Did Noah's Ark actually happen or is it a metaphor?

I kinda feel this is bullshit, Augustine was a pretty sharp guy. If he said it was real, he probably only meant in a symbolic manner

Same flood, different storyteller.

So you're smarter than he was, and you know what he really meant, not what he just said.

Truly an honor to post with you.

Neither. It's just incorrect.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, yes.

You know Noah appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh, yes?

No, he thought it was a real, physical thing. He argued that since it was measured in Egyptian cubits rather than Latin, it was bigger than people thought, and could in fact hold all the animals on Earth.

>There are people on Veeky Forums right now who believe that a bronze-age agrarian built a boat that could house the approximately 8.7 million extant species on Earth

A feat we can't do today with modern technology, kek.

>There are people browsing Veeky Forums right now who not only believe this story, but believe it explains the extinctions of various prehistoric flora and fauna, even the ones that were fucking aquatic and could easily survive underwater for 40 days

>You know Noah appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh, yes?
Kek, no. Holy shit.

As does a feasibility study written on the matter, and still for sale on Amazon.com

See, that's where you're wrong. You only need about 20,000 different kinds of animals to produce what we see today.

You autists get so caught up in "species" that you forget your own evolutionary religion.

They call him Utnapishtim.

You're a fucking idiot.

Except that most people who believe in the Great Flood story also deny evolution.

I wonder what you're like irl

After one fight, this nemesis—Enkidu—became best friends with Gilgamesh. The two set off to win fame by going on many dangerous adventures in which Enkidu is eventually killed. Gilgamesh then determines to find immortality since he now fears death. It is upon this search that he meets Utnapishtim, the character most like the Biblical Noah.

In brief, Utnapishtim had become immortal after building a ship to weather the Great Deluge that destroyed mankind. He brought all of his relatives and all species of creatures aboard the vessel. Utnapishtim released birds to find land, and the ship landed upon a mountain after the flood. The story then ends with tales of Enkidu's visit to the underworld.

Yes, people who love the truth hate lies.

And people who love lies forget to wind them back 4600 years so as to account for the parents of all that we see today, not the variety of all that we see today.

you are an actual moron, what are you even trying to do?

subhuman eternalis, enjoy slave morality

Demonstrate that Noah and Utnapishtim are one and the same person, the central figure surviving a very real global flood as told by two very different peoples, the Hebrews and the Babylonians.

That explicitly means noah is not in gilgamesh's flood though you twat. It means Utnapishtim is in the bible.

Kill yourself you fucking moron.

You implied Noah came first.

No, what he's claiming is that there is an arbitrary distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution", with " micro" being within a "kind", which is extremely vaguely and arbitrarily defined. What is really crazy is that somehow all these 20,000 kinds somehow rapidly evolved into the millions of species we have today within a few thousand years, ironically more rapid than the " macro-evolution" they reject

>muh metaphor
METAPHOR FOR WHAT YOU DUMB NIGGER?! You can't just excuse every dumb shit the bible says and is later on proven false with muh metaphor! Words have meaning! What is it a metaphor about?

So where is all the physical, geological evidence of all life being wiped out and the Earth being repopulated only ~5000 years ago? It would be fucking everywhere.

Holy shit, using this thread as a metric, this board is made of retards. Of course there are multiple flood stories, it was a region that flooded a lot, and Babylonian and Jewish culture overlapped at some point.

It doesn't prove anything but that there were two stories written. Find the fossil and sediment records of a global extinction just a few thousand years ago.

I'll wait.

/thread

youtube.com/watch?v=bL2fNnllrAw

>So where is all the physical, geological evidence of all life being wiped out and the Earth being repopulated only ~5000 years ago? It would be fucking everywhere.

There are actually theories which suggest this.

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1297765/Last-humans-Earth-survived-Ice-Age-sheltering-Garden-Eden-claim-scientists.html

Although not a flood theory - many scientists do believe that at one stage in human history we were cut down to a few hundred people living in one area. Of course not every scientist believes this and there is little proof past our lack of genetic diversity to suggest this.

But's it's not a far out idea.

Not the guy you're arguing with, but I think his point was that the writers of the old testament appropriated the story from the Babylonians, not that Noah was a real person.

It happened, but not to the scale Ken Ham thinks.

There truly was a "global" flood but not a global flood. The known world was the entire world thus if it was flooded, the whole planet was.

Is English your first language?

Noah = Utnapishtim

Breeding happens rapidly. So does adaptation. So does natural selection.

That still implies Noah is the original. You moron. It implies Noah is original.

Kek. Back to school with you.

It's literally all over the earth.

The geological column is not accreted layers of the earth from the top to the bottom.

It's mudslides hardened into rocks; sedimentary rock; sediment from the Flood.

It's in every river delta on earth; no more than 4700 years of accumulated silt.

