Starting Strength General

Starting Strength General.

Post comments, questions, experiences and feedback.

Disclaimer for novices choosing between SL and SS: do NOT do SL - the retarded initial progression on SL will make you waste all of your noob gainz. I had to learn it the hard way and am still regretting it.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=_drttm5r66A
startingstrength.com/articles/clarification_rippetoe.pdf
twitter.com/AnonBabble

>waste your noon gains

Elaborate.

You know you don't have to start with the bar right? 5x5 helps with the upper lifts and rows>power cleans for novices.

SL5x5 requires you to start with the empty bar and add 5lbs/2.5kg each workout. This creates an extremely slow progress that drags for way too long.

SS instead requires you to start adding weight until the bar slows down already at the first workout and for the first 2-3 weeks you should add as much as 10lbs/5kg each workout (or more). This allows you to maximize your novice capacity to progress much faster and more effectively, bringing you to 2-3pl8s in no time.

In SL, by the time you reach 2pl8s you're probably already close to the end of your novice progression.

power cleans > rows because they help you fixing your DL form and drive up posterior chain progress. rows don't do that.
you have no reason not to do power cleans unless you're old, unfixable flexibility issues or have injuries that don't allow you to.

>5x5 helps with the upper lifts
if by "help" you mean "slows the progression" then yes.
>and rows>power cleans for novices.
definitely not. rows are good, but power cleans are way more useful, and there's no better time to learn them than as a novice. This idea that you need to be more advanced to do power cleans is absurd. No matter how much you deadlift, you're garbage at power cleans until you actually start training the power clean, so it's better to start early.

>noob gains run out based on time and not strength level
>implying novices know how to power clean when it takes them months just to squat properly
post totals now dyel

there is only one time to learn proper form of everything: when you're a novice.

it's not that you have to be a master squatter before you can learn the form for power clean. Squat isn't even related.

Also, SS has you learn power clean only at Phase2, because you must understand how to DL properly first.

When you decide on a sport specialization, you may drop the power clean and do other stuff (e.g. rows, cleans, RDLs, etc.) but that won't come until intermediate stage.

novices don't know how to do anything, that's why they're novices. it's harder to learn how to squat correctly than power clean, and the injury potential is way higher too. you have learn all the exercises, and the power clean is no exception, but it's not nearly as difficult as people who've obviously never done it seem to think.

>No matter how much you deadlift, you're garbage at power cleans until you actually start training the power clean
so true!

i could DL 100kg but couldn't even power clean 25kg when I tried it the first time.

>not nearly as difficult as people who've obviously never done it seem to think.

>who've obviously never read starting strength seem to think
*ftfy

No point in learning the olympic lifts and their variations unless you want to be an oly lifter, which 99% of lifters don't. They are highly technical and take a lot of effort to learn properly while not contributing anything special to strength development that other exercises can't. Using momentum is also more likely to injure you.
Squat is a natural movement 1 year olds can do. Momentum lifts are a great path to snap city (watch crossfit memes) and are pointless unless you want to be an oly lifter which 99% of ppl don't.

well, a 100kg deadlift is pretty garbage, but the weight is not the issue here. obviously you can handle heavier weights in the power clean if you can deadlift more, but your technique will be just as shitty.

dude, just stop. a power clean is not "highly technical". you've clearly never even tried it.

>power cleans > rows because they help you fixing your DL
This is not true, stop parroting Rippetoe

>Squat isn't even related.
There are strong relations between front squats and cleans because they hit the same muscles. Part of why Rip includes them is functional shit related to some repressed issues around strength training and vertical jump he doesn't like to go into.

he doesnt include the front squat in the program because power clean don't need you to train the front squat - unlike the clean.

I was maybe not so clear first time around:
Cleans and squats are closely related, moreso the front squat but ofc backsquats and front squats are themselves closely related. Typically 3 rm power clean ~5 rm front squat. A2g back squats are similarly above front squats.

