Waco Siege

Could I get a cliffnotes on this for a non-American?

Summary: Religious group living together, ATF shows up because reports they have auto rifles, shootout happens, ATF calls in the FBI, FBI negotiators get to an agreement, tactical team charges in with tear gas (illegal at the time btw), building burns, the majority of people in the building die

They also completely cleared the ruins and destroyed all physical evidence.
Really gets the noggin joggin.

Hey, OP here, they DID clear the ruins, all the evidence is gone as well. From what I've read so far nobody ever really was investigated. Fun Fact: there is a new group of branch davidians called "The Branch" guess what they do! Pack school lunches and do charity work, wow, such a strange turn

Friendly reminder Sam Hyde is devoid of talent.

What Nick Mullen sees in him is beyond me

Considering they found full auto guns and some of the girls said they got diddled and this shows up on Wikipedia and on any Google search of the topic, I fear you may be the retard friendo

The site was eventually bulldozed but only after being scoured for evidence.

For example they found 48 automatic weapons.

nytimes.com/1994/01/15/us/cult-had-illegal-arms-expert-says.html

I know it's hard to imagine because of "muh culture wars" but it's possible a cult that, by their own admission, forbade men from fucking their wives, but let the leader fuck all the women, including teens, and thought the leader was a prophet, and stockpiled over a hundred assault weapons including illegal automatic ones, just maybe, maybe, might have been the kind of group that opens fire on law enforcement...

A sect of the Seventh Day Adventists broke off.
David Koresh molded this branch into a cult.
ATF suspected they were stockpiling illegal weapons.
Koresh offered to let the ATF inspect their paperwork but the ATF declined.
ATF obtained search and arrest warrants.
ATF claimed Koresh was running a meth lab - they weren't.
Branch Davidians learned about the raid - Koresh said he intended to talk with the ATF.
ATF decided to go through with the raid anyway as planned.

What happens next is up for debate.
>ATF says Branch Davidians shot first
>Branch Davidians say ATF shot first

Branch Davidians called emergency services within a minute of the shooting beginning to ask them to stop shooting.
2 hours of shooting went by.
Local sheriff called a ceasefire - though the ATF readily admitted they were for the ceasefire cause they were running low on ammo.
Branch Davidians let the ATF get the dead/wounded.
6 hours later ATF breaks the ceasefire.

FBI comes in now.
FBI cuts all Branch Davidian contact to outside world.
Some negotiation happens and the Davidians let some children out.
FBI let Branch Davidians make a video but decided not to release it to the public because it would garner them sympathy.
FBI started fucking with them more.
FBI starts driving Bradleys and M728s around, playing music/slaughterhouse sounds all through the night.
FBI cut all water and power.
Koresh ordered more Davidians to leave - they did and were arrested.
Janet Reno and Clinton okay'd the siege.
FBI decides to blow holes in the wall and pump in tear gas.
Sometime FBI fire pyrotechnic rounds despite instructions not to.
Fires started and everyone remaining died.

A month later the site was bulldozed destroying any remaining evidence.

That and Ruby ridge were such abject failures in response

OP here again, and yes, although I do know I put in the original post that they were assault a church, I meant that to be as a loose title. I do understand that the guns were found, yes, but my point was there was no need to use tear gas on civilians (which was basically an act of war). Yes, David Koresh was a bad human being, but there is an argument for his side of the story. YES there were girls who were sexually assaulted, however, they were 14 and under Texas state at the time, it was legal as long as their parents consented. This topic is a tough one and I am happy to read the reactions above and look forward to further responses.

As for the automatic rifles, fun fact, it was completely legal to do such a thing in Texas using a permit just like one of the posters said before, and they had such a permit, the ATF instead sent in what was pretty much a spy to inspect the paperwork, but he was told to forget those orders and to just find the guns

This

They timed the raid to occur during the middle of a church service when the building would be full of people rather than simply having the local sheriffs pick up Koresh when he was in town and having ATF raid the building in the middle of the night (an ideal time for a raid anyway) when few, if any people would be around.

Why do you Waco faggots never mention the fact that the cultists were the ones who started the fire? I guess that doesn't help your agreement of "muh ebil government"

Innocent people burned alive by savage cops. What else is new.
What's up, American federal police!

