One of Jesus' greatest claims to fame among his early followers was his role as an exorcist. In the bible...

One of Jesus' greatest claims to fame among his early followers was his role as an exorcist. In the bible, he casts out many demons from people and even communicates with demons.

So what this means is that christians must believe in demons. Christians, how do you defend this belief?

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling
youtube.com/results?search_query=demon exorcism
cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00792R000300390001-2.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=SnLj8DMqaC8
youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

If heaven exists so does hell

>taking it literally

Come on man, that's the biggest amateur mistake you can make when reading the Bible.

Then why take the resurrection literally?

who says you need to?

Christians must believe in demons and other spiritual beings. Acknowledging they exist which is not the same as worshiping them.
Why wouldn't you take Jesus's ministry literally. True christians believe in talking snake, donkeys and trees. At least exorcism is something we can somehow apreciate in present days.

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Why the fuck when I save this webm the saturation or whatever gets all fucked up.

Because demons are real. I don’t see how that is so hard to understand.

Are there still people on this forsaken mote of dust who do not believe in daemons, angels, and goblins?

Who is this semen demon ?

Who feels it a necessary thing to defend the truth?

Actually, only unbelieving fools take nothing in the bible literally.

>talking snake, donkeys and trees

The devil, the gift of language given to one particular donkey, and what?

I believe it is a monkey of some sort. To each his own.

Someone has to go back to the catechism.

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Mental Defects.
Angels and Demons represent different aspects of the mind.

Dear Lord, it is a bush in the bible, the burning bush in vox popularis, and did not talk.

God talked.

They are both spirit beings; 1/3 of them fell from grace and are under the devil's authority, and 2/3 of them did not, and retained their first estate.

You deal with these entities as "aspects of your mind" because the fallen ones have absolutely no compunction against invading your mind and controlling your thoughts.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince idiots that he does not exist.

>So what this means is that christians must believe in demons.
Yes.
>Christians, how do you defend this belief?
Beliefs are not subject of verification unless you're an autistic scholastic.
I'm atheist btw.

Is an idiot and so are "muh context and not taking it literally" christians. Of course demons exist, and there's more of them than you'd think.

Non Christian here, what´s wrong with it?

As stated before, they are different aspects of the mind.
How you view them is up to you, that is, whether they seem to manifest in physical, and,
the possibility of others sharing the delusion,
depending on their mental abilities.
Your handlers, who control you with media, know much more about this-
consider the symbolism, pic related.

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i certainly believe in that semen demon

...and, furthermore, the fallen 1/3 still is symbolic of the mind, probably Ego.
Literal Retard.

To you, they are aspects of your mind, because you do not know these entities actually exist.

You are in for a very rude awakening when you finally and for all eternity realize that the universe does not conform itself to your pitiful imagination.

Yes, you are a literal retard, thinking that your opinion shapes reality.

That is what the retarded do, and that is how we treat them.

Go watch your scary shows, Retarded Literal Word Beliebing Boomer.
The Bible is symbolic.

Aexandra Daddario

Serious question here;
If all that an individual perceives is based solely on their sensory input, and given that each individual is alone in their own thoughts and perceptions, then isn't the reality that an individual perceives solely their own?
Aside from objective truth and the physical laws of nature as we understand them, could that not leave open the interpretation that "reality" exists only in the eye of the beholder, and is therefore malleable to a certain extent?

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Ya, that particular user is not going to get that.
He's a screechy true believer.
It would actually be dangerous to him if any of this creeps into his fully indoctrinated mind.
Years of re-evaluation and realization of a life nearly wasted would probably destroy him if he is at any advanced age.

Could I get a quick RunDown...

>If all that an individual perceives is based solely on their sensory input
It's not though. Perception is based on the sensory input as interpreted by the brain. There's an extra step where flaws can and do occur.
>then isn't the reality that an individual perceives solely their own?
You're introducing an undefined term: "reality", in your conclusion. If anything, all you can conclude here is that your perceptions are your own.
The rest of the argument is based on this flaw in reasoning and therefor can be disregarded.