The reasons for Rip including them are not entirely clear, and that's partly because he has unresolved issues with vertical leap training. He does mention vl in relation to p cleans but if you go much deeper you get his vl is a snapshot vagueries.

>Momentum lifts are a great path to snap city (watch crossfit memes) and are pointless unless you want to be an oly lifter

how did this delusion take root? Or is it that people who do other sports on Veeky Forums are such a small minority that they don't see the value in training things like snatch or clean?

>tfw you sub rows for power cleans because your right wrist pops frequently and would do it in every power clean motion

How kind are commercial gyms to people learning/doing power cleans generally? Going to start SS next week after a year of bodyweight and cardio shit.

Most budget gyms wont have the platform/bumpers, thus you cant just drop the weight absentmindedly.

Even if they have them, you should expect some glares now and then

my gym doesnt have platforms.
it doesnt even have bumper plates nor plates of the same size as the 20kg's.

for any exercise involving the bar on the floor i must use some padding the have. i have to come up with all sorts of gimmicks to have the proper height and i must always control the bar when putting it back on the floor.

this epic video explains how to do it :
youtube.com/watch?v=_drttm5r66A

but i always smash the bar in my thighs when lowering it...

I noticed I've been having problems with my upper back spinal area, where it feels stiff, or tense.

I think it's due to bad form in my deadlifting. I'm due to dead lift 195lbs today. I'm also squatting 165lbs, so I'm a bit concerned about how close they are.

What should I do? Is this something I should worry about? I'll do a form check at the gym today, as well.

dont worry man, just keep going as long as the form for both lifts is fine.
so maybe have someone from here check it.

My squat form is ok, and I'm rewatching Rippetit's deadlift instruction vid to remind myself of proper deadlift form.

and I'm a bit intimidated to post a formcheck vid here. I'll just get one for my weightlifting friend to check on.
Thanks

Record yourself doing it, that's how I fixed my form.

it should be fine if you post it here or on another general.

anyway, for dl just remember the 5 steps. you cant go wrong if you do that. it's the same all the time.

I stared doing it last week after doing a 3 day split for 5 months on off and I find it a lot of fun. I'm 6'4 and I just want to gain size and primarily strength so I guess this is good for me.

Can't seem to get power cleans down.

eat a lot

rewatch all the videos online 100 times, read the chapter on SS book. and record yourself at every single attempt.

I have increased my eating significantly and it shows, my only issue is lunch at work, where I just load up on carbs in the bakery, don't know what to eat.

prepare food at home and bring portions of it daily at the office.

I'm going to be doing so today.
I'll do the 5 steps, and I'm pretty self conscious about the vid, desu.

My 7 month progress on SS. Did some extra exercises such as lateral raises, farmer walks, bicep curls and dips.

Fuckin sick, what was the programme?

ere lads, I struggle a whole fucking lot with power cleans. I just can't do them. I don't understand the correct form and no one at my (((fitness centre))) can show me. Can anyone help? I also struggle with the final movement for it a lot and my hands aren't really flexible enough

also, I struggle with body weight exercises a whole lot. How am I supposed to practice chin ups if I can't DO chin ups?

Also, I'm taking a few weeks off to do volume/ training. Is it ok to do this and then go back? This is just for the sake of muscular endurance and some hypertrophy (partially because I have some imbalances, my left side of my back and shoulder are bigger and it tilts the bar when I squat)

cheers

fuckin ell lad what a transformation

what was your diet like? Did you do absolutely 0 cardio?

My gym doesnt allow power cleans and I don't want to do them anyway, too complicated and autistic. Should I just deadlift more instead?

Do more rows and dlifts.

As the thread suggests i was doing starting strength.
Still lived at my parents at that time so all i did was eat a real meal for breakfast, lunch and dinner and then another one after working out.

Well, i took my bike to the gym and to my school back and forth. So i biked around 25 km 5 times a week at a mild pace.

