Opinions on Messianic Judaism?

except... he fullfilled ALL of them.

You'll understand in Galatians

muslim preserving texts of ancient greek philosophers is a meme

>t. my university professor specializing in the philosophy of Aristoteles and Neo-platonism

I don't see world peace, a restoration of zion, the ingathering of the lost tribes. Do you?

They were fulfilled :^)

Tbh It's a cop out, Paul did away with the law in order to win more converts

Jesus fulfilled the "laws" of the old testament, hence no more animal sacrifice, and referring to "not eating certain animals"- this has also been done away with: 1Tim 4:4-5 : 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Read the New Testament

Israel, a nation that had not really existed as a separate nation for nearly 2,500 years, was declared a new sovereign state by an act of the United Nations on May 14, 1948. The nation was born in a day.

Isaiah 66:8 NIV - "Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children."

He liberated Israel from gentile occupation and raised the Jewish homeland to status of a world superpower?
>w-well no, but he fulfilled the lesser requirement of restoring the temple, though he didn't literally restore the temple in Jerusalem. Also he got a lot of the world to start worshiping the God of Israel, so that's almost another fulfillment

The first returning Jews to Palestine came primarily from eastern Arab countries. The next major movement came from the western countries of Europe, especially Germany. Then they came in great numbers from Russia (north) during the end of the 1980's. The last great migrations of Jews returning to Israel came from Ethiopia in the south. This precise order of return was predicted by Isaiah the prophet.

Isaiah 43:5-6,21 - "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth..."

"... the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise."

Psalm 107:2-3 NIV - "Let the redeemed of the LORD say this -- those he redeemed from the hand of the foe, those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south.

Israel was most certainly not "born in a day", it was the product of decades of struggle for independence against both the T*rks and Brits, and has been fighting for survival ever since. even today as millions argue that it was never a legitimate birth

Sign #6: A pure language

With the return of the nation, the ancient Hebrew language has been revived and become the official language of the state. Prior to this happening, the Jews spoke an impure form of the language called Yiddish. The return to a pure common language was again predicted by the prophets.

Zephaniah 3:8-10 KJV - "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering".

Please don't fool yourself into denying Christ, He is the Lord our God and the only way to see the Father is through Him and His sacrifice. You are awaiting a savior that has already come

Why would jesus, 2000 years after he died, decide to roughly fulfill a messianic prophecy for a people he no longer favors and whose priestly caste consists of vipers? I honestly don't get the logic here.

After you had Jewish immigration going on for literal decades, and an underground state/mafia forming that was running quite a bit of the Jewish areas of British Palestine.

You may as well say America "Formed in a day", and so did every other country on the planet.

Which pretty neatly poleaxes your Isaiah quote.

Which happened close to 2,000 years after Jesus died and had absolutely nothing to do with him.

Hebrew had existed for ages, I don't know what you're on about. It was the scholarly language, not the day to day language, to be sure, but all theologically educated people could read, write, and speak Hebrew. Torah readings were always done in Hebrew. Books like the Shulchan Aruch were written in Hebrew, and lots of people bought it and were capable of understanding it.

Yiddish was only a creole set of languages spoken in Central to Eastern Europe, which SURPRISE, was not the sum of Jewish exile community.

Psst. Jesus wasn't responsible for any of this, nor have the "lost" tribes been rediscovered, which is what the ingathering means. The Temple hasn't been rebuilt either, so you haven't actually scored a single point in your "argument".

Jews deny HIM he doesnt deny them

Jesus is long dead and can't hear your prayers, sorry friend.

>Opinions on Messianic Judaism?

I have an uncle who leads a congragation of Messianic jews in Israel. he and his congegation were some of the kindist and most polite people i met in Israel. ultra orthos are the worst people you will ever meet.

>Is it the true version of Christianity, where one abides fully to the Old and the New Testaments?

Most Messianac jews are considered their own division of protestants. My uncle's congragation follow most of both testaments though, but i'm not sure about other Messianic jews.

>jews in denial?
More like jews that wish to recognize the changes brought about by Christ. A lot of jewish sects follow, to some degree, a living faith. infact there are records in the rabbinical records of the trial of Christ, so it's not like most jews don't beleve Jesus existed, mainstream jews just don't believe he was the Messiah.

