Byzantine Empire

A lack of manpower was precisely the problem that plagued the Byzantines during their decline.

not ‘precisely’ as it was the consequence of various other problems. Even then pre Manzikert Anatolia was in a much better shape population wise than Anatolia during the Beylik period(or any period under ottoman rule).

lmao what? Even after Manzikert they still had a population of over 10 million during the Komnenos era.

Rest assure heathen!
Φοβοῦ τοὺς Δαναοὺς kαὶ δῶρα φέροντας

No, Byzantines were pathetic
>Byzaboo delusions

Ottomans were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay superior to Byzantines. You underage Byzaboos should fuck off to r/ParadoxPlaza or to r/Byzantium and leave history to bigboys like us. Don't forget to drink your milk and sleep. You have school tomorrow.

Also Ottomans resembled Iranian empires and Seljuks more than they did Byzantines.

Their population was Greek and Anatolian and they continued many traditions of the Byzantines as well as adopting titles and names from them.

>they still had a population of over 10 million
source: my byzaboo ass/a byzaboo historian

Even in 1600s population of Anatolia was around 5-6 million (and Kurdish-Turkish influx into Anatolia happened on top of that). But Byzantines also controlled Greece and some irrelevant Slavlands. At most Peasantines have like 7-8 million people in their land.

>Their population was Greek and Anatolian

Underage, don't try to discuss genetics with me. I always wreck your kind. Your "le Turks are just assimilated they no Turk xDDD" meme is already debunked.

Ottoman population consisted of Turks, Kurds and Armenians plus Anatolians that LARPed as Greeks. But Turks were the majority.

>Byzantines as well as adopting titles and names from them

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

Underage retard. Ottomans didn't adopt any title from Peasantines. Ottoman sultans were called KHANS (Turkic title) SULTANS (Arabic title) and PADISHAHS (Iranic title)

And these 3 peoples Turkics Arabs and Iranians were the eternal enemies of Peasantines.

Attached: we wuz greekz n bulgarian n armenian and shit.png (659x265, 7K)

Yes, assimilated Armenians and Anatolians were Byzantine and made up the bulk of the population.

biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/18/015396.full.pdf

>Previous genetic studies have generally used Turks as representatives of ancient Anatolians. Our results show that Turks are genetically shifted towards Central Asians, a pattern consistent with a history of mixture with populations from this region

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
>In comparison, the weight for the migration event predicted to originate from the branch ancestral to East Asia (presumably Central Asia) into current-day Turkey was 0.217

etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf

>Moreover, results pointed out that language in Anatolia might not have been replaced by the elites, but by a large group of people. Therefore, it can be concluded that the observations do not support the elite dominance model of Renfrew (1987 ; 1991).

And here a pca plot with Turkmens (Seljuks), Anatolian Greeks and Armenians, Kurds and Ancient Anatolians

Science>An underage Byzaboo that knows nothing about genetics

Now shoo before i kick your skull in just as how we kicked your skulls in at Manzikert.

Attached: pca2.png (1376x739, 38K)

That map just proves the point.

>teaching Byzaboos genetics

a pain in the ass.

mass byzaboo genocide when?

Attached: pca2.png (1376x739, 49K)

They are very close to medieval Anatolians, the ones that were actually assimilated.

They're also close to Turkmens of Turkmenistan too. What does that prove?

I'm not saying Turks are pure people. But saying that Turks are actually ancient Byzantines is bollocks.

The map is only showing ancient Anatolians, the medieval ones are much closer to them genetically.

Greek_Cappadocia samples are taken from modern Anatolian Greeks that live in Greece.

Also if anything Turks from Northeastern Anatolia are the only Turks that close to Greeks and Armenians because they're the only assimilated Anatolians here.

oghuzturksdna.blogspot.com.tr/2018/02/the-genetic-structure-of-anatolia-from_21.html

Attached: East_Eurasian.png (1600x866, 545K)

>I am not a greek mutt okay look at my shitty turk studies, it prove that i have zero balkanigger blood in my vein. I don't even look like greek...
Sure thing roach.

you’ve been BTFO so many times why do you keep coming back?

