I have a few inquiries about the Komnenian years of the Eastern Roman empire; I've always been fascinated with contemporary Greek culture and history, and to understand the modern Hellenic Republic one must understand that Greece's modern geopolitics is much closer tied to its medieval history than its classical past.
(Manzikert)
>Obviously inept leadership was one of the root causes for the disastrous defeat at Manzikert in 1074, but what other root contributing factors led to the Empire being so poorly managed and defeated by central asian nomads?
(Komnenian Restoration?)
>Sure, the Komenenian family worked wonders for their inheritance, but why did they fail at any attempt to recapture central Anatolia?
They were defeated by the Seljuks at Myriokephalon (and another battle near Iconium, I just cant recall the name atm) while the western crusaders effortlessly captured Sozopolis, Philomelium, Iconium, Antioch in Pisidia, Heraclea and Caesarea; each of those cities not being returned to Imperial control.
>What factors contributed to Imperial failings to recapture and maintain control of central Anatolia from the Turkic peoples?
All-in-all I'm just looking to hear from some more intelligent opinions than my own to help me further understand why this geopolitical entity ceased to live up to its former prestige. It always seems to me that whoever was in control of the Purple simply just dropped the ball when other proven and distinct leaders really could've saved the empire.
>inb4 fanboy I have a keen interest in this empire because I believe its crucial to understand why decaying states decay, and how we can use said practical knowledge in our own states today.
Later Byziness
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>bump because you all suck lol
It began with the corrosion of the themes. The geography of Anatolia dictated communication speed and ultimately control (or lack thereof) of its central highlands. This allowed for the rise of aristocratic military families who abused their wealth and independence to impoverish theme farmers and consolidate land illegally. The Komnenoi are one such example.
While there were reform attempts, most ultimately failed and these Anatolian dynasties were able to create large private armies separate from Constantinople's direct authority. These very private forces would go on to wage civil war after civil war for the throne.
Central Anatolia was the most distant and thus the most corrupt region where this happened. When the Turks began migrating into Anatolia, at first to get away from the growing power of the Seljuks, they found this region depopulated and largely abandoned in places due to the theme farmers having been driven out. Some even came to prefer the Turks as governors since their tax policies were fairly straightforward and not all that interested in cheating farmers out of their land.
>It began with the corrosion of the themes. The geography of Anatolia dictated communication speed and ultimately control (or lack thereof) of its central highlands. This allowed for the rise of aristocratic military families who abused their wealth and independence to impoverish theme farmers and consolidate land illegally. The Komnenoi are one such example.
So basically what you're stating is that Themetic administrators abused their power and consolidated their own control and influence over their respective provinces?
>While there were reform attempts, most ultimately failed and these Anatolian dynasties were able to create large private armies separate from Constantinople's direct authority. These very private forces would go on to wage civil war after civil war for the throne.
So basically these decentralized themes possessed their own armies and would fight petty wars amongst each other, or local armies aligning themselves against the capital?
>Central Anatolia was the most distant and thus the most corrupt region where this happened. When the Turks began migrating into Anatolia, at first to get away from the growing power of the Seljuks, they found this region depopulated and largely abandoned in places due to the theme farmers having been driven out. Some even came to prefer the Turks as governors since their tax policies were fairly straightforward and not all that interested in cheating farmers out of their land.
What were the ethnic demographics of central Anatolia prior to/shortly after the initial Seljuk invasion of 1074? I read before that the regions were sparsely populated with Greeks, exiled ethnic groups from the balkans, Germanics, Assourians, Antolian peoples, and Syrians, but when did it become dominantly Turkic?
What game is that?
These abuses mostly happened beyond the reach of Constantinople to swiftly act against them. If it took a week or more to send a message back and forth over a legal dispute, the better chances local aristocrats had of winning despite the capital's attempts to prevent it. This allowed for powerful dynasties with the lands and thus the money to support their own bids for the throne. It's not a coincidence that the Komnenoi, Doukas, and Angeloi all shared this background.
Of course, being keenly aware of the power of Anatolian generals to steal the throne, since many sitting emperors had gotten it the same way, the 12th and 13th century governors and emperors tended to favor mercenaries rather than local forces they couldn't predict.
Unfortunately this included Normans and Turks who had their own traditions of kingship that could be culturally detached from the concept of Roman emperor. Thus when the various Turkic mercenaries throughout Anatolia rebelled, they preferred to be ruled by a Sultan among their ranks rather than support his bid to become another usurper emperor.
It probably took a long time for Central Anatolia to become predominantly Turkic, if ever. Mostly you had those same local people who in the absence of Byzantine authority, proximity to Turks, and even separation from Byzantine land by a no-mans-land where whole villages could be uprooted and moved, many became economically and culturally connected to the nomads.