Bible seems to say otherwise chum
especially with regards to Longinus

>h. infact there are records in the rabbinical records of the trial of Christ, so it's not like most jews don't beleve Jesus existed, mainstream jews just don't believe he was the Messiah.

Sauce? As far as I know, the only record of Jesus's trial is in the New Testament, and it's so divergent with other sources of how the Sanhedrin operated that it's almost universally regarded (among Jews anyway) as fiction.

messianic judaism is just a ploy by the christians to subvertly convert Jews into christianity.

No he didn't, Christ fulfilled the law. Also why would Paul who initially was a persecutor of Christians travel thousands of miles to inevitably die preaching a religion that he knew to be false... I suggest you re-read the epistles of Paul, the Gospel and Acts.

You are in denial. The Temple will be rebuild just wait and it will be desecrated once more.

not so much fun when youre on the receiving end eh? hehehe...

Paul was probably never a member of the Jewish gestapo or whatever that bullshit story was. Fucker didn't even know basic theological differences between the two main Jewish sects of the time.

Christianity started off as a little messianic Jewish cult based around a charismatic leader who died before fulfilling any of the prophecies. Paul, the homosexual hellene, retrofitted Christianity into a bizarre syncretic religion by stealing concepts from platonic philosophy and Greek literature. In fact in actual old testament prophecy the coming of the messiah would bring about worldwide adherence to the law, not abolishment. But that was the way paul was going to get converts you don't have to get circumcised or anything just join my church :^^))

Fucking clear as day what happened but to this day Christians can't put the pieces together and are wondering why people who take a look into the history of the books increasingly turn away from the religion.

Also fucking hurrrr why do cult leaders die or do stupid shit for things they know aren't true like heavens gate, Joseph Smith, etc etc

Because on some level these people are deluding themselves by drinking their own koolaid. Faith and belief are funny things.

The apostles created the Church, under Jesus's instruction. The Church started in the first century and was founded by our Lord's word.
The synagogue is not a church.
Jews will be Jews even if they're on the right path

My wife and I feel like outcasts because we abide by new and old testament. We feel like Jews who believe in Jesus but do not believe that Jesus is God ( Trinity) so good luck finding anyone with our beliefs. They don't exist. I was raised southern Baptist but never understood Christmas or Easter. When I grew up I finally realized why. People adopting pagan proscribed l practices just as Jesus and God both day NOT to do. We observe the feats as written in the old testament, eat kosher food only, and observe the Sabbath.

tinfoil

Tinfoil it might be, but I know more than a few Jewish people who really do believe that.

It's obvious why cult leaders do such things like Joseph Smith for example, for self fulfilment. I bet Paul had a really nice time rotting in a tiny water filled prison cell in Rome before he was excecuted, unmarried and childless after being exiled from basically everywhere he went. Sure as hell sounds to me like he was in it for personal gain.... Not. Don't ever compare Paul the Apostle to Joseph Smith again if you want to be taken seriously. Your understanding of Christian theology is evidently poor. If you think that Christ was supposed to bring universal adherence to the law then why does he say what he does on the Sermon on the mount. You come across as someone who thinks they are really clever but you're really missing the point.

I love Jesus
But I wanna be a Jew
Why not do two
And do the Mountain Dew

constie pls

Yeah I bet Joseph Smith was just fine and dandy when him and his group were being hunted like rabbits by angry yokels. He also got shot while trying to escape a riot, what fun!

Fuck off, cult leaders often get themselves into terrible situations that are not to their benefit. The reasons they do so only lie in their fucked up psyche.

Who the fuck even knows what Jesus actually said since our sources have been filtered through Paul. Apparently the other apostles didn't like breaking bread with a bunch of uncircumcised gentiles though. Makes u think

They reject the Church, do not observe the Lord's Day (the Christian Sabbath), and reject that the law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ (thus they insist not merely on the abiding validity of the moral law as a reflection of God's character, but the abiding validity of the ceremonial law of Israel). The circumcision party and other judaizers received Apostolic condemnation. Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religion, but it is not orthodox Christianity.

Step 1: Murder the Messiah
Step 2: Reject His Kingdom
Step 3: Blame the Murdered Messiah for not bringing in the Rejected Kingdom.
Step 4; ???
Step 5: Profit!

Guess what Jews? When the very Jewish Messiah does rule the world, guess where you'll be?

That's right!

Sheol!

Following the Jewish Messiah! Another shoah!

...

