work XD

Embarrassingly stupid to be honest

WE

Literally no-one ITT has anything positive to say, apart from "might be better than regular Islam".

Religious people are stupid

I've scammed retards into following my retarded pseudo-gnostic faith for money before

*tips fedora*

Heresy

*counts money*

Absolutely heretical

>Ideologically impossible.

This doesn't stop people from believing in it apparently.

Absolutely haram.
You can't be muslim and reject parts of the Qur'an to fit your own beliefs. That's not how it works. These people are delusional. They are clearly not muslims no matter how much they try to say they are. Damn kuffars.

It's not like there is anything else to say...

Divinity is close to being airlifted from hell to heaven

WE WUZ GENTILES AND SHIT

No you haven't

And those hypothetical people weren't religious anyways

Technically that was Muhammad's goal anyway, combining Arab Judaism, Arab Christianity, and the Arab Abrahamic movement around them, into an alliance to spiritually cleanse themselves in time for Judgement Day.

What would be the point of it? Isnt Islam just a continued development from 7th century christianity?

Jesus will kill all the Jews.

>came about to discourage syncretism in Late Antiquity
Yes, but Islam came about in late antiquity and from the very beginning refuted the divinity of jesus.

Sources from the Quran-
5.17
5.72
9.31
19.30 - 35
Also reference all of Al-Ikhlas (sura 112)
1. Say, ‘He is Allah, the One.
2. Allah is the All-embracing.
3. He neither begat, nor was begotten,
4. nor has He any equal

The rejection of Christ's divinity is kinda central to Islamic belief and that fact that it came about right after the Church had stomped out Arianism and Islam took hold in the former Arian Strongholds is telling.

Chrislamics consider Jesus to be a Prophet, not God.

>The rejection of Christ's divinity is kinda central to Islamic belief
A certain interpretation of the above verses to be a rejection of Christ's divinity is central to the development of Islam, you mean. Like you yourself said, non-orthodox Christian views varied wildly on the question of Christ's nature, and the view later Islam took may have been something taken to an extreme in order to completely divorce its theology from Christianity.

You don't mix something beautiful with dirt. Islam does not belong there or here.

It's very clear that Mohammed (piss be upon him) didn't think Jesus was God, and in fact he had no real understanding of Christianity at all, thinking it was polytheistic because of the Trinity.

He was right.

More like the Christians around him weren't the same as the Christians in Constantinople, Rome, or Alexandria.

There were no Christians around him. Possibly he met some when travelling as a merchant, but his general ignorance of the religion suggests he only had second or third hand accounts to go by.

No, there were definitely Christians around him, with both Quranic and Hadith sources mentioning direct dealings with them, and especially if Muhammad was actually a preacher in northern Arabia and not Mecca like some historians think.

It's far more plausible that, living on the edge of the Byzantine Empire, Muhammad was living amongst heterodox Christians who would have been pushed out of the empire by orthodox belief.

>They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
Quran 5:72

It's even clearer in arabic friend. This is from one of the later Medinian verses so even if it wasn't apparent in the first formative years of Islam then it was made very clear during the prophets lifetime. (as historians accept the Quran as a contemporary document to Muhammad) [meme historians like Tom Holland don't count]

This is an interesting side and not historically reputable
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State

If that's so then I guess I misunderstand the purpose of Chrislam

Pretty fucking heterodox if they denied the divinity of Jesus and thought the Trinity was polytheism.

>historical fiction
>legitimate source
>accepted by 'historians'
The ride never ends...

>If that's so then I guess I misunderstand the purpose of Chrislam

It's two separate movements, each with it's own charismatic leader. Think of it as a new cult, like Bahai. It has no "point" beyond gaining new converts.

Considering how Arianism and the Ebionites were a real thing, and how the Quran directly references Gnostic gospels, it's not that big a leap. It's certainly more plausible than the idea that Arabia, which had a Christian client king to the north and once had a Jewish Yemenite kingdom that was crushed for their subjugation of Christians, and was across a narrow sea from Christian Ethiopia, would have little contact with Christianity in the 7th century.

No, there were plenty of Christians and Jews in the Arabian peninsula. Waraqah: cousin of Muhammad's wife Khadijah was a nestorian priest.

