VEGAN GENERAL

A place for discussing all things vegan ethics, politics & health

Meat consumption is ruining the environment.
- Pollutes rivers
- Forests cleared for livestock
- Causes soil degradation
- Feeding animals is massively inefficient
- Major contributor to global warming.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production

Vegan Health

reddit.com/r/veganfitness/wiki/index

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

veganhealthandfitnessmag.com/2015/02/where-do-you-get-your-b12/

Animals and Ethics - iep.utm.edu/anim-eth/#SSH3ai

The most common and well known argument is the argument from marginal cases. Loosely speaking, the argument contends that animals as sentient & intelligent as retards should have the same moral status

(Meatcucks please read the following before leaving a stupid comment)

Ad Hominem - yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Strawman - yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Appeal to nature - yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

Tu Quoque - yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Morality is relative - Science, logic, mathematics are all based on axioms that are not proven, what is different about morality and moral axioms? Think this argument through before arguing for it, it is not as simple as you think.

Meatcucks please realise the difference between normative ethics (what we ought to do) and descriptive ethics (what beliefs do people have). Normative ethics is what is being discussed with regards to veganism and morality.

e.g.
- people should not eat animals for x reason (relevant normative claim)
- people eat animals for y reason (irrelevant descriptive claim)

Dominion (2018) Trailer -
youtu.be/LpDJlEQsDoA

Baby cow stolen from mother -
youtu.be/aaqR9V4XkXA

Other urls found in this thread:

pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/diet-cancer/facts/meat-consumption-and-cancer-risk
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5166514/
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197458015001827
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877199
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC164220/
ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/Corn/corn001.htm
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479225
sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-skinny-on-saturated-fat/
youtube.com/watch?v=LPxIssabhTc
youtube.com/watch?v=f_4Q9Iv7_Ao
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850317
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11108325
poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/toxicagents/lectins.html
theveganrd.com/vegan-nutrition-101/food-guide-for-vegans/
gnolls.org/1984/the-science-behind-the-low-carb-flu-and-how-to-regain-your-metabolic-flexibility/
tinyurl
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

>Two themes consistently emerge from studies of cancer from many sites: vegetables and fruits help to reduce risk, while meat, animal products, and other fatty foods are frequently found to increase risk. Consumption of dietary fat drives production of hormones, which, in turn, promotes growth of cancer cells in hormone-sensitive organs such as the breast and prostate. Meat is devoid of the protective effects of fiber, antioxidants, phytochemicals, and other helpful nutrients, and it contains high concentrations of saturated fat and potentially carcinogenic compounds, which may increase one’s risk of developing many different kinds of cancer.

pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/diet-cancer/facts/meat-consumption-and-cancer-risk

when did you get /woke/, Veeky Forums?

bump

...

I dont give a fuck, bacon tastes good and ill keep eating it. Mad vegays?

don't give a fuck about your fallacies, going vegan makes you a faggot end of story

not at all. seeing the light takes time my friend. try going meatless a day a week, see how you feel. good way to expand your cooking skills too

meatcucks will defend this

How about, lick my alpha cock while I eat a sausage.

>that CO2 kill
savage, don't really care though

Vegan is NOT healthy. Keto + Fasting is.
If killing animals means that I live longer, then I choose myself over them. Why the fuck would I value some shit stained animal over my own life.

as a vegan who doesn't like dark leafy greens, is it possible for me to not supplement for vitamin K and E?

thats an incredible arguement man, im now totally convinced that a plant-based diet is bad

why even come in a vegan thread if it triggers you so much? you seem like the only one mad here.