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Good refutation cuck. I guess all those independent arson investigators who had everything to gain from blaming the US government are wrong. :^)

>who had everything to gain from blaming the US government
I realize you're a cop but your tactics fall especially flat when you start spouting this gas huffing retard nonsense.

Wew weee you really are a retard. Mindless insults with attempt at refutation. But what else do you expect from a /pol/ nigger?

DEATH TO THE ATF

Trips of truth.

/pol/niggers are a blight on this world

>fucking 12 year olds is okay
gtfo muhammad, stop shitting up our board

He sowed the wind

This leaves the following questions:

Why did the Feds even use incendiaries (which they did on record - it just failed to penetrate)?
Why did they choose to breach the way they did (given that it damaged the structure in such a way that blocked several exits)?
Why did they choose to use CS gas when it was banned for wartime use months before the raid and was known to be capable of hazardous doses in enclosed areas?
Why would they use CS gas if they had any worry of the cult initiating a fire given knowledge that it would go up in flame if placed in an enclosed area?

>The site was eventually bulldozed but only after being scoured for evidence.
lol

"Cultists" might have started the fire, but in their eyes this was a biblical event, and the ATF and FBI were there to kill them. Seeing as there was no "sign from god" as Koresh said, they realized this was only going to end one way seeing as how the feds were treating them, so they decided to die by their own hand. Although it is generally accepted that they started the fire, there was a strange event to support it was either an accident and that they wanted the FBI to put it out, or that the feds did it themselves. During the fire, Koresh's secretary ran out with a floppy disk. The contents? The first chapter of the book David would release and then come out. Timing on the whole situation is off, not to mention the FBI admits that they blocked fire trucks from entering the area, saying they had it under control. Still, this is getting fun, lets keep it going.

>wikipedia is a reliable source

Lies

/thread

God Bless McVeigh

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If you have any problem with the article you should post edits with sources

>FBI admitting it themselves is a reliable source
>eyewitness accounts are a reliable source

No clue how you survive day to day. Just none.

Good point. We need a new word that means "cult of a cult".

Oh boy, r/politics spewing their regurgitated bullshit until the one autistic anti-government guy comes in and drops several pages worth of facts and shuts them up.

Never gets old, like war crime denial threads.

cucult?

Fuck off chapo fag

Didn't the Confederacy lose the only war they ever fought?

Investigations determined that the Davidians set the fire. Therefore the Feds only shot six people who were armed and also fired at them. In other words they did nothing wrong.

Lol I tried to get into mde, it just isn't funny. Just autistic sperging

McVeigh continues our work.

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This

DO IT AGAIN RAGING RENO

>oh no poor children are molested
>let burn them alive
Seriously man.

>Tear gas is essentially an act of war

No, not even close. If it's used against the manufacturer instructions, such as inside a room or building or near flammable objects they can be dangerous and that would have legal and administrative consequences towards the user, but that in no.way constitutes an act of war, since that is only applyable between nations, not a fucking sect.

muh sovereign citizen tho

They're still using CS Gas, most recent example was the Dorner standoff in LA. Cops threw smoke then it 'accidentally' ignited, oops sorry guys we just roasted a cop killer alive.

Originally, church was what the gathering of people was called, not the building.

Why would Janet Reno and the ATF and FBI intentionally murder 80 people or however many died there? They completely fucked it up, but it's not like they just decided to go and assault the Davidians. They had reasonable suspicion they were engaging in illegal activity.

But hey, why not let apocalyptic cults with fully autos and pedophile leaders just do what they want right?

gassing our own citizens isn't war your honor cut me some slack :^)

It's almost like giving civilian police weapons that every military on earth is barred from using might not be such a good idea

>it's not like they just decided to go and assault the Davidians
They literally avoided grabbing Koresh when he went into town and decided to siege instead.
>Koresh is a pedo, guys!! t-think of the CHILDREN!
>proceeds to burn the kids alive and bulldoze the crime scene
Yeah, okay, bud.

I didn't say they handled perfectly ass lord, and yeah they should have grabbed Koresh on his morning jog. I'm simply saying these things don't happen in a vacuum. Koresh attracted the attention of the gov with his insanity and stockpiling of guns.