Pre-Islamic Arabia was a hodge-podge of religion. The Lakhimids and Ghassanids to the north were Eastern Christians. You had Sassanid influence so Zoroastrianism was present and to a lesser extent Manichaeism. Yemen had also been a battleground for the Christian Axumites (ethiopia) and the Sassanids only 50 years before the prophet. Judaism was also wide-spread and during the prophets life time he made allies and/or enemies of various different Jewish tribes.

The arabian peninsula was far more diverse than you realize son.

Tom Holland is a meme historian, but he doesn't say the Quran wasn't contemporary to Muhammad. The Meccan-Medinan dichotomy is similarly useless here as it's based entirely on later supposition by 9th century Muslims looking to make sense of the book alongside the narrative being constructed out of Hadith collections.

You will notice that all of these verses aren't so much rejections of Christ's divinity so much as they are rejections of his status as either God or a begotten aspect or associate of God. It's unclear whether this meant a total rejection of any divinity whatsoever or if the divine aspect of Jesus was viewed differently from the model we know. Whatever it was, Muhammad managed to get local Christians on board with it, and the interpretation we have of these verses today comes much later.

>historical fiction
>legitimate source
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Parisino-petropolitanus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript

All I'm saying is we can more or less date the manuscript of the Quran to being at least near-contemporary with the supposed personage of Muhammad (within 15 years).

One of these early manuscripts contains the verse I quoted refuting Jesus' divinity. It's safe to assume the early Muslims also rejected this idea and saw themselves as a very separate group to the Christians.

>Tom Holland doesn't say the Quran wasn't contemporary to Muhammad

Dude... You did read "In the Shadow of the Sword" right? Tom Holland literally says that Muhammad was not a real historical figure and says the Quran was written one to two hundred years after the earliest known fragments have been radio-carbon dated...

I have a PDF copy open right now, and no, that's not what the book was about at all. Are you sure you both read and understood it yourself? Holland's point (really the point of actual modern historians of Islam in the last three decades he just compiled) was that Muhammad was a real figure who left behind scattered texts of prophesies, but that it wasn't until about half a century later that it was compiled as a single text, the Quran, and for political reasons.

Most of the book isn't even about Islam, but Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism in the 6th and 7th century.

His point was that Mohammad was wrong on all counts when it came to Christianity; that he relied on infancy gospels and gnostic gospels almost exclusively.

Everything about Christianity in the quran is false, and of course it explicitly denies in one sura the main points of Christianity itself:

Sura 4-157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

The point was that Muhammad wasn't talking about Christianity (tm) as defined by official church councils in Rome, but clearly about Christians that were living in Arabia. Similarly, the crucifixion verse was targeted not at Christians or Christian theology but at what local Arabian Jews seemingly believed about the event.

He was talking about Christianity as was whispered in his ear by satan.

He said that those Jews who thought they killed Jesus were wrong.

He said that Jesus was not crucified, did not die, and did not rise from the dead.

That is antichrist; that is exactly the opposite of what Christianity is.

You want to know what Chrislam is? It's a part of making all of the religions of the world into one religion, an "all paths lead to God" religion, a religion headed by the pope, the false prophet of Babylon, with help from demonic Marian apparitions.

These things are not philosophies.

These things include the actions of supernatural entities.

And here I was thinking you were serious. My mistake.

It's been 4 years since it was published and I read it. All I remember was Holland implying Islam was a fabrication descended from Himyarite Jewish thoughts as nothing more than a tool of empire building. A pretty irresponsible claim.

But as I said, my memory could be wrong because it's been a long time since I read it.

This person is the cancer that keeps Veeky Forums from being good.

Holland's point was that Islam is the Imperial reimagining of Muhammad's Believer movement by the Umayyads in their attempt to restructure the crumbling Arabian conquests into a unified empire.

Sounds like Shi'ism, or at least Alawite.

Quran should be read in syro-aramaeic. The arab version doesnt make sense in lots of places.

>Shi'ism
That's not how you spell schism.

I am deadly serious, and you are completely unprepared for what is happening next.

>unprepared for what is happening next.
You never know what's coming through that door.

If Jesus isn't god, it's not christian.