Lectins found in most vegetables and are specifically high in legumes, grains and nightshades will cause arthritis an ultimately lead to massive inflammation and promote many chronic diseases which could have been prevented simply by limiting their intake.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/
High carbs from starches will lead to diabetes and prevent cause your metabolism to use glucose instead of ketones. You essentially will have to eat these starches to maintain your desired calorie intake as there are very few high fat low carb plants. Also the glucose metabolism is directly linked to aging, whereas.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5166514/
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197458015001827
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877199
Don't forget to enjoy your heavy metal poisoning from bad soil and your mycotoxins from overuse of pesticides killing of the anti-fungal bacteria in the soil and therefore allowing the fungus to infect the whole plant through the root stocks.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5166514/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC164220/
ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/Corn/corn001.htm

Oops forgot to mention that preventing glucose metabolism will literally improve your cognitive function by switching your brain's metabolism to ketones.

don't worry, we are in the process of making one big gas chamber we called earth

>if killing animals means that I live longer

it doesn't. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479225

>Mortality from ischemic heart disease was 24% lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians
>in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans. There were no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, or all other causes combined.

literally no difference in mortality aside from heart disease, in which case vegetarian and vegan diets are significantly safer than omnivorous

BTFO

> your heavy metal poisoning from bad soil and your mycotoxins from overuse of pesticides killing of the anti-fungal bacteria in the soil and therefore allowing the fungus to infect the whole plant through the root stocks.

livestock are fed the same plants, how is this a solution? furthermore, you're familiar with larger fish containing more heavy metals than smaller ones, yeah? the further up the food chain you go, the more concentrated toxins become.

>implying high fat diets are good

sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-skinny-on-saturated-fat/
muh ketosis

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479225
Non-vegitarians means people who eat a Standard American Diet. That study obviously has selection bias as these people are also not ketogenic. Vegetarians are typically more health conscious than an average person as well, further cementing the selection bias.

>livestock are fed the same plants, how is this a solution?
This is why I would suggest only eating grass fed pastured meat. Little to no pesticides or heavy metals in the grass.
>the further up the food chain you go, the more concentrated toxins become.
Not quite true. Many toxins are eliminated by the animals which cannot be eliminated by plants. Animals can shit, plants cannot.

The arguments in your last link are highly flawed.
First, cholesterol and specifically VLDL cholesterol is a known factor in cardiovascular disease, however it is not a root cause for it and more of a tool to try to repair the root cause in the best way your body knows how. Think of it like the foam the firefighters spray on a burning house, in this case the burning house is your chronically inflamed body. The foam will of course ruin any furniture and items left in the house, but that's not the root cause of the disaster. Cholesterol in a non-inflamed body does not accumulate in the vascular system as there are no damaged arteries or veins for it to fill. It instead gets used for its primary purpose of being the building block of every single cell in your body, without accumulating anywhere.
Eating cholesterol also does not cause you to have more fasted cholesterol in your blood as it all gets metabolized quite quickly and will instead be used mostly for energy.
As for sugar, What I've Learned does a much better job than I could explaining why you don't need a single gram of sugar in your diet and why it is better for you if you don't.
youtube.com/watch?v=LPxIssabhTc
youtube.com/watch?v=f_4Q9Iv7_Ao

How do you feel about meat-based low carb being destructive to health, but plant-based being beneficial, or at the least, non harmful?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038

>A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.

not that keto is a good idea under any circumstance aside from obese people or those sick with cancer.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850317

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11108325

>individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI) through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.
>These findings suggest that a dietary pattern characterised by a low amount of carbohydrate, but high amounts of protein and fat, is associated with a poorer small artery vascular reactivity in patients with increased CV risk.

forgot
>Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality

I like those posts because they are useful for open-minded vegans who want to perfect their diet. You're absolutely right, there are many ways to fuck up a vegan diet and make it unhealthy. Legumes, soy, potato, corn, nuts, gluten/wheat, high omega-6 vegetal oils, brown rice and even fruits (fructose) should be avoided. But even when the general vegan population eats all those terrible shit, they still have better health than omnivores because of how meats and dairy are unhealthy and anti-androgenic on so many levels. Dioxins, casomorphins, metalloestrogens, endogeneous estrogens, choline, carnitine, tmao, pathogens. Still, restricting your diet in variety is helpful. Good post.