What I meant was how did you incorporate the other exercises?

did triceps on chest days, biceps on back day, shoulders on press days and farmer walks on squat day.

Power cleans are about as difficult to learn as squats. The only people who claim they're impossibly hard are muh Olympic lifting coaches who want to con you out of hundreds of bucks.

Thousands of people have learned to power clean just by reading a few pages of a book.

Crossfit's injury rate with cleans and snatches isn't due to bad form as such - it's people with okay form doing high rep sets of an exercise which is very sensitive to fatigue.

You're not going to injure yourself learning to clean doing 3 rep sets with just the fucking bar over a period of a week or two.

amazing lad, stats?

Stack plates under the smaller plates to achieve height, and don't drop your babby weight cleans from the top like a fucking idiot, and just be a little bit careful.

You can go through your entire life not dropping a weight you've cleaned from the rack and you'll probably end up stronger for it.

Been doing SL for ~3 months, should I just switch to SS? Been doing power cleans at 50kg at the end of every workout the last couple of weeks to get the technique right.

Do negatives on chins. Check the SS website out which just published a couple of articles on how to go from being unable to do any chin ups to doing them at body weight.

As for cleans, if it's the top you're struggling with, slap your feet down onto the floor and slam your elbows forward. That'll result in a correct rack unless you physically aren't strong enough to rack the weight.

for me, its the jerk motion and raising it in the air that I struggle with the most

well, it's a consensus that there's no benefit for a novice to do 5x5 compared to 3x5. considering how important it was for me to end my workout under an hour, I'd say yes. the time saved could also be used to do other exercises if you prefer them.

Do you mean getting it from your thigh to your shoulders? If so: forget everything else, and just think of it as a jump with the bar in your hands. The jump is what's applying momentum to the bar and causing it to travel upward. It's the same thing that causes you to fall forward when you're on a train and it stops quickly.

The force you apply to the bar when you jump is what carries it up. Not your arms. Or slamming it against your thighs as a lot of US weight lifters seem to like doing. To re-enforce this principle, just jump while holding the empty bar a bunch of times at the jumping position (bar 1/2 to 3/4 way up the thigh with knees and hips unlocked.)

You may have an arm pull without realising it - this is is very common. Try to record yourself to see if this is the case.

but am I not meant to raise the bar too? I mean, if I just jump while holding it, it's gonna stay near my crotch and not fly up above my head, right?

I think you may be thinking of a snatch or a clean and jerk. Bar doesn't go overhead in a power clean, you catch it on your shoulders. Have you checked out the vids on power cleans on the SS YouTube channel?

not him but this is essentially why power cleans instead of cleans.

the shorter ROM requires less work. if you cant get it high enough, you should either reduce weight or squat lower after the jump. using arms is a recipe for injury

Oh fuck I didn't mean over your head, I just meant it going up towards the top of your torso in general. Sorry, I'm shit at explaining. Anyways, point is, will I need to use my body to move the bar, or will the momentum from jumping in itself be enough?

181 cm, 83 kg. 100kg bench, 65kg press, 180kg squat and 180 kg deadlift if i remember correct.

Ive been doing power cleans wrong all those years... I literally thought they where the simplest lift, but they arent.

Hey, I posted this in the qtddtot, but I think I'll get my answer quicker here. Apparently I need 160g of protein a day for my weight, which my vegetarian diet doesn't provide as well as chicken or something like that. My question is, should I get a mass gainer to help me gain the proteins I require?

Oh and I'm running SS, forgot to add that

80kg, so I need 2g/kg right?

Have you got the book? It does a pretty thorough job of explaining this, but here's a summary which is pretty much accurate:

The "jump" is basically a way of curing you to extend your knees and hips simultaneously while also shrugging. That's what applies force to the bar. Once your feet leave the floor, the bar has all the energy it's ever going to get, and will be moving fast enough for you to catch it in the rack.