>shitty turk studies

>2 are conducted by non turks

cry me a river

I have never lost an argument with a byzaboo before.

Attached: 123.png (1600x1440, 515K)

>denial

> My studies are totaly neutral, nothing to do with turkish fond
Whatever help you sleep at night mutt.

Science>A Byzaboo on Veeky Forums

History>A Byzaboo on Veeky Forums

Ottomans>Byzantines

Where are the credentials in these sources user, the only thing i see are the autistic screaming of a t*rkish chauvinist bigot, you are the kind of people that deserve range-ban the most.

I posted the studies' sources. Both studies that are conducted by actual scientists and studies conducted by people interested in genetics.

>you are the kind of people that deserve range-ban the most.

Don't call Ottomans "Muslim Peasantines" then. It's an insult to my ancestors. Ottomans were culturaly and militarily resembled Seljuks and Iranian empires more than they did Peasantines.

Ottomans culturally and militarily resembles Seljuks and Iranic Empires*

>I posted the studies' sources. Both studies that are conducted by actual scientists and studies conducted by people interested in genetics

All the sources that you have posted with citation are turkish related user, thus not credible.

>Don't call Ottomans "Muslim Peasantines" then. It's an insult to MUH ancestors. Ottomans were culturaly and militarily resembled Seljuks and Iranian empires more than they did Peasantines

t.Average t*roach retard

>All the sources that you have posted with citation are turkish related user, thus not credible.

first study is conducted by

Marc Haber
Massimo Mezzavilla
Yali Xue
David Comas
Paolo Gasparini
Pierre
Zalloua
Chris Tyler-Smith

no Turks

>t.Average t*roach retard

1 Turk can destroy 5000 byzaboos at once.

Your sources say something different from what say(like any other time you go berserk in a thread), I checked, the ‘turkish elite with little mixture’ model is wrong, the ‘complete replacement’ model is wrong, yes there was significant admixture but also yes for the most part it is still the native population. From your postings it appears like you don’t read your own sources

Also what kind of "this study is conducted by Turks hence not realiable" argument is this? It's published on NCBI and BMC.

from what you say*

>I checked, the ‘turkish elite with little mixture’ model is wrong, the ‘complete replacement’ model is wrong

I have always said: Modern Turks are a mix of Anatolian (not Greeks they were just larpers) and Turkmen Seljuk peoples.

But Byzaboos here are pushing their meme hypothesises like how we're actually muslim peasantines (may allah forgive me for mentioning peasantines). As an anti-byzaboo Turk this triggers me. Because this is genetically wrong and calling Anatolians Byzantines is also plain cruel. Anatolians suffered a lot under Byzantine yoke they lost their original culture and language because of Byzantine oppression that lasted for centuries

> Byzaboo, My mutt ass is on fire!
This level of projection is out of control, i'm not even a byzaboo and i actually like real turkish people history. I'm sorry you have to Larp every single day.

>4328494
>Byzaboo screeching

The admixture model is what most agree upon, but you frame it like everyone thinks it were just turkish elites because byzanbooism. Probably for shitposting purposes.
The only reason why there is so much admixture is because how cruel the seljuks were to the native population, often uprooting it and destroying the society’s cohesiveness, with every warlord doing their bidding. This pretty much destroyed the previous society and forced a new one to emerge. If the turks ruled more tolerantly like the mongols this would not have happened.

Alright let us see your "sources":
1)
Just a pic with no reference and with no reliable credentials.
2)
a)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
The "Scientists" :
Can Alkan, Pinar Kavak, Mehmet Somel, Omer Gokcumen, Serkan Ugurlu, Ceren Saygi, Elif Dal, Kuyas Bugra, Tunga Güngör, S Cenk Sahinalp, Nesrin Özören,corresponding author and Cemalettin Bekpen

Not related with Turkey and Turks at all.

b)
etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf

A Turkish source

3)
Again the same picture with no reliable credentials supported by our Turkish chauvinist bigot.

4)
oghuzturksdna.blogspot.com.tr/2018/02/the-genetic-structure-of-anatolia-from_21.html

A Turkish blogspot site, typical of nationalist myths and chauvinism.