>Legumes, soy, potato, corn, nuts, gluten/wheat, high omega-6 vegetal oils, brown rice and even fruits (fructose) should be avoided.

legumes, nuts, gluten and fruit should be avoided... the fuck? citation needed broscientist.

Legumes and gluten are lectins, see study the guy posted. Gluten has opioid properties and activates the endotoxin receptor TLR4, also inceases gut permeability leading to more endotoxins. Fructose has many studies on its negative effects and sugar feeds candida/yeast. All nuts except macadamia are high in omega 6, which has many studies on its negative effects. Nuts are also high in metalloestrogens (cadmium, nickel). Peanuts and cashes are lectins. Lectins are inflammatory if you're too lazy to search it.

Also, all legumes are high in anti-androgenic daidzein and genistein. Which is the compound most present in soy and responsible for its testosterone-lowering effects, but they are also high in all kinds of beans and peas.

good thing legumes (with the exception of peanuts) are only consumed after cooked in liquid.

poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/toxicagents/lectins.html

>Thirty minutes of dry heating had little effect on hemagglutinating activity of certain varieties of V. vulgaris, and activity was still detectable after 18 hours of heating. Whereas, heating of the soaked beans or autoclaving was fully effective.

Does that say VESAN or VE/AN? Stupid bitch.

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038
Interesting study. I would be curious in knowing specifically what meats and plants were used in it. While the mortality rate difference between the two groups is minuscule on an individual level, there certainly is a trend as indicated by the P values. I could try and dig into the studies this specific study used to get its data and see if they present more details on the diets and the specific selections of each group. As for my interest is peaked, but I can't say for certain until I give a closer look at methodology.

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850317
This study looks at people with an already high risk of cardiovascular disease. This means for whatever environmental or genetic reasons they likely have some form of chronic inflammation, which could easily be from non-dietary means, but i'm not discounting dietary influence. The problem with this sort of study is that it looks at the macro-nutrients only, and not the source of the macro-nutrients. While that can be very insightful, I would remain skeptical. Its very easy to do high fat / low carb very wrong by eating the wrong types of oils and their sources of food could be just crap. (see people who think a snickers bar is ketogenic)
Also I should note that even their highest quartile was still not truly in ketosis from the numbers shown.

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11108325
Ketogenic != High protein. While it is very easy to eat high protein on a ketogenic diet, I would not recommend it as it can be detrimental to health and lead to many adverse consequences.
My personal gold standard for ketogenic macro-nutrient compositions is 80% of calories com from fats, 15% come from proteins, and 5% from carbs (preferably prebiotic and fibrous).

it's how sickcunts spell vegan

Are you on a ketogenic diet? How does it feel? Does it feel different at all?

Most of the time I am in ketosis, although I occasionally break it. I feel highly energetic most of the time, my mental clarity is certainly higher. I used to be chronically depressed, but now I feel fulfilled and usually am able to see my goals to completion.
I recently got a blood test which showed my health in perfect condition, I was mostly interested in seeing my lipid panel, and it was all in normal ranges, actually on the lower end for LDL and higher end for HDL.
The comprehensive metabolic panel also showed all good numbers. One thing I forget to ask for is my C-reactive protein, so I don't know that. It would have been nice to judge my inflammation, but oh well.

As far as my body composition goes, I started ketogenic a bit before I started lifting. I went from about 21% body fat to 13% without any exercise in around 6 months. After my initial fat loss I even started to gain weight in the form of muscle even though I wasn't doing anything strenuous (my day job involves me sitting in a chair all day). I also have been lifting and water fasting more recently, and it appears to be working well. Gained a few inches on my biceps, my pecs are much more noticeable. Abs are beginning to be defined.
Hoping to reach 10% body fat soon.

>metalloestrogens

Holy shit, there are more numale generators other than phytoestrogens and xenoestrogens.

You guys appear knowledgeable, could you give me a quick rundown about every kind of estrogen there's in food and which foods to avoid?