>God tells you that if anyone who claims to be the messiah doesn't follow the law or encourages others not to he is not the messiah
>Some asshole claiming to be god shows up and starts prattling on about how the law isn't important

Tbh I'd want him dead too. Assuming I was a 1st century Jewish peasant.

Jesus never said the Law was not important.
Jesus never said He came to do away with the Law.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law.
Jesus fulfilled the Law.

You need to know why the Law was given to man, because right now you're laboring under a delusion.

So fulfilling the law is just identical with getting rid of it? Because that sounds like fucking BULLshit to me my man.

There's a wonderful parable in the bible about a man who owned some land, say some promised land, and he leased it out to some other men in order that they work the land and yield up part of the harvest.

These men took the land, but did not pay their rent. So the rich man sent a messenger, and the wicked men killed him. So the rich man sent another messenger, and this messenger the wicked men beat and chased out of town. Still more messengers were sent, most being killed by the wicked men, until finally the rich man said that he would send his only son, for surely these men would listen to his son.

The wicked men conspired against the son, and reasoned that they should kill him, and thus gain the land for themselves forever. So they murdered the rich man's son.

Now, if you were the rich man, what would you do to those wicked men?

Would you not punish them, take the land back, and give it to others who would pay the rent?

No, there's two ways to fulfill the Law. The first is to perfectly obey the Law, which only Jesus has done.

The second is to pay the penalties associated with breaking the Law, which Jesus has already done for everyone.

You need to know what the Law does. You need to know why God gave Moses the Law.

You know if I were god I would have thrown a clause in the initial prophecy about what "fulfilling" the law means exactly to avoid any unfortunate confusion.

Alright, I'll just tell you.

From the fall of man, Adam and Eve, mankind followed the gospel of satan. Eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, do good, avoid evil, and thus be like God.

And thus be like God.

So God gave mankind His Laws, as a jump off point if you wanted to be like Him. Follow His Law perfectly. All the time. In every regard. At every level. Without fail.

Be perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect.

The Law was not given to man in order for man to follow the Law and be like God; the Law was given to man to drive men into despair of ever being like God on their own merits. It is the Law of Sin and Death. Sin, and Die. And we all sin.

The Law has the other property of stirring up and multiplying sin, so that the more you attempt to follow the Law, the worse off you are.

And finally, Jesus came to show mankind that there was far more to being "like God" than just following all 613 of His commandments perfectly at all times. There were other things like turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, have nothing against you from any man, give the thief your cloak as well as your coat. These are things God does.

If you want God to judge you based on your own righteousness, based on how well you followed His Law, based on your own "goodness", He will do that.

And then He will cast you into a lake of fire for eternal torment.

Yes I'm aware of the Christian interpretation of the law. There just doesn't seem to be much precedent for it in the Old Testament.

Here the Jews were awaiting a messiah, one who would lead the world in adherence to the law, as they had been told. When in actuality God would send his own son, not a man from the line of David as described, who would actually tell them that they were never meant to succeed? That following the law and sacrificing in the temple is pointless?

Yeah if I were a Pharisee I'd call bullshit too and alert the Roman authorities that some rabble rouser is committing blasphemy in the temple.

Are you kidding? There's virtually an entire chapter on all of the curses you can expect from not keeping the entire law perfectly.
Deut 28 iirc.

Ever notice that the Law has nothing to do with knowing the living God?

Ever notice that the Law has nothing to do with the afterlife?

Jesus is a man from the line of David, through both his brotherless mother and his step-father who adopted him.

And Jesus will sit on David's throne forever.

If you read what the New Covenant is supposed to be, in Jeremiah 31, you will see it has nothing to do with Pharisaical Judaism.

It's completely different.

Yeah which is why you sacrifice at the temple to make yourself pure again. It's a constant process, that crafty YHWH.

And I'm not sure what you're getting at with those missing elements. That speaks to me of an evolving religion, one that mutates with the times due to the influences of other religions. Not like it didn't happen before, take Zoroastrianism.

>Opinions on Messianic Judaism?

If we're talking about the organized movement that calls itself "Messianic Judaism" and not just Jesus-loving Jews, it's a really interesting movement. I've known a few and they were really nice. In general, I think their heart is in the right place.