Now (5) the "non-turkish source" :

"Genetic evidence for an origin of the Armenians from Bronze Age mixing of multiple
populations "

A focus on genetic studies on the Armenian populations by:

The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, Hinxton, Cambs.
CB10 1SA, United Kingdom.
2
Institute for Maternal and Child Health -IRCCS “Burlo Garofolo” - Trieste, University of
Trieste, Italy.
3
Institut de Biologia Evolutiva (CSIC–UPF), Departament de Ciències de la Salut i de la
Vida, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain
4
The Lebanese American University, Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon
*Corresponding author: Chris Tyler-Smith, The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Wellcome
Trust Genome Campus, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, CB10 1SA, United Kingdom. Phone:
+44(1223)-834244. Fax: +44(1223)-494919. E-mail: [email protected]

which could have obviously dubious or controversial results.

>Because this is genetically wrong and calling Anatolians Byzantines is also plain cruel. Anatolians suffered a lot under Byzantine yoke they lost their original culture and language because of Byzantine oppression that lasted for centuries

This is what the average chauvinist Turkish moron actually believes, the absolute state of the Turks.

>Muh Turks

not an argument. it's published on NCBI and BMC genom.

>Just a pic with no reference and with no reliable credentials.

it's Gedmatch results. It used to be on wiki.

>A Turkish blogspot site, typical of nationalist myths and chauvinism.

not an argument. a kurd is in charge of that blog actually.

>which could have obviously dubious or controversial results.

translation: MY BYZABOO ASS IS ON FIREEEEEE

It's a study you moron, a study published in an article, there are dozens of papers like that published in university cycles.

If you don't accept scientific studies then look at personal genetic results of Turks

theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?226479-Turkish-GEDmatch-results-(Central-Anatolian)

theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223578-GEDmatch-results-of-a-Turk-from-South-Eastern-Anatolia

theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

results look like

13 56% East_Sicilian + 44% Afghan_Turkmen @ 6.84
14 52.8% Nogay + 47.2% East_Sicilian @ 6.85
15 54% South_Italian + 46% Afghan_Turkmen @ 7.04

bye bye byzaboos.

There and it is a fucking argument judging by Turkey's interference in other public Academia topics like for example the Armenian Genocide.

>it's Gedmatch results. It used to be on wiki.

Not fucking citation or the credibility of it, also Wikipedia is not a source.

>not an argument. a kurd is in charge of that blog actually.

It is a fucking argument concerning the credibility and reliability of a source and how it is backed academically, i do not care for a Kurd and his larping hobbies.

>translation: MY BYZABOO ASS IS ON FIREEEEEE

The paper you posted is concerned primarily with Armenian populations, and papers on these topics can always be controversial, everything can be debunked in science.

Again a fucking forum, your credibility is flat-earth theory level.

>Again a fucking forum
Personal genetic results posted on a forum. One of them even has kitnumber. Check it on GEDmatch

>Not fucking citation or the credibility of it, also Wikipedia is not a source.
gedmatch is its source

>It is a fucking argument concerning the credibility and reliability of a source and how it is backed academically, i do not care for a Kurd and his larping hobbies.

stop crying byzaboo

>The paper you posted is concerned primarily with Armenian populations, and papers on these topics can always be controversial, everything can be debunked in science.

and it compares Armenians to Middle Easterners such as Turks and Arabs.
See fellow Turks, these are the people that used to call you "ur assimilated grik" in your threads and were doggedly against your heritage. They claimed 1-2 years ago that science supports their meme claims. But we see that they're just butthurt byzaboos disconnected from reality.

You are literary a retard so there is no point dealing with you, here have some nuisance, there are tons of videos like her, now have a good nights sleep:

youtube.com/watch?v=86RLzOPOB-0

And some more, just for the heck of it:

youtube.com/watch?v=k9sCBt4F2ZE
youtube.com/watch?v=0D2z98wASLE
youtube.com/watch?v=HcMUYVXGFhk
youtube.com/watch?v=Rm5rl-Fnb4Q

>now resorts to posting memeheritage ersults

awesome.

But first of all, i must mention she's from Macedonia. Hence not Turkish.

Attached: Queen of Fyrom.jpg (1450x693, 121K)

Second, in your videos, the Turks come up as a mixture between West Asian and Central Asian with some Greek.

