The Roman Catholic position is not that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father through the Son," it's that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as "ONE PRINCIPLE". And you can see what that indicates in Latin: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/principium#Latin
>Part of the formal process of conversion is clearly identifying the heresies of one’s previous confession and renouncing them. Heresy is from the devil, and all Christians are called upon by God to hate with righteous hatred all heresy. Use the chart below to write down Orthodox doctrines and next to them the doctrines of your former confession which are heretical. Be thorough.
Hypo static Union does note an Our Savior's physical form was created theough anal sex.
Heresy comes from Satan, Constantine.
Justin Johnson
Huh?
Isaiah Rogers
Redpill me on the difference between Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy
I kind of understand Catholicism vs Protestantism but I know L I T E R A L LY nothing about Orthodox
Matthew Harris
Orthodox basically don't accept the primacy of the pope. The Bishop of Rome and of Constantinople excommunicated each other in 1054 because they were sick of one trying to assert primacy over the other. Also various theological differences, but desu they were pretty minor at the start but grew from there with the Unam Sanctum bullshit from the Catholics among others.
Jason Morris
POST COMFY RUSSKI TSERKOV
Ethan Morris
The Orthodox define God differently, just to start with. In Orthodoxy, God's essence is beyond all human interface, whereas God's grace (or energies) is immanent; God's grace is described as light or fire, and it is required to nourish all existence. Hell, in Orthodoxy, for instance, is not separation from God, it is experience God's immanence as fire due to a poor relationship with him.
God himself does not feel any pain or emotion (except for the Son, who experiences these through his humanity). God does not get angry or sad, God is impassible. When God is described as angry or something like that, it rather intended as a description of *our* experience of God's energies.
Human nature is naturally corruptible, as in subject to pain and death (that included Christ's human nature). Human nature is only not this way when participating in God's energies in *synergism*. Thus the state of death after the fall, as nothing to do with our inheriting guilt, death is not a punishment, but something we all endure due to falling out. Even Mary went through that in Orthodoxy. So "Original Sin" is not something inherited, it is rather an event that severed our participation.
Catholicism does not understand God's essence and grace (God's grace is the same as his actions in Orthodoxy) as distinct, but views God as Actus Purus, a position that has no antecedent in the Church Fathers, but is taken 100% from Aristotle. The Orthodoxy, by contrast, see God's essence as immutable and unmovable, which goes directly against Actus Purus. Our goal is be more like God, to calm our minds and bodies and make them steady. In a way, Orthodox metaphysics are an INVERSION of the metaphysics of Heraclitus.
Anthony Mitchell
>Our goal is be more like God, to calm our minds and bodies and make them steady. This reminds me a lot of Stoicism. Care to comment on that?
Charles Richardson
Theosis and the emphasis on mystery(to be fair, this isn't something incompatible with the West alongside Theosis)
Then there's the whole theology of Icons and the rather perculiar view of man and creation in which both are in close relation to each other. The man is a microcosmos and the Creation(Cosmos) is a macroantropos. This idea is one I am quite unaware off existing in Catholic or Protestant Traditions
The work of Christ isn't seen in an overall legalistic sense of satisfying some legal obligation ala Anselm or that which is quite common amongst Protestants
There's also a whole liturgical theology where the liturgy and the church becomes icons of many things, such as of the human being and the universe.
There's the sense of the liturgy being part of God's work to heal creation
Jack Wilson
Any parallels between Chan Buddhism and Orthodoxy? Did the former influence the latter at all?Any cross-religion pollination? They sound very similar, Orthodox trying to approach God's grace by becoming mentally still, I would assume by removing desires and other worldly provocations, Chan/Zen does something similar, trying to reach enlightenment by completely calming your mind via meditation and removing desires.
It's extremely interesting that these two things developed independently, if they developed independently.
Gavin Perez
In a way it is, which was actually a problem because various theologians in later years thought the two systems of thought readily carried over, to the extent that they even thought the Logos of Christianity was the same as the one of Stoicism. Fortunately, thanks to the efforts of Maximos the Confessor, John of Damascus, and Emperor Justinian, Stoic theology was all but rooted out from Orthodox theology.
Stoic philosophy is very conducive to Christianity, but problems develop when you try to blend the metaphysical systems.