It's taught that way because it's simpler than trying to tell novices "okay simultaneously extend your knees and hips while trying to stand in your tippy toes before shrugging." Which is what oly coaches try do to more or less which is why so many people struggle with it.

If it wasn't likely to damage the equipment, I'd tell you to jump, then let go of the bar and see what it does. That however is likely to royally piss off the gym staff, so I'll just tell you: it'll carry on straight up in the air.

Just remember, once you've jumped, your arms do nothing. They go from locked into internal rotation (straight out, as in a deadlift, with your elbows 'turned' a little to help lock them straight) to bent with the elbows pointing forward in one motion. Think about slamming your elbows forward as soon as your feet leave the floor.

I'm not trolling if you're thinking that

yeah I got a PDF of the 3rd edition.

Thanks a lot for the explanation user, I'll try to do this.

I'm sorry, you're right. I don't know why I perceived that as 320 or some shit.

no to the mass gainer, just eat more. overnight oats and cottage cheese was how I met my macros, they're dirt cheap.

>repressed issues around strength training and vertical jump he doesn't like to go into
fucking lol, I had never considered that as a possibility but I guess it makes sense.
can you elaborate please?

One gram of protein per pound of body weight is fine, so as an 80kg/176lubber you should actually aim closer to 180. A standard issue whey concentrate will stand you in good stead - mass gainers contain extra carbs rather than extra protein.

this. OP is delusional

>chest day
>back day
>press day
>squat day
>>>>>>Starting Strength

>How am I supposed to practice chin ups if I can't DO chin ups?
do assisted chinups til you can lift your bw.

>i just can't do them
dont be a pussy, both of you. record yourselves and post form check here.

also, read here yes, you can do them.

>((something)) day
that doesnt sound like SS

watch all the slow mo videos to understand what's going on. read the damn book chapter 20 times.
keep your arm straight during the pull at all time til the jump.

you havent read the thread.

It's nothing to do with repressed issues. He includes power cleans because they're the best way to train rate of force development and therefore the best way to train your ability to move explosively, which is vital for athletic performance. The SVJ connection is there because he's acknowledging that thanks to individual neurological considerations, some people will always suck at moving fast. If your clean is still stuck around 35% of your deadlift when your deadlifts like 500lbs and you've been honestly and diligently doing your cleans, it's probably a good indication that you're a motor moron and can safely give up cleans.

More about nutrition on SS for those who have doubts:

startingstrength.com/articles/clarification_rippetoe.pdf

You're sure, right? Because I can't eat a lot despite looking like a skinnyfat cunt.

I dont need to. Clearly you did not read SS or Practical Programming. Or you read it but didnt understand it. Yet you are the one 'promoting' the program with false statements.

pretty sure i have.
so if you have too, then are you also against having novices learning PCs ?

if you want to get more symmetrical hypertrophy, keep doing the main lifts within at least 90% of your normal weight, then add some dumbbell rows/bench/press for sets of 10

Novices should power clean because:
A: you need more recovery when doing heavy deadlifts
B: power should follow strength increases

If you can't eat alot, either add more meals in smaller volume and space them shorter, or , just remember that you cant benefit more than around 32g protein per interval, so that means you take 1 scoop in higher freq. instead.

either way, I think you need to train yourself to eat. massgainers are a sham

exactly. not sure why we're disagreeing then

Gotcha. I think that's the best way. I'll just mix ON with milk and eat the shit out out almonds oats and paneer.

That's what I'm doing. Keeping my lifts, but doing lat raises and press for my right shoulder

are power cleans better than plyometrics for training rate of force production?

no point in doing plyometrics before you're strong.

> video was lulzie

Yes. Jordan Feigenbaum actually quoted a study on his site barbell medicine where they measured rate of force production on a bunch of different exercises. PC was orders of magnitude higher than any of the others, including plyo, snatch, and other barbell exercises.