West Asian samples are based on Iranians

Central Asians are based on Kazakhs

and as far as i know neither Iranians nor Kazakhs are Byzantine.

you got cucked again.

Attached: 423342234234.png (1614x1352, 569K)

Turk from Macedonia, she said it herself, there are others as well you obviously missed.

>now resorts to posting memeheritage ersults

That's what you have being doing all this time now, meme sourcing, good night Mehmed.
Have your dreams under Erdogan.

>got cucked again
30% Greek
>West Asian
Middle-east can mean Arab,Kurd,Laz (Georgian), Armenian and so on sorry to ruin your dream.

and Kazakhs are one of the most Mongoloid influenced Turkics. Turks descend from Turkmens. Turkmens are closer to Middle Easterners and Tajiks than to Kazakhs and Mongolians.

if a Turk scores 14% C. Asian along with West Asian which is based on Turks and Persians what does that mean?

>get cucked

>escape

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

also Turks from Balkans are not same as Anatolian Turks. This is already a known fact. They're Anatolian Turks that mixed with Bulgarians and Balkan Slavs. Might as well post Turks to compare them to Turkmens and say "Look Turkmens, you're assimilated X not Turkic!"

Attached: Central Asians.png (2067x1317, 891K)

>30% Greek

Greeks are mostly assimilated Middle Easterners with some Mediterranean heritage. Just like Anatolians but not the same.

Pic related a Greek's results.

Attached: rapebaby.png (1161x740, 559K)

and West Asian is based on Persians and Turks.

Attached: Persian.png (1786x627, 269K)

>Greeks are mostly assimilated Middle Easterners with some Mediterranean heritage

Posts a DNA result with a guy being 96% European (56.6 Greek, 38.0 Italian, 1.4 Iberian) and brags his racially purity nonetheless, ok turk we believe you, you are the master race, go sleep now.

>West Asian is based on Persians and Turks
Ignores Arab,Kurd,Laz (Georgian), Armenians that live in the same region, good luck retard.

>Greek
>European

theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225237-4-Anatolian-Greeks-gedmatch-results

1 87.4% Armenian ( ) + 12.6% Sardinian ( ) @ 2.29
2 85.8% Armenian_Yerevan ( ) + 14.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 3.08

Attached: greek.png (1920x1080, 1.38M)

there's already a "middle east" component for those populations

He is Pontic-Greek, you obviously missed that,
56% European and 26%Caucasus from Armenian,Georgian,Middle-Eastern heritage and so on.
Still probably less inbred like you turkish-racially-pure-kun.

Covers the same area retard,look at the map.

What's the implication here, that the muslims wouldn't have conquered them? Newsflash user, muslims fucked each other over all the fucking time. The great early success of the crusades was mostly due to muslims giving precedence to their petty squabbles over the large organized army of zealots knocking at their door.

More like turk complacence and the Fatimids wrongly thinking the Crusaders were allies.

complacency*

You have no source. That never happened. Only butthurt greeks believe turks killed %80 of anatolian population.(which they were not capable of btw!) anatolian seljuks started as bunch of generals that were given the territory they comquered, they taxed them and assimilated them instead. Which is seen %99 of that time when there is a conquest. That is why in early turkic comquest periods there were so many language, culture, architecture fuckery, we can flnd gravestones with seljuk turkish written in greek alphabets for example.
It is often a bad idea to kill the manpower that will give you tax.
We see this happen in japan when east asians interacted with ainu, we see this with alexander and romans at the places they conquered, we see this with nearly all islamic comquests, we see this in crusader kingdoms. We see this in britbong india.
Just keep in mind that ww2 was more devestating populatin wise than any other war in history.
And plauge was way worse than that.
People who died from infections probably more than doubled the people who died in wars during that time.

Tldr you are overestimating the amount that died in that period.

But sure if instead of fighting each other, byzantiums and turks were to join forces by either of them converting to the others religion, history would be very very different. They did both tried ro convert eachother but failed. Now i am wondering how different the history would be with muslim byzantium or christian ottoman...

