Who does Veeky Forums side with?

Why not the hyper-homosexual Thebe?

that makes me like Athens even more lol

Anti-Basedmericans pls go

Persia.

Nah, nah, for real though Athens.

Athenian hegemony of Greece was actually a good thing.

Only if you were Athenian.

Sparta was on the right side of everything regarding Athens since the 1st Persian Invasion until it's fall.

Athens a shit.

Sparta allied with Persia against Athens after being beaten. Talk about cucks.

Sparta won the Peloponnesian war

Athens came close to a victory, they rekt Sparta during the Archidamian War.

After Athens fucked up during the Sicilian Expedition - Sparta renewed hostilities.

Athens held out for 7 years after Sparta and Persia formed an alliance, eventually losing the Peloponnesian War.

Sparta had 3 versions of a treaty with Persia, which included as a provisio that Sparta would give up it's claims for freedoms for the Greek towns in Asia. Sounds pretty cuckish to me.

If I am not mistaken most if not all of those town in Asia Minor were sided with Athens.
Thus they are not getting cucked, they are cucking their enemies.
keep in mind nationality is relatively new meme

Sparta could hardly call itself the liberators of Greece then, this was pretty short sighted and ruined their well earned reputation.

Delian League = Warsaw Pact
Peloponnesian League = NATO

Athens were not liberators of any sort, though, so who cares?

Athens specifically subjugated anybody who opposed them, going to far as to sell all women and children into slavery in some cases.

There was no pan-national hellenic identity at the time, and the Peloponnesian War was not about liberating Greeks.

It was about Sparta wishing to remain independent in the face of aggressive and inhumane Athenian expansionism which did as much damage to Greek states as the Persians did - and in many cases even more damage.

I'm most offended by the implication that Nietzsche liked Sparta

Sparta hardly had the moral high ground. They had a huge helot population so that they could spend their time for military training while Athens had relatively few and treated their slaves well.

A description of how Sparta treated helots:
>They assign to the Helots every shameful task leading to disgrace. For they ordained that each one of them must wear a dogskin cap (kυνῆ / kunễ) and wrap himself in skins (διφθέρα / diphthéra) and receive a stipulated number of beatings every year regardless of any wrongdoing, so that they would never forget they were slaves. Moreover, if any exceeded the vigour proper to a slave's condition, they made death the penalty; and they allotted a punishment to those controlling them if they failed.

Thucydides wrote about the graduates of the Agoge:
>"The helots were invited by a proclamation to pick out those of their number who claimed to have most distinguished themselves against the enemy, in order that they might receive their freedom; the object being to test them, as it was thought that the first to claim their freedom would be the most high spirited and the most apt to rebel. As many as two thousand were selected accordingly, who crowned themselves and went round the temples, rejoicing in their new freedom. The Spartans, however, soon afterwards did away with them, and no one ever knew how each of them perished."

Face it, Spara just couldn't stand the fact that Athens was a rising power who's power with their Delian league could match their own Peloponnesian league.

I have, and I've also read Xenophon's Hellenica.

The Spartas, though they treated the Helots like shit, never did anything in the war like what Athens did to Melos. Sparta just wanted to maintain the status quo.

Both Sparta and Athens has no "moral" reason for war, and neither were particularly "good guys"
states were just doing what was in their interest

sparta wasn't nice to its slaves

athens wasn't nice to those who wanted to leave the "league"

Sparta was conservative (by that I mean trying to maintain the status quot). Athens was populist. Athens intentionally fomented populist insurrections, because they knew that the newly established democracies would apply with Athens out of the need for survival, since all the aristocratic states would gang up on them otherwise and restore the ruling class.

>Sparta just wanted to maintain the status quo.

Until they could have an opportunity to push forward Spartan hegemony

Sparta was only isolationist because they feared that if they left Sparta for too long to wage wars then the helots would rebel and kill their wives and children.

If they treated the helots better, you can be sure they would be just as imperialistic as Athens.

I've got bad news for you, user.

he has to support sparta?

Sparta wasn't interested in the kind of hegemony Athens was (you can read Machiavelli's analysis in Discourses for more on this). The reason for this is because Sparta, unlike Athens, did not have, nor want a system, that allowed for mass-mobilization of soldiers. The military was to them, above all, a class, and consequently it had to be kept very small. Sparta did not want a military massive enough to occupy a lot of other states, because that would require enfranchising a lot more people. They eventually had to recruit Helots for service though (and they got freedom in exchange for it), to cope with Athens's numbers, but that was not a system they were enthusiastic about and not something they wanted as a paradigm.