Late Byzantine period is a shit show
>At Smyrna, the Aydınoglu Turks finally take the upper citadel (Greek Pagos; Tk: Kadifekale, ‘velvet castle’) from the Byzantines. The Genoese will hold the lower town until 1329. —Nicol 1993: 143. Most of the town’s population, obviously, were Greeks; one can only imagine, imperfectly, what may have been the daily relations between Turk, Greek and Genoese.
>The capture of Kadifekale (the citadel) on Pagos Mountain by Aydınoglu Mehmet Bey inaugurates the real Turkish age in Izmir (Smyrna). His troops took Kadifekale in 1317 or 1318 but he was unable to capture the harbour-castle (lower citadel). Plainly the Genoese were superior at sea, able to prevent any full blockade of the latter.
>Smyrna harbour castle was later captured by Timur in 1402
It wasn't worth it, they couldn't hold it it's not defensible unless they reclaimed the mountains
Under Alex they took back lots of coastal towns, but that was only due to the crusades giving him a break, without the crusades they'd have had to bleed the coffers dry to support an army which would have to be mercs, you overestimate the might of the empire
this, google gives me nothing
Looks like the raw map of Attila tw
not really
why do retards still put us Hellenes with the Byzantine subhumans? they were never Greeks. The Komninai were Minor Asiatics. Not Greek.
The modern Greek Republic is filled with Armenian, Albanian and Slavic descendants who dont give a shit about Greece.
It literally is atilla
Sorry but i just don't see it mate
it's my minecraft world
^^^^^^^^^^
The Byzantine Empire was obviously multiethnic, but after Manzikert, the only provinces left to the Byzantines were the predominantly hellenic areas, hence why they put more effort into protecting them.
The Byzantines were the first to overdose on diversity, so to speak; they realized this far too late at the end of the 12th-14th centuries when there was a brief moment of hellenic ethnocentrism under the Palaiologoi, but the empire's manpower and finances were too far gone by the time this realization was made after being butchered by the Latins in 1204 in retaliation for the massacre of the latins in the twelfth century.
it literally is minecraft
Would it be a fair comparison to parallel contemporary United States with the later Roman Empire (Byz)?
>dilution of the original identity with foreign peoples
>small number of families competing amongst each other for control of the Empire
>reliance on foreigners to fill the ranks of the army
>economic decline from their golden era
>in retaliation for the massacre of the latins in the twelfth century.
That's not why they did it.
I understand their military was laughable, it clearly wasn't to the same degree professionally as it once as, but my real inquiry is why exactly could they not reform their military to become a capable and effective combat force against their many adversaries?
Been workin on it for many years with my Uni bros, there are armies, navies, trade, and supply chains involved. Pretty dope if any of you lads get bored after work and wanna see the earth in MC; Got cities from Europe, Africa, ME, India, to Asia.
That is a mod for atilla
FUCKING KNEW IT WAS MINECRAFT I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG
yup, definitely atilla.
You won this thread, you may now claim your prize.
Don't know anything about minecraft modding but it looks really impressive, you inspired me to play it again and i haven't touched it since like 2011
youtube.com
bear in mind this was the map two years ago, and we overhauled it since, but definitely consider joining if you wanna experience the most immersive historical role playing game imaginable. We're all university students across the US and Europe.
> That's not why they did it.
doesnt explain why they did it
I've played that map before it's Constantinople on atilla
not really considering that 90% of Minor Asia was non Greek. and they never cared about anything other than their capital.
>hellenic ethnocentrism under the Palaiologoi
The Palaiologoi were mixed themselves. Byzantium has nothing to do with Hellas. The one who was obviously Greek was Plethon and his crew. Everything else about the Byzantine Empire is as foreign as the Ottoman.
ανάθεμα σε ρε μαλαkισμένο, σε γαμώ kαι εσένα kαι την Αλβανίδα την μάνα σου
stop responding to the AlbanoSlavic rapebaby
The Jews
hahahah whats wrong misellen judeo worshipper?
bring forth some arguments anatologlou
φάμου τον πέουλο
childish insults is all the subhuman orthoshit can bring forth. like calling his ancestors idolworshippers while he worships a jew carpenter.
orthodox people have lied to both of us my friend
then just whom exactly is telling the truth?
>he doesn't know that the Abrahamic God is the Unknown God
so much for being a wewuzzer lmao
you should read the sources and make up your own mind. as for me i can only say, that orthodox people have made it abundantly clear throughout their history that they never cared about the real Greece. which is natural considering they arent of Greek descend. many of them atleast.