Carter Rodriguez
Orthodox try to approach God's grace by being more like God. The Orthodox conception of God as without emotion isn't unique to Orthodoxy, I'm pretty sure Jews and Muslims also subscribe to it. The difference is that the Orthodox believe in participating in God himself which Islam and Judaism don't, hence different goals; with that in mind, the idea of becoming free from the passions makes sense and doesn't need any Buddhist influence.
Landon Scott
how did orthodoxy survive communism? wasn't religion illegal?
Jeremiah Barnes
Orthodoxy sounds a lot like Neoplatonism. Any comments on that?
Charles Jones
In consequence of the Orthodox philosophy about passions, you'll notice the Orthodox never depict Christ suffering, either carrying or on the cross. If he's on the cross, the depiction will be of him already dead. That is because you're not supposed to get emotionally worked up over it, but you are supposed to be deeply affected (spiritually). You will notice a marked difference in Catholic art, which often accentuates the passions.
Adrian Hall
>Stoic philosophy is very conducive to Christianity, but problems develop when you try to blend the metaphysical systems. Is there anywhere I can read more about this? I'm Catholic, but I'm extremely attracted to Stoicism as a personal philosophy. That said, Stoicism just doesn't fulfill any spiritual needs, of which I have many.
As an aside, I find it interesting that the great civilizations and philosophies of the world have all grasped this idea of union with the divine through overcoming the passions. I'd even be inclined to say that there must be some common root, if it weren't for the fact that Aztec philosophy revolved around the same concept.
Jaxon Davis
It was originally replaced by a state-run "Living Church", but most of the faithful and clergy refused to cooperate (the clergy were either killed or locked up), with only a few clergy participating. But during Stalin's reign, he legalized the old Church again and gave back the parishes because he needed the Church for WWII, and most Russians didn't accept the Living Church. Still, this came at the cost of the Patriarch signing and oath of loyalty of the Orthodox Church to the Bolshevik state; consequently, virtually every other bishop excommunicated him, but Stalin still let them function. Most of the clergy who had defected to the Living Church had to do the penance of Apostates to come back.
For the rest of the existence of the USSR, the Church went through periods of oppression more or less, but they survived either by open or underground function.
Lincoln Hernandez
>The Orthodoxy, by contrast, see God's essence as immutable and unmovable, which goes directly against Actus Purus Develop more on how the conception of God as Actus Purus precludes the notion of him being immovable and immutable. Certainly, Catholics don't think God is movable and mutable?
Connor Cook
How? Because they believe in One God?
>Is there anywhere I can read more about this? I'm Catholic, but I'm extremely attracted to Stoicism as a personal philosophy. That said, Stoicism just doesn't fulfill any spiritual needs, of which I have many. Try Christ in Eastern Christian Thought, which explains this theology in depth, as well as chronicles the Church's battle against the spread of Platonist and Stoic metaphysics in her ranks.
Christian Scott
If God is pure act, then God is pure deed. That makes God deeds rather than doer.
Levi Moore
Christianity emerged from a Hellenistic context
Juan Edwards
Thank you!
Aiden Hughes
No, this is the vernacular sense of the word "act". In Aristotle and Aquinas, things are either in capacity or in "act", or potentiality and actuality. Potentiality is defined as the possibility of omething undergoing change or motion, and actuality, the realization of that possibility. Aristotle thought that the perfect being would have to be pure actuality because, in order to be perfect, he could not undergo any change. Pure act therefore is just this impossibility of undergoing motion and change.
Jordan Stewart
No problem.
It's actually the Latin sense. The "Prime Mover", for instance, is "Actus primus"., Aristotle conceives of unmoved movers as living lives.
Hudson Perry
Except the prime mover doesn't actually "move" anything. Things move toward him.
Christopher Wilson
Now I'm not trying to be confrontational or taking sides. But the fact is that Catholics don't believe God is movable or mutable. Orthodox apparently don't either, but there is obviously a difference between the two here so, if you could elaborate on the orthodox position a little bit more I would gladly hear it.
Oliver Myers
Nevermind the Aristotelian and Scholastic concepts, as they are clearly not your area of expertise. Rather focus on the Orthodox position.