There were cyclical pogroms done in the Helots, but otherwise they actually encouraged the Helots to be dissolute and get drunk, because they thought it made them weaker, and they showed their sons why the Helots were slaves: to give an example of them being lessor in nature, and thus deserving it.

THis guy gets it.

Maybe the league of Corinth to

What has moral highground have to do anything, you anachronistic twat?

The war between Athens and Sparta had nothing to do with Greek nationalism (ie: the Asia Minor cities), and it didn't have to do with moral superiority.

It had to do with Athens being an aggressive and expansionist thalassocracy that had spent the 2-3 decades prior to the war antagonizing Sparta and isolating it by allying with Sparta's foes and by conquering everything it could.

You can't give Athens any credit as liberators or defenders of Greece by saying 'well Sparta teamed up with Persia' because Athens itself was destroying entire cities, enslaving their populations, and turning the husk into cleruchys.

At the end, it came down to Athens lust for an unopposed Empire vs. Sparta's unwavering desire to exist independently and without fear of being isolated.

That's the funny thing, it's very hard to be considered a Spartan with full citizenship, but very easy to be dishonored and lose your full citizenship. They did not think this system through did they....

This is why they had to increasingly rely on Perioikoi's.

>Be Athens
>Win both Persian wars because Sparta is too butthurt to help
>Realize that Hellas' only hope for continued independence is to unify the city states
>Be Sparta
>Get butthurt that someone else made a club where you couldn't bully the other city states to follow you into pointless wars
>Trick smaller city states to rebel against Athens
>Get so anally devastated you take Persian money and ships and sell off the freedom of other Greeks
>Destabilize the region and fall into obscurity while the rest of the city states are steam rolled by the Macedonians

>be athens
>all of greece abandons you to face persia
>sparta stands by you

Based Thebes, thank you for ridding the world of the cancer known as Sparta

They had to because of massive causalities. Spartan citizens were literally 2/3rds depleted over the course of the war.

It was Athens who won the battle of marathon, where was Sparta? That's right ... waiting for a full moon for the festival of Carneia - what a lame fucking excuse.

When the Athenians rekt Persia, the Spartans became anally buttdevestated and realized Athens was fast becoming a force to be reckoned with ... sowing the seeds for the peloponnesian wars.

They were literally the good guys in that war.
Athens decided to go full imperialism, and the Spartans decided to stab them to death.

Sparta was actually quite generous to Athens when they defeated them, they just took down the wall.

Athens, of course, started the war up again as soon as they had the chance.

Athens also had slaves, user, and treated them like absolute shit.

They also enslaved entire cities in all but name.

>Win both Persian wars because Sparta is too butt hurt to help
I feel like you don't actually know who was and wasn't present at platea.

I'm aware. Sparta was incredibly fair handed when dealing with any entity aside from the helots.

>Thirty Tyrants
>Generous

Reminder that Thebes is the choice of a true patrician.

Taking down the walls of cities who rebelled against their league is hardly wrong. They knew what they were in for when they signed on the dotted lines.

When the "greatest" fighting force in Greece is assraped by a gang of 300 homos...

Technically, Macedon did beat the shit out of everyone.

Spartans were short and scrawny due to their starvation diet as children while Thebans were known for their large stature and clean limbs.

Yeah, no. Typically you could leave leagues.

>Be Sparta
>Let Attica and Boetia fall to Persia
>Athenians pull off another fucking Marathon at Salamis
>Finally only get involved after Xerxes leaves with the majority of his forces and you bitch and whined to get command of the Greek forces even though you didn't do jack shit

Nigga please.

>they're all wearing cavalry helmets
>thigh armor
>the spartan has no armor

I'm just going to assume this is ospreys shitty work.

Min explaining exactly what battlefield north of athens would have allowed a greek force to defeat that entire army and not just get enveloped and destroyed?

You can't, because there wasn't one. Especially not with the persian fucking fleet intact and able to circumvent any bottleneck to land troops.

>hurrr i'm a big cuckold hurrrr

literally what you sound like

BIG THEBAN COCK

Athens, obvious choice

>Be Athens
>Decide to hold off Persians at Artemisium with your navy because you are the only city state with any foresight to make a large one
>Peloponnesians were supposed to hold off Thermopylae
>Be Sparta
>Decide not to send the entire League to the pass because you only care about your club house past the Corinthian straight
>Only send fucking 300 of your own men with a King with a martyr complex while conscripting a handful of men
>get you forces surrounded because they are so small that a fucking goat path lets you get out flanked
>Get slaughtered and take all the credit for yourself
>Athens looses too because you only gave them fucking canoes for ships

If you're going to troll, you need to make the post consistent, user.

