Is Andronovo culture the source of south Asian indo-european languages?

Neolithic Iranians.
Almost all Indians have CHG admixture which also was the component of Zagros farmers and Elamites.
Haplogroup J2 is pretty common in southern India so at that least is from Dravidians.

Yes they were, why else would they be in fucking Pakistan where the IVC was?
Then how did they end up there? IVC came later, no?

So why do Dravidians look so distinct from Iranians?

Wrong, both Indians and Iranians have PIE-derived ancestry. In both cases there was a migration from the Black/Caspian seas of roughly the same peoples down into India and Iran.

Because of local admixture. Mexican Mestizos rarely look like Spaniards. Same thing.

But Mexican and South American mestizos look quite alike.

Iranians lack ASI(Ancestral South Indians) for the most part.

>Aryans
wasnt that just the name of the nobility?

Modern Indians have next to no IE admixture left in them.

Yeah you're not gonna find much of that in South Asia.
Pamiris are the last of the Indo-Iranians who have more steppe admixture than Europeans.
Some even have the characteristic blonde hair although not many.

Who were they? Dravidian? Harappan? Local HG?

Noble caste descended from indo-aryan invaders. It can be seen as a decreasing trend of European affinity from the upper castes to the lower.

Indian castes arent just social constructs, they are very real population groups of varying ancestries.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC311057/

Isnt there a pretty prominent swath of r1a in the indian north?

Sure but you can still find passable ethnic Iranians in Persians and especially northern ones closest to the Caucasus like Ossetians, Manzanderanis, and Gilakis who have light hair and eyes as well. No such thing really exists in Indians any more.

They do. Especially the upper caste.

>For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (∼600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

Then why are they almost black tier looking like other Australoids

Because India is subtropical and does not support a trend of depigmentation. Light features are selected against.

this

Sorry, seems that most of it is actually tropical

The highest castes in Northern India are very often the lightest skinned and the most Caucasoid looking. India is a huge country with over a billion people, there are many dravidians but still tens of millions of light-skinned Indians with high amounts of PIE ancestry.

>high amounts
like 5-10%? Lol

Nigger, Iranians live in a country where almost a third of it is fucking in the desert and they aren't remotely and I mean seriously, REMOTELY, close to looking as dark as Indians, even ignoring ethnic Dravidians.

Georgians are much lighter than Iranians on average.
Anyway you're not gonna die if you have brown skin in a desert. It's good enough especially if you don't run around buttnaked like Indians.

I don't know if you've ever been to Georgia, but they really aren't. In fact Russian bias and prejudice/discrimination against Georgians is heavily due to the fact they look similar to Iranians and Armenians.

Some Georgians are pretty brown and tanned, brah. Just like some Iranians are pretty fair skinned. Not that its surprising, Iranians are most closely related to Circassians, Georgians, and other Caucasus people anyways and Georgians for centuries were transplanted into Iran in mass numbers by the Safavids which had a huge impact on their culture.

Anyway as for the jungle thing, I don't think that would justify why Indians are a hell of a lot darker than Iranians or even most Semitic or other Near Eastern/North African people. Most Mesoamericans and Hispanics come from heavily jungle areas like in South America and don't come close to them. I just chalk it up to Dravidian influence.

Russians hate everyone. Circassians are fair but they killed them like animals in 19th century.
Georgians are a bit darker than Circassians but lighter than Iranians. Might have something to do with Iranians living in the desert and all.

>2001
That's old.

100% of Iranians live north of India. North Indians can be around as light as most Iranians.

I refuse to believe that Harappans were Dravidians. It's not even a racial thing, it just doesn't make sense. They were probably neolithic Iranians. J2 is also common in the North and in Pakistan.

You refuse because of your feelings? How do you propose Dravidian ended up being spoken all the way in Pakistan then?

I refuse because it doesn't make sense.

>A third theory says the Brahui migrated to Balochistan from Central India after 1000 AD. The absence of any older Iranian (Avestan) influence in Brahui supports this last hypothesis. The main Iranian contributor to Brahui vocabulary is a northwestern Iranian language, Baluchi, Sindhi and southeastern Iranian language, Pashto.[7]
Wow, great source.

Can you show me other highly advanced cultures such as the Indus Valley civilization in South India? Because cultures like that existed in Iran.

What about it doesn't make sense?