Jackson Bennett
>Therefore animals are not always in continuous motion by their own agency: it is something else that moves them, itself being in motion and changing as it comes into relation with each several thing that moves itself. (Moreover in all these self-moving things the first movent and cause of their self-motion is itself moved by itself, though in an accidental sense: that is to say, the body changes its place, so that that which is in the body changes its place also and is a self-movent through its exercise of leverage.) Hence we may confidently conclude that if a thing belongs to the class of unmoved movents that are also themselves moved accidentally, it is impossible that it should cause continuous motion. So the necessity that there should be motion continuously requires that there should be a first movent that is unmoved even accidentally, if, as we have said, there is to be in the world of things an unceasing and undying motion, and the world is to remain permanently self-contained and within the same limits: for if the first principle is permanent, the universe must also be permanent, since it is continuous with the first principle.
Jonathan Garcia
Catholics see God's grace as created, Orthodox see it as uncreated and in fact God himself.
Cooper Russell
>requires that there should be a first movent that is unmoved even accidentally I guess I should say thanks for proving my point.
>Catholics see God's grace as created I don't quite get how this relates to the subject "God's essence as immutable and unmovable which goes directly against Actus Purus", there being a contradiction between the two.
Jace Russell
Do you happen to be OP? Why would someone start a thread to discuss Orthodoxy and yet when asked a legitimate question he would only responds with cryptic one-liners? I'm going to sleep by the way. I'll read the rest tomorrow.
Jaxon Sanchez
>I guess I should say thanks for proving my point. I'm not saying Aristotle doesn't say that, I'm saying it is incoherent from the perspective of Orthodox metaphysics
>I don't quite get how this relates to the subject "God's essence as immutable and unmovable which goes directly against Actus Purus", there being a contradiction between the two. God's grace is God's actuality (the word used by Aristotle in Greek is "energia", generally translated as "energies") in Orthodoxy, and the two are distinct. Actus Purus would mean pure energies.
Sorry, I'm a bit busy atm so I don't have time to type extensively
Justin Jenkins
>two are distinct essence and energies I mean
Ryan Kelly
>God's grace is God's actuality (the word used by Aristotle in Greek is "energia", generally translated as "energies") in Orthodoxy, and the two are distinct. Actus Purus would mean pure energies. Oh now I see the difference! Thank you for your time!
Gabriel Kelly
Mari El actually looks pretty comfy tbhlads
Kevin Johnson
Catholics are the mainstream christian thread, castrated and cucked over the years so it can stick around, because the alternative was killing it. Orthadoxy is the east's buttmad attempts at relevancy by making their own clubhouse if they won't be respected in the first one.Also castrated and cucked to survive the USSR. Protestantism is the north's buttmad attempt at relevancy by making their own clubhouse. It is not castrated, but its "followers" are, since they are protestant in name only.
Basically christianity is more or less dead, and whats left is centuries of compromise and losing ground. Kind of like the end of the western roman "empire", empire in name only, and not even roman, for it lost Rome.
Luke Moore
Christianity isn't really dead, serious Christianity was never intended to be a mainstream religion: "Many are called, few are chosen." When Christianity was a major thing, it had a lot more serious believers, but it also had hordes of completely nominal Christians. You can see the frustration Saint John Chrysostom has in this, he berates his congregation because they know the names of a bunch of chariot racers but they don't even know the names of the Apostles. This is what happens when Christianity is a state ideology. Christianity can be a state ideology, but it's not necessarily going to make people good Christians; Christianity is not like Islam, it expects a pretty radical lifestyle of extreme contrition and total forgiveness.
Austin Reyes
My girlfriend is a Yandere
Is that unhealthy relationship?
Jackson Lopez
Not sure what that is or why you'd ask for relationship advice on Veeky Forums.
Andrew Turner
Because you are the only one who can answer me as the most spiritually enlightened one
Easton Rogers
I'm not spiritually enlightened, ask your spiritual mentor.