People almost universally fall into two categories.
>DAVID KORESH WAS A GOOD NON-MOLESTY BOY, HE DIDNU NUFFIN
or
>ATF = ATTACKING TARD FUNDAMENTALISTS, DO IT AGAIN BOMBER RENO

I think the only objective outlook is that they were both just fucking deplorable.
I think Koresh was a demented fuck who deserved what he got if even 1/10th of the bad stuff is true. But the ATF fucked up colossally by burning women and children and got a black eye from which it still hasn't recovered. This is a good thing IMO, since it means that government overreach has been checked. They've seen what can happen when you go too hard on soft targets.
See: the rancher debacle in the news recently. Things have gotten better for federal standoffs.

But McVeigh's so-called retribution is bullshit also, the man blew up a fucking daycare. Can't see how any rightard can condone murdering children. If McVeigh wanted justice for Ruby Ridge he should have killed Horiuchi himself instead of just handing cards with Lou's address, like a coward.

>Koresh was banging 12 year olds
Was there any proof at all from a non-biased source?

There's got to be some legal reason they didn't just grab him off the street. You can't just arrest someone randomly on suspicion alone - no matter how solid that suspicion is. The FBI's case would be thrown in the trash if they pulled that

For the fiftieth time, the ATF didn't start the fire, the cultists did. The ATF screwed up by trying to get a doomsday cult to surrender by force.

>telling the police you were molested doesn't count because you're biased

t. FBI

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Guys... What if like, a nine month pregnant Anne Frank mysteriously teleported into the Mt. Carmel Center during the early hours of the Waco Siege?

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We're never going to know the truth of this claim because the site was bulldozed very quickly after the siege was over. Funny thing that.

Watch the TV show version of this (it may be available online).

>*bulldozes the crime scene*
Who was in the wrong here?

>Local American """"History""""

Waco is a good show, might have gotten something wrong along the way but it is still amazing

I agree with you 100%. While I come off as being majorly Branch Davidian, I think that both sides did some things that could have been avoided. Things HAVE gotten better and if we can improve our own functionality after such a disaster then that's a good thing. As for McVeigh, I cannot condone the actions of a mass murderer, if you want an example of the right thing to do look at (may whatever merciful god there is forgive me for saying this name) Alex Jones. Alex Jones heavily disagreed with how the siege was handled and you know what he did? He did fundraising so they could build a new church, which they have. McVeigh took everything in the wrong way, and went down a dark path that cannot be redeemed.

I thought they had an undercover FBI in the compound that witnessed them with automatic weapons?

Also, what about the newspaper articles that accused him of sexual assault of minors? Would that hold in court, just curious.

Has Alex Jones always been crazy or did he lose his mind after the Bohemian Grove incident?

Alex Jones was actually an alright guy in his younger years, he's unstable now after some events happened, most notably 9/11.

Possession of an automatic firearm is not inherently illegal. Especially if one possesses an FFL or the appropriate tax stamps. Now the often argument falls upon whether or not they were using m16 Sears to be combined with ar15 lowers. This would be illegal except for two things:

The branch Davidians possesses a FFL and ran a gun store out of the compound called the mag bag.

And two, you would have to prove ill intent given that they had a FFL. Ie. That the FFL holder was not intending to sell them to government officers for the purpose of their duties nor that he possessed them for personal use such as luxury/runnimg a gun range.

Korean swore the paperwork was done legally. He invited the ATF in to inspect both the guns and the papers. They refused. They also conveniently staged the siege while the ATF holder was out of state selling guns at a gun show.

From federal agents to religious wingnuts, nothing of value was lost.

I really don't understand how someone can ignore how shitty David was. The ATF ended up having the blood of children on their hands, you don't need to make him a dindu to make your case.

>feds say they did nothing wrong
>feds did nothing wrong

General Lee would've shook hands with McVeigh

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What about the articles in the local paper accusing him of molestation? Would that be enough to get at least a search warrant?

>gets search warrant
>burns down compound instead of searching it

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>the children never burned
>Anne, Peter, and David helped them escape through the portal
>David knew he couldn't join the children
>they expected him in the wreckage
>With a firm handshake, Koresh saw off van Piels
>the portal closes as Koresh looks in, the burning building tumbling down around him
>Anne becomes a mother to all of them

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Do they sell replicas of that shirt?

