Why did the regions of China never develop their own national identities during the hundreds of years during which they were divided into feuding kingdoms at war with each other (Three Kingdoms, Northern and Southern Dynasties, Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, etc)
Why did the regions of China never develop their own national identities during the hundreds of years during which they...
Zachary Carter
Isaac Rodriguez
They did.
Asher Morales
They did. the thing is, most of that map wasn't considered China until the Manchu took over like 400 years ago. Tibet, East Turkestan, and Manchuria were never conquered by and ethnically Han Dynasty. For much of the Imperial Chinese History the South wasn't seen as really Chinese. During the Song the the Southern natives were more Sinofied.
Classical Chinese grammar is pretty simple, and the writing system wasn't really based on pronunciation, but instead words. So a dude in the north could write a letter and everyone in China could read it (and people in Vietnam, Korea, and Japan) even though they might not be able to speak to each other.
Imagine the Roman Empire being founded 1000 years earlier. If when the Germans invaded the Roman Empire they got Latinized and basically turned into Romans, and kept the borders more-or-less intact. After existing for over 1000 years, even if it breaks up during periods of instability (like it did) there would still be a need among the unite the empire, because it had been the natural order.
It almost happened in our time, the German invaders to Gaul, Italia, and Hispania were Latinized. But I think legitimizing written regional vulgar Latin dialects, and then giving the Roman crown to non-Latin Germans sort of ruined the concept of the Roman Empire in Europe. And that China had a about a 1000 years of empire building over the Romans.
Michael Diaz
>Tibet, East Turkestan, and Manchuria were never conquered by and ethnically Han Dynasty.
Wrong, typical "western misunderstanding".
Xinjiang(no "east turkstan" back then ) and Mongolia(no mongols back then either) was first conquered by Han dynasty, except outter Mongolia was not occupied by Han dynasty but Tang dynasty; Lasha was briefly conquered and occupied by Tang dynasty, Tibet was protectorate vassal of Ming dynasty and remained tributary relationship; Manchuria was conquered by Ming dynasty.
Jonathan Peterson
>tributary relationship
Tributary relationship doesn't mean shit in the East Asian context.
Especially with Imperial China. If you wanted to trade with China you had to enter into a tributary system. The Ryukyu kingdom was a tributary of China, while being a conquered vassal of Japan. Japan itself was a tributary at various points. Didn't the British even entered into it at one point? You straight up couldn't do trade with China otherwise.
You were better off pointing out he Tang took some land from Tibet, Zhao.
Alexander Carter
>Tributary relationship doesn't mean shit in the East Asian context.
Actually it does mean something, which was why Ryukyu kingdom once asked China for help when Japan invaded them, so did Korea in Imjin War and Vientnam when they faced France invasion. You accepted Chinese imperial authority when you participated in Chinese tributary system. You just too funking ignorant and stupid to know it.
Evan Gray
>why Ryukyu kingdom once asked Qing for help
Well, that would have been super hard since the Qing wasn't established yet. And no the Ryukyu Kingdom didn't ask for help. In fact the Shimazu invasion was a secret, and China never really knew about it since they were blocking trade with Japan.
Also:
>Since neighboring Asian states were required to pay tribute to establish economic relations with the Chinese court, there was little reason for the Chinese to doubt their predominance in the world order. Even the Europeans, who first entered the Chinese waters as early as the 16th century, had submitted to trade within the highly restrictive Chinese system.
Also, while Korea did ask China for help with the Japanese invaded they didn't send any help until the Japanese were entering China. The tributary relations of East Asia are pretty difficult. And doesn't imply what it might in the West. Other than admit I am stronger than you.
Matthew Cook
>everyone who ever paid tribute to China must be considered conquered by China and de jure part of China
so this is what peak Chinaboo looks like
Jacob Wilson
I see you modified your post a big, I guess after skimming through a wiki article. Still,
>You accepted Chinese imperial authority when you participated in Chinese tributary system
You accepted to pay Chinese lip service. Many nations in the tributary system, did so to trade with China but because China conquered them or even posed a real threat. It was trade, that's it. China had a massive ego, but for a lot of the tributaries they had no authority over any country unless those countries let them.
Brandon Clark
They did, you racist.
Don't think of China as a nation state, like France or England. Imagine Chinese civilization as more like Catholic civilization. In Europe you have all these different countries, with wildly different languages and cultures, but still shared a religion, and a religious leader in the Pope.
Imagine if after the fall of the Western Empire, all the kings that popped up in the aftermath all swore vassalage to the Pope as religious and political leader. The Pope ruled as monarch of a vast state called Christia, and the average people just thought; why not? We're all Catholics here.
That's basically China.