Basically, what you're saying is: Sensory input -> Perception -> Reality

But where does the sensory input come from?
This is what I define as reality, the source of our sensory input.
So it should be: Reality -> Sensory input -> Interpretation -> Perception

If you're okay with believing in the existence of God and that a random Jewish peasant was God's son imbued with miraculous powers, why not believe in demons too?

If you don't, then you aren't Christian.

All abrahamics do. Djinns, daimons, whatever. Skipped theology class?

Protestants love to talk about demons for some reason. Everyone is possessed according to them.

Catholics seem to shy away from that, the Church almost never sanctions an exorcism and tell people to get their head examined instead. I'm not sure, but I think Catholic dogma is that while the devil and hell exist, they're powerless to influence humanity thanks to Jesus' Sacrifice.

Orthodox Church is weird, apparently exorcism is a common sacrament like Communion and is seen as no big deal.

jebus those eyes are piercing

>Orthodox Church is weird, apparently exorcism is a common sacrament like Communion and is seen as no big deal.
That's the folk religion creeping in.

That doesn't follow mate. Just because one claim is true doesn't mean that every other connected claims are.
For instance, just because Chuck Norris is real doesn't mean that onions cry when he cuts them.
Also, just because Jesus was real doesn't mean that heaven is.

>Christians, how do you defend this belief?
What the heck is that even supposed to mean. Yes, demons exist, what's there to defend? Is the fact that demons exist supposed to act as some kind of moral quandruaary for Christians?

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>Muh metaphors checkmate Christians!

It's both. Jesus both metaphorically cast out demons, and cured them of their "demons." Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead, and "back from the dead." He returned from death and "returned from death." Jesus taught that suffering was of this world, and so are our demons and deaths. They hold power because we give them power, they are real because we make them real.

>Catholic dogma is that while the devil and hell exist, they're powerless to influence humanity thanks to Jesus' Sacrifice
No, it just requires proof it isn't an illness or addiction, which it almost always is

It's the fact that such an additinalonal unproven concept as demons which in general is viewed as rather silly is connected to the religion. As such it's kinda like the talking donkey.

Sure, you think its silly, but you're probably an atheist or agnostic. Honestly if you're going to go with the whole "how do you know that demons exist" thing then you'd be far better off asking the more common question "how do you know God exists". As it stands asking us how we reconcile the existence of demons is as simple as answering that God tells us about them in the Bible. I'm not going to get into an argument about the existence of God btw, I'm just saying the question could be worded better if that's the question you were asking.

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The term demon is open to interpretation, there's an entire subject based around it called demonology with different theories and interpretations of what a demon is and how it works within the theological framework

Any summoning techniques in there?

If god were proven real, I would immediately start researching which daemon to start worshipping.

Yes actually there are some books with summoning rituals that are ridiculously complicated and in depth

Are you stupid or just edgy?

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Solipsism is the crystal meth of philosophy, go sober up.

No, but gods a dick, I'd rather follow someone who doesn't hide that fact.

Does that make nihilism weed or heroine?

Heroin, yes. Stoicism is weed.

Ketamine, the initial euphoria of being free to chase your own destiny quickly falls into a hole of meaninglessness and suicidal tendencies

Well the CIA and the deep state does

The devil is important to Christian theology. For what other reason would Christ need to sacrifice himself? It's not some big surprise to Christians, and any one Christian who doesn't believe in Satan is pretty much a poser or larping. The Gospel has the ability to cast out demons synonymous with other miracles such as healing the sick. Jesus bestows authority on his apostles by letting them cast out demons in his name. He debated with the Pharisee on what authority he casts out demons with. It's not treated as some abstract thing.
If you want to defend the notion of a singular God, or the idea there is some kind of meaning or whatever, then you can believe that there is a God but no demons. But if you believe in a Christian God, you have to accept the existence of Satan.

>Honestly if you're going to go with the whole "how do you know that demons exist" thing then you'd be far better off asking the more common question "how do you know God exists".
>As it stands asking us how we reconcile the existence of demons is as simple as answering that God tells us about them in the Bible.
You're missing the whole point of my original post. The point was that it's forcing the claimant to prove a chain of claims before s/he can even get to the demon one which makes it cast a bad light on the religion.
It's kinda like saying that you have a dragon in the garage back home in your castle in the clouds.
I.e adding the existance of demons is counterproductive if you want your basic concept to seem more plausible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling
Is it autism?