Cameron Murphy
Ignore all the nominal christians. The church, the leaders, where christianity is meant to be the strongest, is weak today. So many laws broken. Gays, contraceptives, abortion, cloning, adultery, pedophilia, trading with infidels, and so on. Christianity had a strict set of rules, and it caused wars in Europe. Europeans decided that this shouldn't happen again, so either christianity had to change (become weaker and abandon its rules) or it had to be abolished and removed. So it became weaker, and it keeps becoming weaker and weaker. You say its for the chosen few, but every time a popular trend pops up and christianity has to take a stance, it takes the stance that will hopefully get more young people interested. You are wrong in your conviction that its a tightly knit group of vigilant believers, and a bunch of fanboys who don't get it circling around. It is a dying cult, and the cult masters are desperate for more members. Christianity is like a hardcore RPG game going casual free2play cash shop to get more people in. Has been for centuries.
Jason Morris
Catholicism = Western Roman Empire Orthodoxy = Eastern Roman Empire Protestantism = Autistic germans who actually read the bible
David Ross
I asked my priest about my girlfriend's habit of locking me in my room on occasion and her clinginess
He said that I should display the same self emptying love she is showing to me
He told me to read St John Chrysostom's sermon on marraige and happily asked us both to get married
Camden Diaz
EO is heresy, read your BIBLE
Nathaniel Cruz
Orthodox bible is different - it's a form of majority text.
Every single addition there is, and was observed and removed in critical editions - the orthodox bible contains it + bonuses.
Brandon Anderson
It adds books to the canon, incurring the curse of Revelation 22:18
Camden Lee
Orthodox Church is just an institution that during medieval times - just done anything that was profitable for it at any given time.
Or anything the king wanted once a theologian convinced him he was right.
Brandon James
The canon of the bible was in fact fluid and no closed canon was ever dogmatically pronounced, except by Trent and the Protestant Reformers.
Before that, differing churches have differing side content for their canons. All of which includes the deuterocanon with varying degrees.
The role of these books are secondary to the other books but are still Scripture nevertheless.
The Syrians NT have five books less
The ending of Revelations refers to anyone who dares alter the visions of the author
Kevin Hall
Do you think that this Orthodox Academic (and not in the sense that hes an academic that happens to be Orthodox) is correct in this article of his
It seems to remind me of the conspiracy things I read about the Catholics and Jesuits.
Joseph Jones
Why is there a "main church" for converts?
Also what proselytising works are the orthodox Church carrying out these days?
David Collins
If you are in UK or France, the Exarchate of Western Europe is your best bet alongside the Antiochians
I attend one of their parishes in Sussex
David Reyes
Curious outsider here. I'm currently reading about Maximus the confessor. I intend to do a thread about him in the near future. Hope to see you ortho fags and sympathizers there!
Cameron White
Which book?
I got the Oxford Handbook to him atm(courtesy of Bookos)
Michael Butler
...
Benjamin Jones
Christianity's bastion is in fact, the monasteries.
Dominic Stewart
Does it though? If the books were there originally it makes it the most correct if nothing else. The Catholic and Protestant translations remove texts, particularly the Protestant translations.
Oliver Ortiz
Is it true Eastern Orthodoxy got a rather depressing look on life?
(Been thinking of converting, p.s the answer to this question won't budge my mind don't worry, just asking)
Chase Stewart
It's really hard to explain the Orthodox perspective in Western philosophical terms. It's very mournful but it also believes morning and anguish bring us closer to God when done right, and in that it is joyous. Just like how Christ's, something very mournful, is the source of the life.
Handel's Messiah sort of encapsulates Western Christian joy. Well, this hymn encapsulates Orthodox Christian joy, it is considered the most joyous hymn we have and is known by all the Orthodox, because it is Christ's Resurrection hymn, "trampling down death by death". It might convey how we experience things differently: youtube.com/watch?v=_a6-u_6dZ8M
If you can, pick up a book called "Laurus", by Vodolazkin. It's a new novel, written by a Medieval academic, about a man who falls into grave sin in Medieval Russia (and worse, brings someone he loves into it with him, leading to tragic consequences), and his quest to repent for both himself and the one he loves, and how that transforms him into a Holy Fool.
Angel Reyes
just like how Christ's death, something very mournful
Julian Walker
Thank you, mate. I'll be sure to check the book out.