>anatolian seljuks started as bunch of generals that were given the territory they comquered, they taxed them and assimilated them instead

ahem
etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12607764/index.pdf

>Moreover, results pointed out that language in Anatolia might not have been replaced by the elites, but by a large group of people. Therefore, it can be concluded that the observations do not support the elite dominance model of Renfrew (1987 ; 1991).

Will you retarded underages stop shitposting already?

Section 1.2 from the souece you gave. It was too long to put Veeky Forums gave an error
This was from your source. You either think that %30 is higher than %70 or you cannot read.
Calm down your autiatic rage dude. PEOPLE EVERYWHERE MIXED, modern turkish is as close to armenians and greeks to central asian turks if not more depending on the region.
Also the way you “measure” genetics is also a big factor. If you only look only at haplogroups, Ainus of northern japan's closest relative is the primitive tribe of sentinel island. However it is an undiaputed fact that modern japanese is a mixture between yaoi and jomon(ainus ancestors). However you wont see that relation if you nitpick your studies for your ideology. Again. You cannot seriously think cebtral asian turks replaced all the anatolian population. Hell the skeletons in catalhoyuk's closest relatives were in a modern village near it! It is very rare that a population is completely replaced without heavy mixing. I think north america is the only example of it in human history.

Tl Dr DONT NITPICK YOUR SOURCES, GENETICS ARE MORE COMPLICATED THAN TOO THINK AND STOP YOUR IDEOLOGY FROM DECIDING FOR YOU
Also i am not underage, underage isnt even an insult and you seem to be the immature one here
Also i doubt you read 170 pages of that research

Maybe if Turks had become Christian Central Asia wouldn’t be an impoverished backwater today

Central Asia was doomed to become that after the decline of the silk road. Kazachstan is doing alright though.

If they did would they really have still been the same? Wouldn’t they have sacrificed their identity? Their very selves?

Attached: D17CCBAF-5AD9-4EBF-9D91-32D0CD0F3C31.jpg (1024x1024, 195K)

bump

itt: armchair byzaboo geneticists got wrecked by a Turk

t. turk brown shitskin

t. urk

t. retarded t*rklet
The population of Byzantium rebounded to over 10 million during the reign of John the good.
>source
W. Treadgold, A History of the Byzantine State and Society

Not really. They were a Persianized Turkish dynasty. Ironically though because of them the sons of Trojans are finally freed from the Greek oppressors, after more than thousand years of occupation.

Guys what's stronger one turkish shitposter or 10 /pol/niggers?
To me it seems the turk wins.

/pol/ never wins on Veeky Forums

Does /pol/ ever win in general?

when they claim victory for something they didn’t do.

>mfw i agree more with a turk than a greek

the ancient greeks themselves said that anatolians are barbarians, why do you bother including them into our people?

I don’t, I do however include them under the byzantines as Anatolia was more of a backbone to the empire than Greece proper. The fate of the empire often hinged on the anatolians.

so if you included non Greeks does that mean the Byzantines aren't Greeks?

so if you include non Greeks does that mean the Byzantines aren't Greeks?

They’re not ancient Greeks or modern Greeks, they are Byzantine Greeks. Largely consisting of a partially hellenized population.

Yes.

Would you consider the Ottomans the inheritors of Pontus(which BTFO’d the Greeks)?

Attached: 4A511C76-E320-4706-BC1E-67737185FB58.jpg (718x600, 89K)

The organization known in German as Der gruppen die Einsatz, was of purely an anti partisan persuasion.

They almost won all the time, but the jews stabbed them in the back every time too.

>muhhh genetics
>muhhh 20th century ideology
>muhhh racial makeup
You need to realize that all of that didn't actually matter back then, and to this day it still doesn't.
What matters is your genetic makeup being suitable to your environment (that's why islanders are generally darker and mountainpeople are paler, but nobody gives a shit once they know the other's background) and the religion/culture/language you follow, that's what defines an ethnicity nowadays. Getting assblasted about a few haplogroups is just about the most autistic and incorrect thing you can do when it comes to actual historical analysis.

maybe but haplo autism will never go away

BEEzantium

>Ottomans ruined by a Greek rapebaby

r/Byzantium unironically got btfo by Blacked Turk