For carbs I eat white rice because no phytates or lectins since the cereal is removed, I also eat fried chips but know that potatoes are shit. I'm not a vegan btw.

I want to go vegan because I don’t want to kill any more animals. How do I switch from a heavy meat, dairy and egg based diet to a vegan diet? I am planning to make slow changes to my diet, but I don’t know how to do this. Is there any beginners guide on how to go vegan?

Can you stay on ketosis eating 100g of white rice a day? And what about 50g?

Realize that killing is natural and that drawing the line with animals leaving plants and or whatever other lifeforms out is arbitrary and absurd.

Animals kill other animals for food, that's nature. As long as you don't kill animals for fun or sport, it's ok in my book.

for sure mayne. start off by dedicating 1 day a week to plant based, then increase as you feel comfortable. massively increasing the fibre in your diet all at once will not be pleasant. ive been there. bright side is after youve adjusted, shitting becomes a pleasure.

theveganrd.com/vegan-nutrition-101/food-guide-for-vegans/

are you interested in good starter recipes?

No. There's not any substantial amount of fats in white rice, and you need to be burning fats to switch to ketone metabolism. Although I would say for a non-ketogenic diet, white rice is probably one of the cleanest sources of carbs.

Really the easiest way to dip your toes in and feel the effects of ketosis without eating high fat for weeks is to fast for more than 2 days, as your body will use endogenous fat as a fuel.

Your appeal to nature is an invalid argument. Also, there is nothing natural about the conditions of factory farms.

Xenoestrogens is a broad term which includes metalloestrogens and phytoestrogens
There's lots of estrogen mimicking chemicals produced only by man, which would classify as xenoestrogens. BPAs for example. There are many many more, but it would take to long to list in this post. I saved an image somewhere but I can find it now, which went over in great detail what substances will have xenoestrogens in them. Mostly I would be wary of most soaps, creams, and lotions.

Thanks senpai. I don’t know how this is going to go, but I cannot continue to support factory farming.

I eat one meal a day, so most of the time I'm already fasting, the thing is I stuff myself with food in that one meal and as a result I'm fat, I can eat a lot of food in just one meal. I want to change this though.

What I usually eat is: 200g white rice with tomato sauce, two eggs, 100g shredded cheese, 6 potatos turned into fried chips, mayonnaise (you could say that a lot), ketchup (less than mayo, but still), a bit of broccoli and apium, and an apple.

I tried keto once and something weird happened.

On the first day I ate like one or two tbsp of butter, like 4 bacon slices, and mince meat.
The second day I tried the same and I couldn't finish the meal
The third day I wanted to puke and had no appetite at all

So I eventually dropped it.

I was wondering if I could still eat 50g or 100g of white rice plus tomato sauce, meat, and animal fats and still be into ketosis.

Could you provide input?

>and you need to be burning fats to switch to ketone metabolism.
Afaik, doesn't the body metabolize it's own fat into ketones on a caloric deficit?

Im eating another 2 pounds of beef in the next 8 hours. I dont even work out, I just dont want it to go bad and ive no room in the freezer.

>soaps
Would you say commercial soaps have a lot of *estrogens? Do they have a strong effect on the body since you apply them externally?
Would making your own olive oil soap be better?

>Your appeal to nature is an invalid argument.
As opposed to your appeal to morality? lmao

>Also, there is nothing natural about the conditions of factory farms.

I'm against factory farming because it's pretty much animal torture (chickens that don't ever see sunlight and other degeneracies). I support regular farming in which the animal lives somewhat a natural life and then gets butchered for meat.