A putative Eastern Eurasian population distantly related to the Onge,Negritos and Hoabinhian cultures. We don't know when they split off from the Onge related populations of Southeast Asia or whether they are several divergent populations if we go by native Indian uniparentals.

>
Can you show me other highly advanced cultures such as the Indus Valley civilization in South India? Because cultures like that existed in Iran.
The fuck does this even mean and how does it refute my argument? And Dravidians migrated to South India and Sri Lnka later so of course there wouldn't be an advanced culture there at the time of Harappa, but there is already a rather advanced site near Mumbai around 2000 bc

Everything.
>Near East and Middle East are the origins of Neolithic farming and sedentary settlements
>Anatolian farmers spread farming to Europe
>There were advanced settlements in Iran when most of South Indians were still hunter gatherers
>Neolithic Iranians and Caucausus Hunter Gatherers were genetically very similar, it's very likely that the Y haplogroup J spread from Neolithic Iran.

Dravidians may not have yet inhabited South India at the time though

J2 is common enough among Dravidians as is the CHG component of Iranian farmers relative to Andamanese who lack it.

Yes that was my point...

Dravidians weren't and aren't the hunter-gatherers in south india though - those were there before the Dravidians showed up. Dravidians probably came from civilizations in Iran where they learnt agriculture/derived from semi-agricultural peoples, settled and founded IVC, then were driven into south india later.

There's no better candidate for IVC than Dravidians, I don't know why you find this hard to believe.

what the fuck does "corded ware" even mean and how did they come up and why with the term?

After the collapse of the Indus Valley civilization the locals probably mixed with Dravidians.

>There's no better candidate for IVC than Dravidians, I don't know why you find this hard to believe.
Shitting in the streets and drinking cow piss.
>The term Corded Ware culture (German: Schnurkeramik-Kultur, Dutch: touwbekercultuur, French: ceramique cordée) was first introduced by the German archaeologist Friedrich Klopfleisch in 1883.[4] He named it after cord-like impressions or ornamentation characteristic of its pottery.[4] The term Single Grave culture comes from its burial custom, which consisted of inhumation under tumuli in a crouched position with various artifacts. Battle Axe culture, or Boat Axe culture, is named from its characteristic grave offering to males, a stone boat-shaped battle axe

>Shitting in the streets and drinking cow piss.
Right, so you admit what your bias and agenda is here. Good.

>Right, so you admit what your bias and agenda is here. Good.
Right. Unlike Indian government that didn't want to let the study out.

Attached: Aryan science.gif (480x480, 1.91M)

>Dravidians probably came from civilizations in Iran where they learnt agriculture/derived from semi-agricultural peoples
There is zero evidence for this.

Indians retardedly clinging to Out of India and practicing bad history doesn't justify being biased yourself.

isn't the whole problem of the PIE terminology being used is that people assume its a racial element? I thought it was primarily cultural/linguistic.

They didn't release it for an entirely different reason...relating to Europe and colonialism.
The official position of the Indian government is that Indo-Europeans originate in India.
This whole idea that Indian government are pro-Dravidian and pro-Aryan invasion exists only in your own head.

>The official position of the Indian government is that Indo-Europeans originate in India.
Well, they're fucking retarded then.

>racial
It's not racial. PIE are essentially a mix of two groups - Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. Indo-Iranians who moved to India were already admixed with European Farmers and Iranians (but it's hard to tell because CHG and Neolithic Iranians are really similar genetically).

If they both came from Neolithic Iran, and invented agriculture (IVC), it's highly unlikely that they invented it independently, especially given IVC connections with the Near East. It's just a guess - close to nothing about the prehistory of Dravidians is known.

It was cultural/linguistic, just like later Turkic peoples were a genetic mess. But the IE languages spread along with their genes, and the early IE peoples all share some very definable genetics.

This. Indians themselves are generally anti-Dravidian, even though an enormous amount of their culture isn't Aryan-derived, and presumably (given what we know of Dravidian religion/culture) probably was Dravidian inspired at the least (not to mention their genes, lol). Indians want to believe that Sanskrit and Aryans came from India, which makes IVC Aryan too.

Dravidians are unrelated to IVC, there is no continuity. There is over 2000 years between IVC and first Dravidian civilizations. Brahui claim to be immigrants from South India and this is supported by linguistic evidence suggesting they same to modern Pakistan in the second millennium.