>Is it the true version of Christianity, where one abides fully to the Old and the New Testaments?
Nope. It's more like a misguided offshoot of the extremely conservative Protestant movements that ran rampant across the US in the nineteenth century. It was basically founded by a bunch of Christians who wanted to revert back the Jewish practice and get closer to original Christianity. They problem is, they based their movement on Rabbinic Judaism, which developed after Jesus was around. So it doesn't have much in common with how Jesus and the apostles would have actually practiced their religion. I respect what they were trying to do, but they didn't have the historical knowledge to pull it off.

>Or just jews in denial?
I only consider them superficially Jewish. They're basically just another version of Protestantism.

What the fuck has this got to do with the topic my mentally challenged friend?

Can I ask you when you last sacrificed an animal in the temple or tabernacle to atone for your sins?

Well I'm not an ancient Jew or Hellenic pagan so I've never done that.

The Old Covenant was never about anything but this world. Blessings like more flour in your kneading bowl. No mold or mildew to eat away your crops. Bumper crops. Your enemies defeated. Your animals produce healthy young.

Nothing about what the New Covenant delivers; eternal life with the living God, and a collaborative role in His creation.

If you're honest with yourself, you'll see that the Old Covenant is broken and that God broke His two staves back in 400 BC. He tired of your people's sick offerings and weak prayers, and finally ended your covenant.

You don't have a covenant with God.

All you have is God's promise to preserve a remnant of you so that He can put Abraham's remnant into the promised land forever.

TANRJ

There are no religious Jews.

Well thanks for the preaching but I'm not a Jew. I would agree that the old and new testaments are entirely different in nature, although I'm not sure how that demonstrates the strength of either.

The strength of the old was the Law, which gave sin dominion over man.

The strength of the new is Christ Jesus, Who defeated the grave and death itself.

Not sure why I thought you were a Jew, but there you have it.

By strength I meant likelihood of being true. The Old Testament being very similar to the various tribal religions of its time and period and the New Testament to the syncretic mystery cults, often featuring a savior deity, that were popular in this region of the empire leads me to believe the source was men. With no divine influence in the formation of either.

But I suspect this line of conversation isn't going to be fruitful.

Well, no, the Old Covenant as practiced was true. You'd have a hard time explaining how these Jews terrified the world so much that mighty Egypt fell at their hands, the folks in Jericho were hiding trembling behind their walls, and the giants of Canaan feared the Hebrews.

There was a time then, and there will be a time soon, when the world knows that the living God is in Israel, and that He is the Lord of Hosts, not the Miracle Caterer.

Only Paul outright condemned circumcision and James outright supported it.

I hope you don't think the events in the old testament actually happened as written.

>No, there's two ways to fulfill the Law. The first is to perfectly obey the Law, which only Jesus has done.

This is directly contradicted by the Gospels you stupid proddie. Go look up the Last Supper, and then check your calendar. He missed his paschal offering. Oops.

>I bet Paul had a really nice time rotting in a tiny water filled prison cell in Rome
There are literally hundreds of loonies sitting in an Iranian prison cell because they believe themself or someone they know to be Imam Mahdi. People do retarded shit when they are deluded.

>why does he say what he does on the Sermon on the mount.
You mean why does the bible say what it says. What the bible says and what Jesus said are two different things. There may never have been a sermon on the mount.

>Well, no, the Old Covenant as practiced was true. You'd have a hard time explaining how these Jews terrified the world so much that mighty Egypt fell at their hands, the folks in Jericho were hiding trembling behind their walls, and the giants of Canaan feared the Hebrews.
Well, no. Islam as practiced was true. You'd have a hard time explaining how mighty Persia fell at their hands, the folks in Rome were left hiding trembling behind their walls and the giants of Europe feared the Muslims.

See the problem with that line of reasoning? I mean the Qur'an is almost certainly more historically accurate than the OT, not that either are true.

The bigger problem is that nothing he mentioned ever happened. Although I just now realize he brought up Giants, which leads me to believe it was an elaborate troll all along.

The ancient Jewish Christians were probably adoptionist and used an Aramaic form of the the Gospel of Matthew. Modern Messianic movements are more in line with mainstream pan Christian doctrine but attempt to assimilate some Jewish customs including rabbinical ones into their practice. It would be cool if some groups decided to implement the use of Hebrew for liturgical purposes like the Catholics do/did with Latin and have the psalms and other songs from the Miqra sung in a Sephardi or Yemeni tradition.

>2016
>other people actually caring about what you believe in