>The third day I wanted to puke and had no appetite at all
sounds like keto flu
Very typical if your body is not used to eating high fat and therefore doesn't adapt fast
gnolls.org/1984/the-science-behind-the-low-carb-flu-and-how-to-regain-your-metabolic-flexibility/

>Afaik, doesn't the body metabolize it's own fat into ketones on a caloric deficit?
Without being in a strictly fasted mode e.g. the liver's glycogen supplies are fully depleted then the metabolism of endogenous fat is very limited. It can take up to 18 hours to deplete glycogen, and usually be then you will be eating again doing OMAD.
You really need to fast for 2+ days to feel the effects as ketone production has to ramp up, and as soon as you eat carbs/protein again it rapidly stops and the ketones get metabolized within hours.

The actual soap itself is not a xenoestrogen. Its the shit they add to it. Fragrances, frothing agents, etc.
Making your own soap is probably the best way to go as far as preventing xenoestrogens. I haven't done it in awhile, but its pretty fun.

>Without being in a strictly fasted mode e.g. the liver's glycogen supplies are fully depleted then the metabolism of endogenous fat is very limited. It can take up to 18 hours to deplete glycogen, and usually be then you will be eating again doing OMAD.
You really need to fast for 2+ days to feel the effects as ketone production has to ramp up, and as soon as you eat carbs/protein again it rapidly stops and the ketones get metabolized within hours.

So you can't burn bodyfat eating keto and not fasting? wtf?

>protein
Does protein matter for achieving ketosis?

>So you can't burn bodyfat eating keto and not fasting? wtf?
If you are eating 70% of calories as fat, you will go into deep ketosis eventually. It can take a week or more of strict eating though.

Oops forgot to add this
>Does protein matter for achieving ketosis?
Not really. It kind of hampers it actually. But you still need it to live obviously and its slightly better than carbs when it comes actually promoting ketosis.

So, if I were to fast for 2 days, I would enter ketosis, and then if I were to eat mostly fat and protein I'd still be in ketosis and burning my own bodyfat assuming caloric deficit?

P.S: I remember reading on r/keto that you can still be in ketosis eating a carbs within a limit.

Just to speak to the appeal to environmentalism, why do you always manage to miss the point that industrial scale food production of ANY kind will contribute to environmental degradation? It doesn't matter if it's factory meat production or large scale monocultural vegetable production, even with the added distinction of being labeled "organic".

None of the vegan alternatives in my local stores are produced locally, and will all be getting trucked in from god knows how many miles away. My local climate doesn't support the growth of any good plant based protein sources; I would much rather support local farmers by buying what I don't grow myself at the farmers market, and in the fall buy a side of pork to fill my deep freeze. Between that and storing a few fish from the salmon run, plus eggs from my chickens I am quite comfortably set for the year.

How about instead of assuming that one diet can be applied universally no matter where you live, you get to know your local farmers and base your diet around what can be grown locally, and in so doing educate yourself on your food sources.

>So, if I were to fast for 2 days, I would enter ketosis, and then if I were to eat mostly fat and protein I'd still be in ketosis and burning my own bodyfat assuming caloric deficit?
Essentially yes. As always YMMV, but a fast is a good way to kick-start ketosis. Your ketosis obviously won't be as deep when you are eating the protein, but it still should be reasonably high. Even in caloric excess you will still end up burning body fat, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you are trying to bulk.

>P.S: I remember reading on r/keto that you can still be in ketosis eating a carbs within a limit.
This is true. As long as a decent majority of calories come from fats you will eventually end up in ketosis, and the depth of your ketosis will be dependent on the ratio of fat:protein:carb

(You) are not vegan.
(You) are just some garden-variety troll-faggot refugee from (YOU HAVE TO GO BACK).
(You) probably are chowing down on a bacon cheeseburger, or pizza, or Hot Pockets even as you posted this shit-tier drivel of a troll post.
(You) are, as usual, a gigantic faggot.
(You) should become An Hero for wasting a perfectly good thread on this nonsense.

The truth about veganism:
tinyurl com / ydhcpv9s

vegans are stupid

like, eat nothing for 2 days?

Every time I look at vegan general threads I see meat eaters defending their diets. I don't see why they feel compelled to post here and defend their eating habits? I don't give a shit if you want to eat bacon like the other 99% of people I meet on a daily basis, such a weak troll.
These threads could actually be good if it weren't for all the triggered meat eaters.