No, it's snake handling.

People in the past used to take it literally. They only stopped when science proved them wrong.

Imagine being a sandnigger in 0 AD not knowing what autism or epilepsy is and this really charismatic guy comes along. Everybody listens to him and somehow he soothes these people into a less freaky state.
So how would you respond?

This is my biggest problem with religion.
>Hurr they're just stories
Yeah, maybe. But the church presented them as literal facts and actively shut down any notion that went against their facts. See: Galileo. The entire religion is built on a lie.

Exorcisms are still happening today, all over the world -- even in the "civilized" world.

There is no shortage of videos of it on Youtube.

youtube.com/results?search_query=demon exorcism

Of course, it is very easy to say that these people are mentally ill, or craving attention, or that the exorcists are charlatans, and so on.

But the phenomenon of demon possession presents many strange peculiarities when closely examined. Peculiarities that can't be easily explained, if at all, within a modern materialistic paradigm.

I'm talking things such as possessed people vomiting nails or other objects. Or speaking languages they do not know. Or knowing information they had no way of knowing. Or levitating.

(By the way, there are videos of genuine levitations on Youtube if you know how to find it.)

This post is getting long. What I mean is that materialism, the unbelief in the supernatural, does not withstand a close scrutiny of these kinds of phenomena. Some of the most brilliant people I know are religious and acknowledge this fact.

The idea that disbelief in the supernatural is the very mark of intellectual sophistication is a silly meme.

(cont.)

Even the CIA acknowledge the reality of the paranormal: cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00792R000300390001-2.pdf

But the popular conception is that "smart, scientifically-minded guys" are guys like Walter White, Dr. House, or Bill Nye.

It almost seems like a deliberate fabrication intended to lead the middlebrow public into unbelief.

Again: examine these phenomena with *real scientific rigor* and you will be surprised at what you find.

(Or, you know, just sit back and feel good about your unexamined skepticism that makes you so much smarter than the credulous masses.)

But if I had a castle in the clouds then having a dragon as well would hardly even be surprising. Christians make the claim that God exists, but adding the claim that demons also exists doesn't make it less believable because of course demons exist if God exists, why would demons not be capable of existing when there's an omnipotent God?

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Everything 'leaked' by the CIA for public consumption is disinformation, so...
There's that.
Post Levitation or your lying.

>muh Galileo meme

>>demons are totally possessing people you guize just check youtubes for proof of this
Wow, how totally convincing. Oh wait, no it isn't.

Bare in mind that protestants include both more normal mainline denominations and also batshit fundie types.

>>Catholics seem to shy away from that, the Church almost never sanctions an exorcism and tell people to get their head examined instead. I'm not sure, but I think Catholic dogma is that while the devil and hell exist, they're powerless to influence humanity thanks to Jesus' Sacrifice.
That plus a strong dose of not wanting to look like idiots when it is shown that the person who thought they were "possessed" turns out to be either crazy or high on something.

This is the obvious explanation for the phenomenon in question but people don't like obvious explanations, so we get all this tedious woo peddling instead.

Sure, here you go.

(This is occult stuff. Watch at your own peril. Maybe say a prayer before you do.)

youtube.com/watch?v=SnLj8DMqaC8
youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q

Could the videos be fake? Sure.

There are interesting things going on here, though:

1) In both videos, the people shooting them seem to be convinced of the reality of the leviation, or at least can present no explanation of it.

2) In both videos, although the phenomenon is taking place within very different religious traditions, the levitator is within a magic circle. Maybe the practicers of magic have been right about the power of magic circles all these millenia?

Skeptics could at least admit that's an interesting pattern, worthy of further investigation. But skeptics tend to simply ignore the patterns.

>No, it just requires proof it isn't an illness or addiction, which it almost always is
What if illness and addiction are the work of demons?

I did not say the Youtube videos are proof. I said this widely recorded phenomenon, when closely examined, reveals interesting and hard to explain patterns.

>unironically "it's real, watch this youtube video"

OOOOH OOOOOH OOOOH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHA
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

HOWLING right now

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In the most generous version of this "meme" as you call it, your religious authorities are still having someone placed under arrest for insulting them. I dunno about you, but if I call someone a stupid faggot, I don't think the cops putting me in jail or house arrest or whatever else is an appropriate response.