1. The Unknown God was built for all the Gods that were unknown to the Greek world. All mentions of the temple by Pausanias and others, were "the Unknown Gods".
2. Your God is known and we have his name. Its the jewish diety Yahweh and his son rabbi Yeshua bar Yosef. They arent exactly unknown are they?
is there any sort of download available? that's fucking awesome, dude
Why is Lisbon on the wrong side of the river
C-can I join?
>and they never cared about anything other than their capital.
What a bunch of bullshit, even after the 4th crusade happened the empire of Nicaea fought to reclaim Greece, and even held on to it while losing Anatolia after becoming Byzantium again
No they fought reclaim their empire
The Byzantines were left with predominantly Romano-Greek holdings after the Arab Conquests. But ever since the 6th century there was demographic changes happening throughout the empire, and Manzikert was not a milestone in that regard.
>The Byzantines were the first to overdose on diversity
That's not it at all. The Byzantines were very chauvinist and regularly clashed with those they considered non-Roman in either faith or culture. The real challenge was the appearance of people both within and around their borders who had their own political culture that recognized rivals to the imperial throne and church.
And Greece was a crucial part of the empire. There's a reason why there were Serbian, Bulgarian and even Armenian rebellions but no Greek rebellions within the Byzantine Empire.
Because Greek rebellions are generally usurpations.
And that further confirms that the LARPer ITT is full of shit by cutting off the Byzantine Empire from Greece's identity.
They did it because the fucking French dukes didn't pay their debts for the huge fleet they told the Venetians to build. Venice spent like a year putting the entire productive and economic power of their city into building this gigantic fleet only to have the French show up at the appointed time with like 1/3 of the money and a ":^)". Venice would be ruined if this debt wasn't paid so they decided to raid the (Christian!) Adriatic coast and used a succession dispute as a pretext to loot Constantinople. The Byzantine Empire fell because the French reneged on their fucking debt. Think about that the next time you see a Greek flag and sputter out "pay denbts".
Checked though
>the closest you will get to experiencing byzantium in person is a block-shaped world in a children's video game
join me.
A bit twisted, however what you're leaving out is the fact it was a disenfranchised Byzantine noble usurper who had a former claim to the throne who promised the Latins payment for installing him on the throne; they did not have initial intentions to sack and plunder the city.
blesseth thou
>Because Greek rebellions are generally usurpations.
>Usurpers
Duh, because they were in control; it could arguably be made it was a lot like being "white" in contemporary America.
>chekd n kekd
>The Byzantines were left with predominantly Romano-Greek holdings after the Arab Conquests. But ever since the 6th century there was demographic changes happening throughout the empire, and Manzikert was not a milestone in that regard.
There were still foreign peoples exiled into central anatolia, it wasn't just densely Greek, but it was arguably more Greek following the Arab conquests.
>That's not it at all. The Byzantines were very chauvinist and regularly clashed with those they considered non-Roman in either faith or culture. The real challenge was the appearance of people both within and around their borders who had their own political culture that recognized rivals to the imperial throne and church.
I see your point, but I think you're missing mine. The Byzantines were a very proud people and did clash with foreigners, however they did take on far greater numbers of foreigners into their empire than any other western kingdom, the same can even be said about the Islamic khalifats disintegrating due to hyperdiversity. The iconoclasms, religious divisions, and relentless rebellions and usurpations clearly reflect a divided peoples.
pay motherfuckers
>4 posts away
feelsbadman
yeah, I fucking know, that's what happens when you trust someone to build portugal who has no fucking knowledge.
>if you want a job done right do it yourself
>cheks out
yes please check the youtube link
I dont have a download because I'm a perfectionist but if you interact with the youtube video I can get you on
>you should read the sources and make up your own mind. as for me i can only say, that orthodox people have made it abundantly clear throughout their history that they never cared about the real Greece. which is natural considering they arent of Greek descend. many of them atleast.
Interesting take, I'll read with more of an open mind next time.
>And Greece was a crucial part of the empire.
how exactly? Greece was overrun countless times because the Byzantines were too incompetent.
>but no Greek rebellions within
that is because there was no greek identity during that time. people were divided by their religion.
Greek rebellions happened after the rise of nationalism.
>But ever since the 6th century there was demographic changes happening throughout the empire
you do know that Byzantines imported Armenians into Greece because they were Orthodox right? Most of the "turkish rape babies" are actually Anatolian peoples who were sent to Greece.
>Byzantine Empire from Greece's identity.
>non greek army
>non greek emperors
>non greek religion
ok
>that is because there was no greek identity during that time. people were divided by their religion.