It's in the entire fossil record; small things at the bottom of the ocean killed, but preserved, and found on the tops of mountains.

It's in any population calculator you want to use, putting in 3 breeding pairs 4600 years ago at known growth rates (you get about 7 billion people).

It's everywhere.

Open your eyes.

Ah, I quoted the wrong post.

Was for Well, and for anyone who actually thinks this happened.

Do you understand that water seeks its own level?

Do you understand that the water was higher than the highest mountain peaks at the time, about 6000 ft?

Do you understand the water stood for over a year?

You people never cease to amaze me. So ignorant, so arrogant, so cocksure you know everything.

Oh fuck, I think I quoted the wrong post too which makes this whole thing even more confusing. My bad.

I stated it directly. Noah is the original.

In the language of another people, they did not call Noah "Noah". They called Noah "Utnapishtim".

You're really fucking stupid for someone calling other people stupid.

I found a plank of wood on a mountain. Does that count?

Also I found a wheel that might have belonged to a chariot in the Red Sea.

xD, you're a fucking moron.
>can date bible stories
>cannot date Gilgamesh tablets
>although known to be a lot older than the earliest biblical texts
>therefore Noah = the character in Gilgamesh
Seriously, just stop posting.

I think what he meant was that Noah cannot be the original but Utnapishtim because the latters storyteller is older.

Oldest Gilgamesh tablet is older than Moses.

So what?

Flood's older than Moses too.

Utnapishtim's story is much older if we assume that both stories are based on one true event then Utnapishtim's story is closer to the truth, with a whole Pantheon of gods

Flood happened 4600 years ago.

4000 years ago, the Babylonians wrote it down.

3500 years ago, the Hebrews wrote it down.

It's the same flood.

Utnaptishtim's story is not older than the flood.

Noah's story is not older than the flood.

This "whoever wrote it down first must be talking about an older event" is nonsense.

I'm new to Veeky Forumstory.
Can someone help me know what is shitposting and what is serious in this thread?

I lost track of what is what right after posted.

You know they found seashells and clams at the top of Mt. Everest?

I mean it's a readily accepted scientific fact that the sea levels were much, much higher than they are.

And add to that "whoever wrote it down first must be closer to the truth".

God told Moses what happened.

God knows exactly what happened.

If you want to believe the Babylonians, you are free to do so, of course, but this idea that older is more true is absurd. Gilgamesh still doesn't go all the way back to the event.

I'm saying the proliferation of flood myths grants credence but the actual disaster would've been drastically smaller than most modern interpretations. Or to put it simply:
>something happened, the end

I take it you suck Ken Ham's dick?

The more logical conclusion is that the mountains are much younger than the geologists figure, and that the world is changed catastrophically far more than it is changed incrementally.

Well there was definitely flooding in the Levant and Mesopotamia in general. My guess is that some people survived on boats and then that legend was transmitted around the area and the Jews colored it for their purposes.
So mostly yes

Are you a faggot? You suck whoever's dick you believe is telling the truth?

>kek, moron
>kill yourself
>fucking moron
>back to school
>you fucking idiot
Stop responding to this troll.

So your guess based on your opinion dictated by your mood is what we should go on.

Both, in that it happened in a quasi-mythical sense, but should be taken metaphorically. We have our Greco-roman predecessors for this convenient method of belief.

You do know about how the Himilayas work right?

>It's in every river delta on earth; no more than 4700 years of accumulated silt.
(citation needed)
>It's in the entire fossil record; small things at the bottom of the ocean killed, but preserved, and found on the tops of mountains.
Sure, but they are much older than 4600 years.

>It's in any population calculator you want to use, putting in 3 breeding pairs 4600 years ago at known growth rates (you get about 7 billion people).
(CITATION NEEDED)

Even if you do get 7 billion, it doesn't account for the genetic diversity of JUST HUMANS today. It sure doesn't account for the diversity of the entire biosphere of Earth.

How, in 4600 years, did even 20,000 "kinds" spread from the desert to all over the Earth?

Do you know how long it takes species to spread across continents?
How did everything get from the Middle East to the America's? The North Pole?

Did Noah make the rounds, dropping a handful of "kinds" all around the globe?

Did he plant corn in South America, and just forget to bring it back to the Old World?

It takes much, much, MUCH longer than 4600 years for animals to spread like that.

All of The Old Testament is bullshit.

Next question.

One story being older makes it more likely to be more accurate than the other. There is no other information to go off of to show whether one used more accurate sources, if they even used sources

I'm not a liberal. You don't combat free speech with censure. You combat free speech with more free speech.

He showed his ass; people can judge him for themselves. And if they hold his opinions, they can do some second guessing of their own.

What's the current academic consensus?
If they say it happened, it happened.
If they say it didn't, t'was but a metaphor.

Holy shit, you're delusional. You can date the Christian flood, that's the point you fucking moron.