The thing about skeptics is this:

Even if they see a guy in a psychward, in a straitjacket, and there are five guttural demonic voices speaking through his mouth at the same time, and these voices are speaking Greek and Latin and Aramaic and the guy is no linguist,

...they'll just be like, "Uh well, I'm sure the DSM has a word for that. Like uh I guess it's just an extreme case of like, schizophrenia? I mean demons? Hahah yeah right what is this, the middle ages?"

You're not very bright, are you?

I did not say the Youtube videos are proof.

I said there are interesting patterns to be observed in these phenomena. Patterns that defy the materialistic explanations that are usualyl proposed.

Is that too subtle a point for you?

>watched vids
>i'm in great peril, Help me, user
Just kidding.
I turned first vid off directly; I have a good BullShit detector.
2nd vid: complete bullshit, just think of the mechanics of a rope being around his torso.
His legs swung below, exactly as if being lifted.
It's all BullShit.

According to the Catholic Church literal demons exist, what is there to defend? If Christ cast out demons then they literally exist (though basically all the saints tell you to worry more about other people fucking you over than about demons)

Alright.

I guess the supernatural does not exist, then.

The idea has been thoroughly discredited by you, the eminent scientist, the rigorous scholar, the banisher of superstition.

It's not like these two videos are the only examples of possible paranormal phenomena.

Here, let me link to it again, even the CIA officially acknowledges the reality of paranormal phenomena: cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00792R000300390001-2.pdf

But I don't think that will persuade you out of your skepticism, will it? I mean would Dr. House be swayed by it? Would Walter White? You're a smart skeptical man, after all.

I'm just saying if you look closer at these phenomena they're not as easily dismissable as all you geniuses think. But fine, whatever.

Cheers.

First off they certainly aren’t my authorities or even religion. That being said the entire point of the dark ages/Galileo meme is that the big bad church suppressed science because it conflicted with their orthodoxy. Locking someone up because he called the pope a faggot, doubly so when the reason he called the pope a faggot was because the pope said there wasn’t enough proof, simply does not support the original suppression idea at all.

user, I....
Not a single one of these videos present a scientific analysis of any pattern. They're, just, literally, poorly filmed "extraordinary events" "happening" before a camera. I went here expecting the entry-level /x/ bullshit and even I was disappointed. I could have been impressed, were I 12. You claim that an analysis of the "patterns" presented in these videos leads to the conclusion that the "paranormal" exists. You claim that this analysis exists and make the more extraordinary claim that this analysis cannot be debunked. Where is it, user? Is it in your mind?

Motherfucker those videos you linked are ancient aliums tier bullshit.

That's an amusing hypothetical. Unfortunately for your position it has sweet fuck all to do with reality. Exorcist was just a movie, dude.

I had a friend of mine, tried to kill herself;
She took a bunch of drugs and hulked out in a city park.
They said she ripped her clothes completely off, like, shredded em,
With ease, and it took about four cops to subdue her.
I went to see her in ER. They had her strapped to a bed.
She was writhing everywhere, and her muscles were contracting, HARD.
The contractions pulled her jaw/neck muscles to where the side of her mouth pulled all the way down almost to her neck.
(This is a very true story)
It exposed all her teeth and tongue, and made her look fucking wicked.
Big ass black guard was freaked out.
I think he was mumbling prayers.
I don't think it was supernatural.
I'm not trying to be a hard ass with you,
I think there are things that cannot be explained.
and unexplored regions of our mind, which,
These might be 'supernatural'.

I said that the pattern is interesting and merits further investigation. That's all I said.

Why is there a magical circle in both videos? Even if both are fake, why the magical circles? And in both cases the people filming it seem to be genuinely impressed.

I'm not saying they should be. Maybe they're naive. But their reaction seems to be genuine. They themselves cannot explain what they are seeing. Is this not interesting in the least?