They probably came from Malwa not IVC
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malwa_culture

Attached: Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).png (1144x726, 295K)

If anything North Indians are more Aryan than Iranians...
Far more Indians have r1a while the majority of Iranians are J haplogroup: so basically Near easterners

Attached: R1a1a distribution.jpg (600x388, 78K)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399854/table/pone-0041252-t001/

Attached: pone.0041252.g001.jpg (685x459, 167K)

A bit offtopic but also ontopic, how different were IE languages in 2000 BC?

Kalash are a very interesting people. Their religion is pretty much original Rig Vedic proto-Hinduism and they look far "whiter" than their neighbours.

>indo-european

I keep seeing this buzzword thrown around. It means nothing.

Maybe like Slavic languages today or a bit more different because of non-IE substrates

Early Rig-Veda works have no Dravidian loanwords, but many Austroasiatic ones. The Indus Valley civilization likely spoke Austroasiatic. There are still people in India who speak Munda languages.

Except that Aryan states in North India have the highest rates of poverty and open defecation and the Dravidian states the least.

Indians are barely steppe though, them having 2% of an actual "Aryan" DNA doesn't make them Aryan.

Yes, but there is nothing inferior about Dravidian people, the Southern Indian states have a far better living standards. You can also say that the high caste Indian with the highest "Aryan" ancestry cause the shitty living standards in northern India by perupetuating the caste system and de facto medieval style serfdom and feudalism in the countryside.

Central, Northern, and Eastern Iran are not desert at all. Persians in Tehran are pretty fair, mate.

It has more to do with equatorial/polar differences and overall sun exposure than climate per se. You'll find black Africans in all kinds of climates, including even chilly montane/uplands.

Indians don't have CHG in significant portions to be Aryan.

you do know Yamna were a late-PIE group and predominately R1b, right? It's R1a that's high frequency in South Asia.

What does CHG have to do with Aryans?
It's more Dravidian in Pakistan and India. Andronovo had only about 30% CHG.

How do you define fair mate? Cause I googled Tehran parade and protest and Iranians from there aren't fair at all.

> shitskins aren't inferior

Iran is a cumdumpster of so many peoples. Your link literally proves that many different people dumped their cum load in Iran. R1b in Iran is due to Indo-European invasions from Anatollia, R1a is due to Scythian invasions, J1 to Arab invasions, Q to hunnic/Turkic/Mongolian invasions and so on.

Is Iran the most cucked nation on earth?

Wtf? Vedic has a Dravidian substratum, not Austroasiatic. There's a few austroasiatic loanwords, like "Bengal" (which could also be Dravidian), but the phonological innovations like retroflex, etc. and loanwords into Indic languages are almost all Dravidian..

I know a Zoroastrian from Tehran and she definitely doesn't have this fair skin. It's brown.

Northern Iran is the whitest part of Iran but I wouldn't call them fair.

Attached: IMG_7812.jpg (640x400, 78K)

>about 30% CHG
exactly, I don't understand what user thinks the point of contention here is
the proto-Indo-Iranians clearly had significant CHG related steppe ancestry

how little you really understand

Wrong. Number one, Arabs, Turks, and Mongols have next to little genetic influence on Iranians period.
Shit image.
You didn't try very hard.
youtube.com/watch?v=7y_AqbcGFGg&t=71s

Northern Iran is mostly Cauccasian/Neolithic Iranian genetics, not steppe.

Then explain why are the "shitskin" areas of India more developed.

Go back home, /pol/.

Tbh after the age thread in /int/ I am not surprised, most people here are literal children.

>drinking cow piss.
Dumbfuck, this is an Aryan-derived practice
iranicaonline.org/articles/barasnom

Not in early Rig Vedas.

Where is this 30% figure coming from? Show attested sources please.

They actually do kind of look indian too. The young guy at the front especially.

>Northern Iran is the whitest part
That's funny because both central and western Iran are whiter than northern Iran outside of Gilan and Mazerderan.

Vedic Sanskrit has more Dravidian influence (which is to say, not that much), than it's Austroasiatic influence, lmao. A cursory look at phonology makes this painfully obvious.

Yamna had about 40%. Andronovo had Ukrainan farmer admixture on top of that. It's all in the Allentoft 2015 paper.

Show me the actual source, link me the article, etc...

are those fake tans? they look like fucking jersey shore.