>there was a Serbian identity
>there was a Bulgarian identity
>there was an Armenian identity
>but somehow the Greeks were absent throughout the empire
Your are fucking retarded. The Greeks were the ROMANS. Even now an alternate name for Greeks is Romioi (Romans).
>inb4 b-b-but they're not Greek!!11! cuz Anatolia
If you want to blame somebody for the presence of Hellenic culture in Anatolia and the Middle East then point at Alexander the Great. Thanks to him, Greeks have settled throughout the Middle East and left their own communities there which even if they mixed with native populations the fact remains that they embraced Hellenic culture and are therefore Greeks. Also, if the Armenians that you say replaced Greeks in Greece then why did they keep speaking Greek instead of Armenian throughtout the ages?
Post the save please?
Who cares if the local populations took over hellenic ideas, if they don't have greek blood they aren't greek.
>there was a Serbian identity
>there was a Bulgarian identity
these people had their own identity before becoming christian and still considered each other seperate from the Byzantines. i dont know about Armenians though. do you then not understand why they cant be compared to Greeks? may i remind you that your religion still calls our ancestors dirty idol worshippers and portrays them as retards, while praising judaism?
>The Greeks were the ROMANS.
wrong the Romans had Greek ancestry but were mixed with Italic tribes.
>Even now an alternate name for Greeks is Romioi (Romans).
i know. doest make it right. this is mostly from the people who think the Byzantines had any Greek in them.
>If you want to blame somebody for the presence of Hellenic culture in Anatolia and the Middle East then point at Alexander the Great.
>Hellenic culture=orthodoxy
no
>Thanks to him, Greeks have settled throughout the Middle East and left their own communities
>if they mixed with native populations
they were if at all 5% of the population. Greeks were a priviliged class and put themselves above the rest. not saying that is right or wrong. just what it was.
>embraced Hellenic culture and are therefore Greeks
ok then my friend Kwame who believes in Jesus Christ is now a Greek, just like the first constitution said (kek). Also Socrates and Pericles arent Greeks now.
>Also, if the Armenians that you say replaced Greeks in Greece then why did they keep speaking Greek instead of Armenian throughtout the ages?
how should i know? the importation of non Greeks is fact. read Phocas for instance. Are you denying that there are obvious remnants of people who look like Armenians? Pontics to this day speak a language which is not Greek.
>Who cares if the local populations took over hellenic ideas, if they don't have greek blood they aren't greek.
they took them because they mingled with Greeks you mong, an entire population will not change identity if it doesn't mix with its conqueror
>see: the nations under Ottoman rule
>wrong the Romans had Greek ancestry but were mixed with Italic tribes.
EXPOSED
>>Hellenic culture=orthodoxy
More like the rise of Christianity is owed thanks to Hellenism being widespread in the Middle East, which made it easier to spread within the Roman Empire and then Europe
>ok then my friend Kwame who believes in Jesus Christ is now a Greek, just like the first constitution said (kek). Also Socrates and Pericles arent Greeks now.
If he's half Greek then he's still Greek or if he's part Greek but was raised with the Greek standard of life then he's still Greek. If they aren't considered Greek then by your logic the only Arab nations in the world are the Gulf Arabs
>how should i know? the importation of non Greeks is fact. read Phocas for instance. Are you denying that there are obvious remnants of people who look like Armenians? Pontics to this day speak a language which is not Greek.
Even if they did, the fact remains that they've been completely assimilated which shows that their influence was barely much. Also are you seriously implying that Pontics aren't Greeks?
>More like the rise of Christianity is owed thanks to Hellenism being widespread in the Middle East,
early christians were jews
>which made it easier to spread within the Roman Empire and then Europe
you mean after they outlawed polytheism?
>If he's half Greek then he's still Greek or if he's part Greek but was raised with the Greek standard of life then he's still Greek.
t. Shqiptary Shqiptoglou
>If they aren't considered Greek then by your logic the only Arab nations in the world are the Gulf Arabs
yes
>Even if they did, the fact remains that they've been completely assimilated which shows that their influence was barely much.
muh integration. so you are in favour of mass immigration? kek
>Also are you seriously implying that Pontics aren't Greeks?
Pontics never even considered themselves Greeks before Orthodoxy. They are an Armenoid peoples as Xenophon has noted
>their influence was barely much.
yes if you dont count out dna beeing far from our ancestors.
The autist is right
Anatolian Greeks are LARPers
Anatolian Greeks drop your Greek identity and revive your Ancient Anatolian culture
>Anatolian "Greeks" are closer to Armenians than Anatolian "Turks"
how?