I guess not. I guess Science and Rationality have won the day. The fog of superstition has been dispelled. The world has been made a brighter place. Good job.

user, you're totally unable to explain why the videos you have shown us are not fakes. You sound like you did not even expect someone would challenge the reality of these images.
user, you've exposed yourself as someone that looks at a thing on the internet, and thinks it is true. You haven't made yourself look like a free thinker or a rationalist. Your credibility is falling by the seconds. You've made yourself look like an idiot. Now if you could get out of the trap you're into, it would be by explaining right now how these videos are not forgery, and not by making numerous claims in the hope that you will make us forget that you posted youtube videos and hoped to impress us.

Did she forgot to button her shirt and just realised it or what the hell happening?

user, you cannot place trust in reactions that seem to be genuine. user, why do you antagonize constantly, yet strive to sound like you are rational? When you examine how the cameramen of low quality youtube videos seem to be impressed, you sure do not sound rational.
user, magical circle are as common a trope as ghosts making doors open. Are you saying you could post 2 more youtube videos showing "ghosts" in old mansions making doors open, and say "wow, this pattern of ghosts making doors open seems to be repeating, mmmmhhhh, perhaps it is worth investigating".

I did not hope to impress anyone with Youtube videos.

I merely posted them. I fully acknowledged they could very well be faked. I merely pointed interesting similarities between both.

I'm not interested in winning a debate. Go on merrily with your skepticism.

There are days where I wish God didn't exist. I have come to the conclusion that he exists against my own wishes.

It would take several pages to adequately explain my position. I'm not the credulous medieval peasant you are trying to caricature me as. If you are truly skeptical you will extend your skepticism to the philosophical materialism that is the fashionable philosophy of our times. You will be skeptical of the claims of those who say that nothing exists beyond matter.

I'm tired of this debate. It would take pages to explain that I haven't frivolously arrived at my conclusions. Sorry if I insulted you, I tend to take things too personally. Have a good day.

>I did not hope to impress anyone with Youtube videos.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Sorry, user. Just having some fun.

The Vatican is in direct communication with demons, up to and including the devil. That's why they don't talk about it, and that's why there are so many possessed people in and around the Vatican.

eyes?

Everything in reality has to be proven to you before it can exist?

Who exactly are you?

Some context is that Jews believed that diabolic influence/possession and physical ailments were punishments for sins.

But yes I stand by this belief.

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Taught by demons to fools. They were angels; they were under satan's authority; they fell from grace, lost their first estate, and became demons. The only other things that exist are the evil spirits of the demon/human hybrids, the nephilim.

They all lie, and you dabbling in the occult is just you opening yourself up to damnation.

They also believed that the richer you were, the more you were blessed by God.

They had and hold many false beliefs.

Sure. Jesus talked against this materialistic way of thinking. St Augustine's book "City of God" goes much more in depth. I highly recommend it.
My point was to give some context to Jesus' miracles and ministry as recounted in the four gospels.

Have a good night or a nice day. I sure am glad you weren't interested in winning a debate, I would have had to spend a lot of efforts otherwise.

Demonology is a legit subject in theology. Angelology is much more of a pleasant topic though.
It's not ordered right for most people to have any knowledge of demonology so when laymen gain a knowledge independent without it being proper to their state in life it is usually on account of the vice of curiosity.

That's just not true.
Augustine, On Christian Doctrine Book 3 Chapter 5:
>.But the ambiguities of metaphorical words, about which I am next to speak, demand no ordinary care and diligence. In the first place, we must beware of taking a figurative expression literally. For the saying of the apostle applies in this case too: "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."(2) For when what is said figuratively is taken as if it were said literally, it is understood in a carnal manner. And nothing is more fittingly called the death of the soul than when that in it which raises it above the brutes, the intelligence namely, is put in subjection to the flesh by a blind adherence to the letter. For he who follows the letter takes figurative words as if they were proper, and does not carry out what is indicated by a proper word into its secondary signification; but, if he hears of the Sabbath, for example, thinks of nothing but the one day out of seven which recurs in constant succession; and when he hears of a sacrifice, does not carry his thoughts beyond the customary offerings of victims from the flock, and of the fruits of the earth. Now it is surely a miserable slavery of the soul to take signs for things, and to be unable to lift the eye of the mind above what is corporeal and created, that it may drink in eternal light.

Augustine was a scholar. What did the common uneducated man think?