Zachary Campbell
Man and the Cosmos: the Vision of St. Maximus the Confessor
Jaxson Richardson
>The Roman Catholic position is not that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father through the Son," it's that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as "ONE PRINCIPLE". And you can see what that indicates in Latin
Okay, so how would you have answered the Heresy that is responsible for the Filioque even being a thing?
Xavier Reed
>Catholicism = Western Roman Empire >Orthodoxy = Eastern Roman Empire >Protestantism = Holy Roman Empire
Blake Davis
bumping for an answer on this
That doesnt really answer the questions in my post
Gabriel Peterson
>If the books were there originally it makes it the most correct if nothing else. They weren't
Jeremiah Williams
Atheist here. Since you all believe that "God exists", "God cares about human behavior", "The Bible is an accurate source of information about God, and "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", you must have some sort of rational method for determining which beliefs about God are true and which are false. Given this fact, explain why theological disputes such as this have gone on for centuries with no hope of resolution in sight.
Hard mode: Don't say that theological differences don't matter. Nightmare mode: No ad hominem attacks on Catholics, Protestants, or Orthodox Christians.
Jacob Price
Are you literally retarded? The answer is far too complicated to fit in a post. If you actually care, study theology.
Joseph Foster
Because their Liturgy is in English or whatever the Native tongue happens to be, and because they already have a ton of converts, so their atmosphere is more native than immigrant.
Quite a few missions and evangelist works are being carried out. Ancient Faith is the main site for Orthodox evangelism in America
James Ramirez
>you must have some sort of rational method for determining which beliefs about God are true and which are false.
They do not. They take it on faith that the bible contains divine revelations and that the bishops/pope have authority granted by God to interpret it
Jaxon Price
>Because their Liturgy is in English or whatever the Native tongue happens to be, and because they already have a ton of converts, so their atmosphere is more native than immigrant.
Is there any documents or papers on the demographics/statistics and nature of these converts?
>Ancient Faith is the main site for Orthodox evangelism in America
Is this the primary method of gaining converts? from what ive seen on the site it seems rather parochial / something that preaches to the converted.
Do you have any materials on those other evangelist works going on in the West?
Liam Gutierrez
>weebs trolling reminds me of something similar that happened on Veeky Forums but I can't quite remember the details.
Ryan Morris
>tfw raised in orthodox family >tfw used to be edgy atheist >tfw discovered Zen Buddhism, Hermetics, Qabbalah, Taoism, etc. >tfw studying philosophy and religion in-depth, everything from gnosticism and the pre-socratics to deleuze and contemporary philosophy of min >tfw found God >tfw making a full circle back to Orthodox Christianity
Guys, please, what's the most patrician introduction/overview of the Orthodox Church out there? I need something dank, erudite, something for the big boys. I've got the background.
Please help me out.
Loving the thread so far too btw.
Benjamin Gray
Man can you tell us your journey that sounds incredible
What kind of things did you read and experience that led you back to Christ and no other faith?
Levi Parker
Is it true that Catholics believe that the Catholic/Orthodox schism is merely a political disagreement over who runs the church? Whereas the Orthodox believe it's both political and theological, and the Catholics are heretics?
Or to put it another way; the Latins believe only cosmetic differences divide them, whereas the Greeks believe the differences are huge?
Jayden Cook
Orthodoxy is so patrician and trending right now.
Bentley Adams
Clearly it's time to think of the next flavor for the next 'month/year/decade'.
Grayson Brown
In contrast, Protestantim is so pleb tier. Hurr durr philosophy is not in the bible, icons are not in the bible, God-like architecture in not in the bible. Jesus already did everything, we're not supposed to do anything; let's just stand here and do nothing. No better yet let's sing a shitty "hymn" that sounds like pop or country music.
Thomas Phillips
Buttmad catholicuck or protescunt detected.
Colton Bailey
Glory be unto lord Putin, the savior of the white race. May his hand smite the semite adversary (adversary = satan).
Cesaropapism when?
Cameron Phillips
You don't think these things come and go?