Uhh, yes we do. The site was bulldozed months after the fire and after independent arson investigators all concluded that the cultists started the fire.

My only concern/disappointment was why it took the Feds so long to actually storm the compound. Koresh knew this was going to happen sooner or later (or should have). Precedent had been set. The police helicopter bombing of the Philadelphia HQ of the MOVE activist group. So, yeah, Koresh got what he wanted. Totally moral result.

Edgy.

Beautiful

Did the people in the "Waco Compound" actually live there or were they just there for the church service?

>just autistic sperging

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The problem with the molestation charges comes with how they were gained. As per the report sent to the Deputy Attorney General:

Evidence #1 was an ATF affidavit containing hearsay an ATF agent gained from a former cult member

Evidence #2 was notes from an interview a CPS made when talking to a girl who's family was kicked out of the cult

Evidence #3 was hearsay from a former cult member

Evidence #4 was hearsay from a former cult member (related to evidence 3 member)

Evidence #5 is interesting - it was from the shrink who interviewed the kids when they were released - he said from what he gained, none of the kids were abused but may have been present when sexual things were talked about

Evidence #6 was from the FBI on the phone with a branch davidian - the FBI try to pressure the davidian into saying he was fucking 12 yr olds, but the davidian believed the youngest he fucked was a 14 yr old

Evidence #7 was from a psychiatrist and he said that there was no way to resolve the situation at all and that Koresh was fucking kids - this is the only psychiatrist out of 8 who were consulted that suggested Koresh was fucking kids.

The conclusion at the end of the report is that there was no direct evidence establishing sexual abuse allegations, however it noted that there were circumstantial indications and the children were in a deteriorating living environment and the possibility of abuse would increase as the siege continued.

The vast majority of the evidence came from former cult members - the same members that false claimed Koresh had machine guns, .50 cal or larger weapons etc.

So realistically, what it would at least get is a warrant for Koresh, and the ability to allow CPS into the compound to do their own investigation. However that course of action was chosen against and a siege was carried out instead.

Watching Delta Force officers tear ATF a new one in front of a Congressional hearing for their shitty planning never gets old.

youtube.com/watch?v=aW82k_9mba4

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Except Koresh literally dindu nuffin

This

They lived there. The ranch had been converted to include appartments etc.

I see. So the ATF was going to run into at least some resistance (be it armed or just non-compliant residents) when they showed up with a warrant to search the property regardless of whether or not they had the sheriffs detain Koresh while he was in town?

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That's presumptuous, especially considering at the time they had invited ATF in to the compound in regards to various claims such as a meth lab/illegal weapons. Furthermore, considering the ceasefire during the siege, the Branch Davidians also showed considerable empathy, given that after the ceasefire was called they allowed the ATF to remove the dead and wounded from inside the compound and its surrounding grounds despite having the advantage of ammunition and fortification. Given the cults reputation with nearby locals, it would be rather out of character for them for them to be non-compliant with a search warrant.

>Have never heard of this because lmfao NA history, it's probably some cowboys and indians shit or some 'remember the alamo yeehaw' stupidity
>Read up on Waco
>and Ruby Ridge
>and OKC
>literally what if a pack of rabid christian apocalyptic fetishists who inbreed by raping their own indoctrinated kids created their own community out in bumfuck nowhere and then armed themselves to the goddamn nines with [according to the court record] ammunition and supplies sufficient to hold out for a huge amount of time as well as explosives and .50 Calibre rifles that can punch through fucking everything so when the government comes to uphold the rule of law which is supposed to apply to everyone by trying to arrest some of them on charges of raping they are forced to send a lot of police which makes the cultists chimp out and start a gunfight ensues that ends up in a 2-month long siege that kills 76, injures more, makes employ of a fucking Abrams battle tank and helicopters, costs tens of millions and ends with them burning their own compound down, an act that in itself involves assisting in the mercy killings of women and children to prevent an agonizing death by burning, and after which some sociopathic fuckwit decides that the gubbermin was in the wrong because of this and another event (where someone AGAIN decided to resist a lawful arrest on gun charges with assault rifles for reasons that are unclear and inadequate) detonates a car bomb in the middle of a major city to get revenge for MUH LIBERTEE but only succeeds in killing shitloads of civilians
>mfw all of this

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

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