>early christians were jews
The first predominately Christian province in the Roman Empire was Cyprus, which is also Greek.
>you mean after they outlawed polytheism?
Christianity spread easily throughout the Roman empire even before Constantine was born.
>t. Shqiptary Shqiptoglou
Not even a likely Greek name but ok.
>yes
Go tell them that then
>muh integration. so you are in favour of mass immigration? kek
Mass immigration implies being conquered indirectly so no.
>Pontics never even considered themselves Greeks before Orthodoxy. They are an Armenoid peoples as Xenophon has noted
Pontus was a mix of Hellenic and Persian cultures, and even its major cities were predominately Greek.
Anatolian Greeks lack mongoloid admixture.
>The first predominately Christian province in the Roman Empire was Cyprus, which is also Greek.
They had been killed by your spiritual ancestors prior that and was mostly jewish
>Christianity spread easily throughout the Roman empire even before Constantine was born.
hahahahah
>who is theodosios i.
>Go tell them that then
Are you actually implying non Arabs are Arabs?
>Mass immigration implies being conquered indirectly so no.
But resettling thousands of non greeks is cool because you share the same jewish religion?
>Pontus was a mix of Hellenic and Persian cultures, and even its major cities were predominately Greek.
Only the coastal regions. The rest was considered barbadian. As already told you they arent greeks
>They had been killed by your spiritual ancestors prior that and was mostly jewish
where's your proof
>hahahahah
>>who is theodosios i.
Are you retarded? Christianity didn't just appear out of nowhere.
>Are you actually implying non Arabs are Arabs?
Go tell them that you fucking wuss.
>But resettling thousands of non greeks is cool because you share the same jewish religion?
And yet nothing had changed, almost like the settlement you're talking about is insignificant
>Only the coastal regions. The rest was considered barbadian. As already told you they arent greeks
Haplogroups are irrelevant. Even west, east and south slavs are distant genetically but are still slavs.
Speak Greek you fucking LARPer, otherwise you're nothing more than a butthurt Monkeydonian or Albanian trying to stirr up shit.
>1. The Unknown God was built for all the Gods that were unknown to the Greek world. All mentions of the temple by Pausanias and others, were "the Unknown Gods".
Simply incorrect, it was never plural, also they wouldn't build temples to a whole bunch of gods they didn't know, they never did that, temples were always dedicated to one god
>jewish
Jesus called Jews the synagogue of Satan and whipped their asses to the curb, so much for being a rabbi, huh pagankiddo?
>Pontics to this day speak a language which is not Greek
The shanty town of (You)
Let me guess, you also support the idea of a "white Greece"
Is that the old int earth map from autism craft?
>Simply incorrect, it was never plural, also they wouldn't build temples to a whole bunch of gods they didn't know, they never did that, temples were always dedicated to one god
"Here there is also a temple of Athena Sciras, and one of Zeus some distance away, and altars of the gods named Unknown, and of heroes, and of the children of Theseus and Phalerus;"
read Pausanias
also just how retarded are you christcucks that you think that everything revolves around you? the Ancient Greeks despised Judaism.
>Jesus called Jews the synagogue of Satan and whipped their asses to the curb, so much for being a rabbi, huh pagankiddo?
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to Him and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” 27 “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
27 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
yeah sure whatever
i know that they speak greek. many of them speak also russian and some other language. most of them speak greek with an accent.
>Let me guess, you also support the idea of a "white Greece"
no i think that anyone who truly desires and closes his eyes can become Greek. i also approve of importing foreign peoples and taking ressources away from us to them.
>where's your proof
are you not aware of the genocide the Jews commited on our fellow Cypriots?
>Are you retarded? Christianity didn't just appear out of nowhere.
they were mostly jews. and then later spread through mostly force. as your heroes the spanish Theodosios I. and Justinian have done.
>And yet nothing had changed, almost like the settlement you're talking about is insignificant
yes other than putting us genetically closer to the east and importing non Greeks into Greece and playing them off as Hellenes. Tell me, what exactly makes your jewish religion and the Anatolians Greek?
>Haplogroups are irrelevant. Even west, east and south slavs are distant genetically but are still slavs.
sure and since we agree that culture is important. we can agree that the Ancient Greeks were not Greeks and the new "Greeks" who share nothing with that of old Hellas are now Greeks. Are you also lgbt by chance? kek
>Speak Greek you fucking LARPer, otherwise you're nothing more than a butthurt Monkeydonian or Albanian trying to stirr up shit.
γιατι? επειδη λεω πραγματα που δεν σου αρεσουν? τι Ελλαδα ειναι αυτη που ζουμε, αν δεν εχει τον παλιο της χαραkτηρα?