>promoting independence by destroying independence

When all of Greece ran south to Corinth and the Peloponnese to escape the onslaught of the Persian Army, it was the Spartans who marched to the Hellespont to hold back the advance.

Athens failed to remember that gesture, or did not care, with the exception of Cimon. The last Athenian worth a damn.

It is the other way around,delian league was the nato.USA was athens who controlled the seas.
Pellop league(warsaw pact)and sparta aka soviet union was the land power.

This was the perspective during the cold war,examined by the americans so as to avoid doing the mistakes athens did.Many analogies are actually scary,like vietnam/sicily expedition.

But that is basically the entire point of Thucydides. He's vehemently anti-Athenian the whole way through. Did you even read it user? The Melian dialogue, Sicilian Expedition is all about Athens being nakedly imperialistic and falling apart as a result.

Whichever city-state I was a citizen of

>Dude, what if, like, instead of, like, 8 ranks, we have... 16 ranks
>Dude, that's wicked but... we could have like 50 ranks
>Shit that's cool *gargles cock*

Spartans undeniably had the best banter.

>King Demaratus, being annoyed by someone pestering him with a question concerning who the most exemplary Spartan was, answered "He that is least like you."

>After invading southern Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again." The Spartan ephors replied with a single word: "If" (αἴkα).[28] Subsequently, neither Philip nor his son Alexander the Great attempted to capture the city.

>When an Athenian accused Spartans of being ignorant, the Spartan Pleistoanax agreed: "What you say is true. We alone of all the Greeks have learned none of your evil ways."

...

I, too, meme to Dan Carlin

That's called oblique order and was utilised by a lot of successful generals, Frederick the Great made great use of it specifically.

Reminder that Sparta couldn't even defeat the Aetolian league or Macedon after Alexander.

>After invading southern Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again." The Spartan ephors replied with a single word: "If" (αἴkα).[28] Subsequently, neither Philip nor his son Alexander the Great attempted to capture the city.

Mostly because it was irrelevant. Sparta would be forced into League of Corinth easily but Phillip was readying for a campaign against Persia and Alexander went for a campaign against Persia then went full Persiaboo.

More like they understood they had a very weak grasp on Greece. Sparta was a risky opponent - they had the most prestigious history in Greece and were still feared by a lot of the other cities.

A defeat, even minor, at the hands of Sparta, would have thrown all of Greece into revolt against Macedon.

It was much easier and much safer to bypass them entirely.

Sparta was a fucking joke. They were never important again after Thebes destroyed them. Sparta tried to fight Macedon but were destroyed every time.

Thebes freed the helots and gave them a city, Megalopolis, right next to Sparta so that they would keep Sparta in check.

Based sacred band of cum guzzlers.

Citation?

Any documentaries on the subject to recommend?

Sparta, all day every day.

>When someone from Argos pointed out that Spartans were susceptible to being corrupted by foreign travel, Eudamidas replied, "But you, when you come to Sparta, do not become worse, but better."[30]

Yes, read Thucydides you lazy fuck.

>Philip of Macedon
>Siding with a barbarian

Do you guys know about any examples of controlled oposition throughout history?

Link it or fuck off retard

>needs a link to one of the oldest and most widely translated and read texts in all of human history

why live?

And who posts on Veeky Forums without owning a copy?

Height is set from the mothers diet and health (during pregnancy and breast feeding) and the childs early diet

>the most advance city-state
or
>wall are for pussy bro

But Americans eat shit food with no nutrition.

Sparta

I don't like Nazis, and Nietzche wasn't a Nazi.

>Delian League = Warsaw Pact
>""allies"" ruthlessly exploited
>you want to leave, you get invaded
seems correct

was greek fire just oil?

>A defeat, even minor, at the hands of Sparta, would have thrown all of Greece into revolt against Macedon.

Dude, Macedon defeated Sparta in 331 BC despite initial setbacks.

Did The Republic give anyone else the impression that Plato was a huge Spartaboo?

what?

He literally did side with the Achean League against the Aetolian League

Sparta was 100% justified

"Laconic Speech" has been known to be a thing since Sparta you moron.

>Spartan
>Cavalry

>he wasn't raised on "if" and "molon labe"

t. fag

duh

the ones who didnt fuck little boys

Pretty much all the intellectual/alternative Athenians were Spartaboo, either because they wanted to be edgy or because they'd been tired of democracy giving a voice to all the idiots around them with disastrous results.

That's none of them