Dylan Cooper
>that would have been super hard since the Qing wasn't established yet
Ummm....
britannica.com
>In 1877, however, the Ryukyu king asked for Qing intervention to revive his former tributary relations with China; Sino-Japanese negotiations were opened at Tianjin in regard to Ryukyu’s position, and an agreement was reached in 1882. However, the Qing refused to ratify it, and the matter was dropped.
>while Korea did ask China for help with the Japanese invaded they didn't send any help until the Japanese were entering China.
So China still did send help, right? But that's AFTER Japs had few skirmishes with Jurchen tribes in the border then back to Korea.
Also Chinese tributary systems have more layers and structures than you think.
academic.oup.com
britannica.com
cssn.cn
You think you've read few wikipages then you're an expert? Not really.
Nathaniel Butler
>everyone who ever paid tribute to China must be considered conquered by China and de jure part of China
Nobody ever said that except you, honkie.
John Turner
>I see you modified your post a big
I just put my two separated post together with some terms changed. The basically meaning is still the same.
Jeremiah Evans
>I see you modified your post a big
I just put my two separated posts together with some terms and misspellings changed. The basic meaning is still the same.
Camden Barnes
>In 1877
kek
By that time the Ryukyu Kingdom was already apart of the Japanese Empire, and any pretext of independence was gone, the kingdom would be formally dissolved in a another 2 years and the King made into a marquess. It was just a last attempt that didn't amount to much.
So let's see
>Ryukyu Kingdom asked for help
nothing happened
>Joseon Kingdom asked for help
nothing, until the Japanese entered Chinese territory
Man, you're right. This tributary system means everything
>Also Chinese tributary systems have more layers and structures than you think.
Which is why I said multiple times it wasn't as simple as you fucking tried to play it off as, fuck-tard.
Saying x country was a tributary didn't mean shit. There's more levels to it.
Seriously, get fucked, Zhang. The PRC isn't paying you to shitpost on Veeky Forums.
Brandon Peterson
>In 1877
Yes, that's Qing dynasty, right? Since Ming didn't know Japs secretly invaded Ryukyu, so they couldn't help them, but Qing did try to help them.
Sebastian Campbell
I really didn't know imperial Chinese tributary system can make Veeky Forums honkie supremacist this butthurt, really learn something new every day here, kek.
Wyatt Collins
The Ryukyu kingdom was officially no longer a tributary of the Qing, which is why I assumed you meant the Ming.
You quoted something that says the Ryukyu asked to become one again. ie to get China to help them get their independence from Japan. And then become a tributary.
>Qing did try to help them.
By doing nothing?
Pretty shit example, but what do I know?
Henry Carter
The Vietnamese did develop their own national identity despite having been part of the Chinese empire for centuries.
Samuel Myers
Warring State identities persisted long after the Qin unification and played a large role in the establishment of a new dynasty.
Vietnamese are jungle LARPers who tried to co-opt the Tai Kadai speaking Nanyue who themselves are named after the preeminent Yue polity of the Lower Yangtze. Really no different than how French are named after the historical Franks.
Thomas Harris
>Taiwan not even periphery
Brandon Martin
Qing were around in the 1700s-1800s user. You know, when Japan invaded and annexed Ryukyu.
Andrew Perez
>By that time the Ryukyu Kingdom was already apart of the Japanese Empire,
No. It was not.
Connor Cruz
They did OP, Mao's cultural revolution leveled the field.
Thomas Garcia
Taiwan was nothing. I know the PRC says Taiwan has been Chinese territory since ancient times, but despite its proximity to China, China had been thoroughly uninterested in the Island. Chinese didn't really start settling on to there until the 17th century. Its why the Dutch and Spanish could set up colonies without Chinese interference before then. And its not like there was any real kingdom before then sending tributary missions.
The Satsuma made Ryukyu a vassal in 1609.
>By that time the Ryukyu Kingdom was already apart of the Japanese Empire,
Yeah, it was. Japanese Empire was formed in 1868, Ryukyu was at first a vassal as it had been under the Shogunate via Satsuma. 1872 Ryukyu Kingdom was made into the Ryukyu domain, 1875 Ryukyu formally ended its tributary status at Japan's request.
Mason Walker
>The Satsuma made Ryukyu a vassal in 1609.
Okay? And some important events happened in-between.
Nathaniel Allen
Furthermore, Tibet and Outer Mongolia were vassal states of China for extended periods of time.
If the Ryukyu Kingdom was part of the “Japanese Empire” as a vassal state, then Tibet and Outer Mongolia were part of the Chinese Empire.
Nolan Peterson
>Taiwan was nothing. China had been thoroughly uninterested in the Island. Chinese didn't really start settling on to there until the 17th century.
So if you control a territory for three centuries, it is not at least a peripheral part of your nation? It has nothing to do with your nation?