Aaron Flores
I'm pulling for Buddhism to make a comeback
Jason Thompson
Zen made me realize there's a whole dimension of being outside of the mind and its inherently limiting conceptualizations, esoteric traditions and particularly Buddhism taught me the deep principles of being and reality (the arbitrariness of biology, the eternal insufficiency of desire, the mechanics of ignorance, the logical errors of a reductive thinking, etc.), philosophers like Schelling, Plato, Evola, and Plotinus convinced me of the beauty, power, and grace of the divine, pessimists like Schopenhauer and Cioran taught me that even if the universe is filled with horror in suffering there is still something in it to love - or else we wouldn't bemoan our state of affairs - or in other words, even in a universe so dark, there is still something in it called love and beauty, and finally it was Lev Shestov who convinced me the God of the Bible is incompatible with le reason and le rationality precisely because he is that which transcends how we habitually perceive and categorize the world.
I thought the Bible was just a stepping-stone to higher realizations. I never thought in a million years I'd be making a full circle back to it with a whole new perspective I would have never even dreamed of years ago
Ethan Garcia
No. According to orthos, their doctrine never changes and their hymns are the same ones the angels sing. Meanwhile caths do tango and clown masses and don't get me started on proddies...
Carter Rodriguez
So, aesthetics? Is that your objection to Catholicism and Protestantism? You just don't like how they look?
Ryder Parker
but I'm not talking about doctrine.
I'm talking about popularity. Everything old becomes new again if you let enough time pass by.
Jackson Bennett
>their doctrine never changes And here's the thing. The whole aesthetic thing, it's not just to attract customers. There's a whole philosophy behind it. Whereas proddiecunts and cucktocucks literally change everything to suit the customer.
Juan Martin
Church popularity may wax and wane. But it shows character that you are able to remain the same throughout, and lack thereof, if you try hard to please everyone, like in proddiecuntism cucktolicuckism.
Alexander Cruz
So any patrician Orthodox books/study bibles?
Camden Collins
Certainly Catholics will acknowledge that there are doctrinal differences, but they think those are things that should have been worked out, and the main reasons for the split were political.
The Catholic church would like very much to be in talks with the Orthodox about formally ending the schism in some form or another, Some orthodox seem interested but not enough of them to move forward
Easton Perry
Won't work until the core pillar of Roman Catholicism, Papal Primacy, is eliminated.
Charles Sullivan
Yeah Orthodox are fucking serious when it comes to faith whereas romische cuckolds only see it as a tool to advance their political goals.
Camden James
Then who should run the church, what person or body of people?
And where else should it be located; the capital of Israel, or the capital of Turkey?
Jaxson Evans
Not sure if troll but for the sake of people that are reading papal supremacy means universal jurisdiction, infallibility and authority over matters of faith morals. The church can run itself (and has been able to) at various levels without any of that garbage.
Xavier Phillips
Prior to the schism, the pope was primus inter pares among the four other patriarchs then extant (Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, and Alexandria). He was not considered infallible. His primacy was not the primacy of a monarch but the primacy of a servant leader. St. Pope Gregory the Great himself laid this out, painting clergy as servi servorum dei (servants of the servants of God). Look at Gregory's harsh statements against the Constantinopolitan bishop upon his declaration of personal 'ecumenicsm', he doesn't refute him by calling the see of peter infallible, he refutes him by diminishing clerical styling.
To sum it up, church authority would be concentrated in something like the original pentarchy (including the Pope of Rome/the West).
Jaxson Lewis
That is how the east saw it, the papacy, or at least some popes like Leo I were making big claims from early on, which were generally only approved of by the papacy's allies.
Catholic of course claim there is scripture and Church fathers to back these claims up, which the Orthodox dispute.
The Orthodox seem to think that the Catholics are wrong and they know it, and they are just to stubbern to admit it. But the Catholics, are pretty serious about the legitimacy of their papal claims
>The Orthodox seem to think that the Catholics are wrong and they know it, and they are just to stubbern to admit it. They are, they let their ego control them. Also, the Greek goes against their Peter claim.
Levi Adams
I might even be sympathetic to your arguments if you were not so blindly partisan.
Jaxson Gray
If you decentralize authority to the point of effectively banishing it, you are on your way to the >Holy >Roman >Empire or the 30000 protestant churches.
Also, the seat of St. Peter, you are Peter and upon this rock (not upon 5 or 30000 rocks, depending on your own particular interpretation of scriptures, my dear user) I build my Church.
So yeah, the concept of unity under the Papacy is absolutely core and unnegotiable.