You cannot date Gilgamesh's flood, the writings are older than the Christian fucking timeline. Kill yourself, Christian scum.

>As you can see from Table 1, the year in which the Flood came was 1656 AM1 (Anno Mundi – “year of the world”). From the rest of the Old Testament and other well-documented historical events we understand that creation, as calculated by Ussher, was about 4004 BC. So with a little more math we can calculate the second date.

Moses didn't write Genesis. Hebrew wasn't even a language when Moses supposedly lived.

There is no "age" quality; people have tested things radiometrically and you believe them. I don't. I go with helium diffusion.

Go to a population calculator. Google one. Put in 6 people at any known population growth rate you'd like.

For confirmation, if you think humans have been on the planet for 100,000 years, put in 2 to begin with, and see the calculator spin up to an infinite number of people now.

>Even if you do get 7 billion, it doesn't account for the genetic diversity of JUST HUMANS today. It sure doesn't account for the diversity of the entire biosphere of Earth.
>How, in 4600 years, did even 20,000 "kinds" spread from the desert to all over the Earth?
>Do you know how long it takes species to spread across continents?
>How did everything get from the Middle East to the America's? The North Pole?
>Did Noah make the rounds, dropping a handful of "kinds" all around the globe?
>Did he plant corn in South America, and just forget to bring it back to the Old World?
>It takes much, much, MUCH longer than 4600 years for animals to spread like that.

Robust DNA, Pangea, ocean currents, floating biomats.

Tell that to 1,300,000,000 muslims who think their leader 600 years after the fact knows more than the eyewitnesses about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

I already said the earliest Babylonian writings for Gilgamesh precede Moses at 3500 years ago; however, they are obviously between the Flood 4600 years ago and Moses.

First does not mean more right; first does not mean more accurate; first when it contradicts God's Word is flat out wrong.

Besides, the oral tradition of the good people on earth, as contrasted to the Babylonians, is far more reliable than the demon worshipers'.

He did, and it was.

>breeding
Breeding works fast because you artificially select individuals with exceptional traits from a large gene pool and then their descendants reproduce only together so they form one purebred lineage very distinct from the others.
So yes, by taking only one pair, Noah would have been (in)breeding new breeds and species. Except only one breed, not thousands. If anything, genetic diversity was destroyed by the Flood. The point of breeding is not to turn a pair of poodles into wolves and coyotes and foxes, it's to mate the smallest fluffiest wolves you can find until you get a pair of poodles, then those stay poodles.

>adaption, natural selection
Doesn't work that fast, especially for larger animals with long generations.

Confirmed for delusional christian, you are done. You are simply making excuses.

Thanks for proving that's all you are doing.

>Radiometrics don't give me the answer I want, it's bullshit, ignore it and look for the answer I want
Ken Ham, please go. Don't you have a failing park to look after?

>Pangea
>4600 years ago

That's it, I'm with . I can't tell who is shit posting anymore. This is actually hurting me where my soul should be.

Everest is not the only example. I find seashells on the mountains near where I live all the time. And I live near the Ocean.

You know Everest is a singular example, right? If you live near a mountain range, go explore it, I can almost guarantee you will find a shell if you look hard enough.

>And I live near the Ocean.
Before you get all flustered about this point.

Kill yourself retard

/thread

Yeah man, it totally happened. He totally put 2 of each land-based species into a gigantic ship.

100% true. How can you not see science.

Did you fail geology class in addition to biology class?

Do you even understand what I am saying?

Do you even understand what you are saying? Because it's fucking nonsense. Your logic is so faulty as to be almost mind boggling.

Do you even understand how mountains are formed?

It's nonsense that there is scientific evidence of sea levels being much higher than they are now?

If by "much higher" you mean "6000 feet above the current sea level" then yes, it's absurd and laughable.

...

Well where did I say that?

and?
You know the himalayas were raised when the indian subcontinent crashed into the eurasian landmass with no survivors?

god created them, and all geologists go to hell.

>You know the himalayas were raised when the indian subcontinent crashed into the eurasian landmass with no survivors?
Are you capable of reading a thread?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

Gilgamesh is pretty much the first hero figure in recorded history.

Ice Age Ends
Ice Melts and Sea Levels Rise
Black Sea Basin Floods
Dude and his family grab his boat, some goats and some chickens.
They arrive some time later on new shores of the Black Sea.
People on shore go "WOW!"
Story is passed around the fire for millennia.
Story gets written down

Pretty simple really

>Contradicts God's word
>Good people
>Demon Worshippers

Holy shit. Just, wow.

What the fuck are you talking about, no one said this. Are you actually being ignorant on purpose?

That guy is right
A lot of gen is earlier myth that was reshape do fit the Hebrews idea of God
This is the scholarly view

Moses never existed either. Creationist.

incognito