Aiden Cruz
They did. At the very fucking start even.
There's a reason why the realm of the Chinese Emperor is called "All Under Heaven." When Qin Shi Huang conquered the Huaxia states, each with their cultural and ethnic makeup, as far as he was concerned he conquered the known world. The Emperors of China knew they weren't ruling just one people. Or else they would be just mere Kings (Wang).
People just don't notice that China has loads of national identities within it largely because the peoples of China - especially in "China Proper"- trumpeted their Imperial Identity more than their national/local ones, especially in the face of foreigners outside the Empire. The label "Han," named after the Dynasty- which covers multiple ethnocultural groups- is indicative of this. In Southern China they even call themselves "Tangren" (Peoples of the Tang Dynasty)
Liam Green
>inner mongolia
>is actually outer mongolia
Robert Watson
Right that the western regions were conquered by the Han empire, wrong about tibet which was autonomous fro most of its entirety as a separate polity until the Qing
Easton Ross
from a certain point of view....
Jaxon Brown
The Chinese didn't even have a proper concept of overarching national identity until Sun Yat-sen came along and called for the Han to kick the Manchus out, and then the 1911 revolution added the Manchus to the "Chinese nation" anyway. Before then it was just "we are the civilized people, everyone else are barbarians who have yet to become civilized". The reason the Kuomintang (i.e. Nationalist Party) was needed was to try to create the national identity at all.
Andrew Richardson
Its because Ch*nese "people" are subhuman zipperheads who all look the same; yellow tiny-dicked slit-eyed manlets who eat dogs. They have no individuality, no creativity, no originality or sense of dignity. They are mindless beta drones who are only fit as cannon fodder by their chink emperor or chairman overlord.
Logan Reed
They did, stupid ass. Why do you think China has so many fucking "dialects" (which are more like separate languages).
Samuel Morgan
>Vietnamese are jungle LARPers who tried to co-opt the Tai Kadai speaking Nanyue who themselves are named after the preeminent Yue polity of the Lower Yangtze. Really no different than how French are named after the historical Franks.
You're fucking retarded.
Logan Phillips
>t. Brainlet
Jordan Jackson
t. Nguyen
Where do you think the "Viet" from Vietnamese came from? It wasn't indigenous that's for sure.
David Bailey
My point is that the Vietnamese have every right to the Yue legacy. It's not LARPing, stupid ass.
Carter Parker
t. edgy /pol/fag
Leo Barnes
Only Minyue and Dongou were political successors of the original Yue polity. The Chinese simply assumed anyone further south of these kingdoms were related in some way hence the usage of Baiyue.
Now if we actually look at texts written during the Southern dynasties the un-Sinicized locals of the Lingnan region called themselves Li/Liao which correspond with Tai Kadai autonyms.
Blake Kelly
That's the funny thing, even with so many different dialects they continued to buy the meme that they were all one people and all should naturally be governed by a single government from Xian, Luoyang, Beijing, Nanjing, or wherever. There doesn't seem to have been any serious divergence of identity to the point of them wondering why they should by governed by some imperial lackey from 10,000 miles away who doesn't even speak their language, and instead that their interests would be better served by governing themselves and staying out of affairs of distant provinces.
Ryder Cooper
The better question may be that if this didn't happen in the past, why is it happening so rapidly now with the emergence of the Hong Kong and Taiwanese identities?
Nicholas Gomez
That's because chinks are an eternally subservient slave race that is born to serve and obey. Chinks have no concept of independence.
Landon Barnes
>with the emergence of the Hong Kong and Taiwanese identities
The PRC.
While the Taiwanese identity is emerging, its mostly because saying they are "Chinese in Taiwan" is giving China a claim on the island. Frankly if they knew the PRC wasn't going to declare war on them, Taiwan now would officially change their name from the Republic of China to the Republic of Taiwan. Or, if the PRC was taken out of power and a new Chinese government put in place in the next 20 years there would be a decent chance of Taiwan reuniting of their own accord (A goal of the KMT).
But basically Taiwan and China have been separate for over 100 years, only briefly uniting for like a decade.
That's a long time. Remember, Americans were English, but because of their autonomy, and because of the laws of the British they disagreed with, they separated, even though Americans understood themselves to be ethnically if not culturally English.
Same case for Hong Kong.
Isaiah Evans
Literally what did you mean by this?
Gavin Evans
Ebin, simply ebin. The Chinese system is the closest thing to the paneuropean ethnostate (even united under a religious head of state) you shit eating cunts dream of, but you're too retarded to see it even when it's shoving its tiny asian cock down your throatds.
Jonathan Sullivan
It's funny how the only ones who want a pan-European ethnostate are the white Americans.
Ian Sullivan
nobody wants that
seriously
it's called a white ethnostate