Anyway, I'm bulking atm on 4k calories and I have trouble getting calories in at work. What snacks do you guys recommend? Getting sick of eating 700 calories of cashews throughout the day.

Hey bros

Trying to cut alcohol out completely. Any studies on the harms of alcohol or the benefits of teetotalism?

>that massive gyno
Yep, a vegan.

m8 I’m all for busting chops but what you’re implying is factually untrue

>phytoestrogens, metalloestrogens and xenoestrogens have no relation with having the hormonal balance required to develop gyno

ok bra

We don't have to, that shits gonna happen regardless of the 3% of the population adopting your gay little lifestyle.

>Not paying people to needlessly exploit and murder defenseless animals
>Gay little lifestyle

And an argument from futility for good measure. Appreciate your nuanced and informed opinion bro, I'm glad we have thinkers like you contributing to the discussion!

>nerve gas

Metalloestrogens in general don't only act like estogens. Take aluminium, it's involved in alzheimer. Cadmium, it's one of the most toxic metals in the periodic table. Lead decreases cognition. Nickel is involved in psoriasis (high in oats and spirulina, 2 meme "healthy foods") All those act like estrogens but they also have many negative effects.

Still isn't going to stop animals being "murdered", buddy.
Supply and demand.

Wash your hands with baking soda, it's very efficient at killing bacterias. Btw, white rice as your main source of carbs is the most safe option you can get.

Why arent move vegans libertarians?

If you believe in animal rights I'd assume you might like natural rights as well.

Also are vegan girls perfect? They seem to display so many good characteristics

Bad thing your study has nothing to do with genisten/daidzein. Man your IQ reflects a low androgenic state if ai judge by your retarded response.

you don't necessarily have to subscribe to some deontological 'rights' based morality to be vegan. E.g. Peter Singer, the father of modern vegetarianism is a utilitarian

Meat eaters and vegans alike PLEASE LISTEN!

DO NOT MAKE SOY PRODUCTS A STAPLE OF YOUR DIET! I was never truly vegan, but I started binging on tofu and soymilk because it's fucking delicious. Last night my nipples started burning intensely, and they still kind of hurt now. If you want to enjoy tofu/soy, DO SO IN MODERATION! If you want to have a vegan source of protein, look into gluten "meat" and pea protein. Phytoestrogens ARE POTENT and I learned the hard way.

Guess you're right.

I'm that he's a utilitarian. What a faggot

tell us the story bro

I don't care what you do.

>killing plants is no different than killing animals

Bacteria rights when?
Or perhaps we should just start eating humans?

The absolute state of meatcucks

Basically I started eating a bunch of soy products because I believed that exact image, and continued because I genuinely liked it. Soy milk with coffee, soy milk with pea protein (was about to buy a 4lb bag of soy protein), soy milk by itself. played around with various tofu recipe's and marniades. I avoided all red meat, and any meat I did eat was chicken or seafood. This went on for about a month or a month and a half until I started feeling a warm sensation in my nipples. Then they started burning and getting sensitive, and there was also this weird tingly/ticklish feeling in my chest. I knew from many posters in the past that this was a symptom of developing gyno so I made the decision to get back to a traditional diet. my nips still kind of ache as I type this.

Also, other estrogenic symptoms I may have overlooked during my time as a soyboy
>moodier and more depressive as a whole despite being a normally optimistic person
>slower strength progress
>lower libido and sexual pleasure (helped my PE at least)

I don't want to share this to dissuade people from trying out plant based nutrition, but rather to convince them not to use soy as a main protein source.

How's Alpro for plant milk, found a new one(oat & almond) that has no carrageenan
it's nice that it has plenty of vitamins, especially the E one which I find hard to get without spinach and almond comsumption daily

t.non-vegan

>consumption
I think you need more B12 and amino acids bro