Why do the Irish hate the British Crown but idolise Collins who favoured the Anglo-Irish treaty?

Why do the Irish hate the British Crown but idolise Collins who favoured the Anglo-Irish treaty?

Attached: Michael_Collins.jpg (220x297, 16K)

Because he, by his own admittance, only accepted it because it was the best deal possible.

Ireland went to war with the most powerful empire in history and got a deal that lead to full, official independence within 15 years(and de facto full independence a fair bit earlier.)

In Irish schools they frame this as the pro-treaty side being sensible pragmatists, genuinely doing what was best for Ireland, while the anti-treaty side were stubborn and short-sighted idealists who risked destroying Ireland's best chance at Independence, something that for all they knew they would never get again. Collins famously described the Anglo-Irish treaty as the 'freedom to achieve freedom'.

I think one thing that gets glossed over by how Irish schools teach about the treaty is the strong socialist element within the Irish revolutionary forces. The constraints of the treaty meant that these elements had less of a chance to put their ideas into practice, and by the time Ireland truly had the freedom to do what they wanted the conservative Eamon De Velera was in power. While De Velera was undeniably brave he was also a complete cock. If you have any socialist sympathies this might seem make you side with the anti-treaty forces, but I'm probably a socialist and even I don't agree with this. It was the treaty or back to square one. In general though socialist involvement in the Irish revolutionary period is well presented in the Irish secondary school curriculum-I'm not suggesting it's deliberately obscured or omitted.

And just to be clear, you don't have to be a socialist to hate that De Velera and those like him had such a big role in shaping the state. It's in large part their fault Ireland was extremely socially repressive and ruled by the church until like the nineties, a state of affairs which caused a lot of child-rape, child death, and the imprisonment of unwed or 'willful' women in what were basically gulags.

Do they teach you anything about Childer's? He seems to be a very important figure in getting Ireland domestic and foreign support with his papers but I rarely see him mentioned in these kinds of threads

You know what his name rings a bell, I'm SURE he was discussed at some point, but he's not held up as one of the big figures like Collins and De Velera. I looked him up, and some things ring bells, so he was definitely mentioned, but again, not a major player with the way I remember it. The clearest memory I have for some reason is an off-hand reference to his novel 'The Riddle of the Sands'.

I also did maybe like 4 or 5 Irish history classes in college and don't remember a major reference to him, but that could easily be from me skipping lectures.

>hate the british crown
Not really, it just became a larger symbol for the incompetence and autism that came with British rule. In turn it became associated with and often blamed for the various disasters and troubles brought upon the Irish by the aforementioned incompetence. Most English dick-moves to Ireland weren't out of malice (with a few obvious exceptions) but more out of sheer negligence or stupidity in regards to certain circumstances or situations.

>Collins favoured the anglo-irish treaty
It's less that he favoured the treaty itself and more that he preferred it to what no treaty would bring. The Anti-Treaty men were essentially so "tantalisingly close" to a true free an unified Ireland that they couldn't accept that their war effort was unsustainable for much further beyond this point. The deal made was one which essentially ended hostilities but gave Ireland a HUGE amount of wiggle room to eventually become the free Ireland which men like Collins desired. "Not freedom, but the freedom to achieve it" was the term I believe.
When you look at it, it essentially worked. You have a totally free and independent Irish Republic, and in Northern Ireland there's like 1 seat between those who want to stay in the UK and those who want to join the Republic.
When collins signed the treaty he said "I may have signed my actual death warrant" or whatever.

Mostly as said, De Valera's literal only redeeming qualities were his actions in WW2 in regards to keeping Ireland neutral. Beyond that he's a scumbag and undid so, so much of what was quite literally all sitting waiting to be implemented by those willing to do so.

Great explanations lads. I'm a bit of a contradiction. I'm English and a big patriot, but I'm also quater irish. It doesn't sound like a lot but my dad's side of the family is large (you can expect that from the Irish) and we involve ourselves heavily in irish culture such as music as sports. I loved the British Empire but I'm an Irish republican too.

You can be an Irish Republican and think the British Empire is rad, user. The British Empire was rad. Most Irish people don't even hate the UK, they just act like it to trigger the Loyalists in Northern Ireland (everyone up there is a gormless fuck)
Irish Independence from Britain is a just cause but hostilities between the two countries is pointless; even Collins himself felt this way. A MASSIVE majority of Irish rebellions were in reaction to the British doing some stupid shit that resulted in suffering for the Irish or for increased autonomy/self rule to prevent more retarded British shit happening later.

Only a handful had severing ties in mind.

True mate. I do hate the Northern Irish though - just general scum. A few months ago at uni some N. Irish scroat accused me of nicking his bottle of drink

>You can be an Irish Republican and think the British Empire is rad, user

I guess hypothetically you could if you were extremely racist against everyone the British ever conquered except for the Irish, but that would be an exceedingly uncommon attitude in Ireland.

Your statement about the goals of rebellions is kind of true for some of the rebellions in the middle ages, but stops being true with the United Irishmen rebellion, which was seed of modern Irish Nationalism. The current Irish Republic is the legacy of a fervent desire for Independence.

You're right that the Irish don't hate the English, but that's because they separate English people from the actions of the empire, which is considered one of the most horrific things to ever exist. We're not perfect, and there's a lot of awful shit that a lot of Irish people wouldn't be so opposed to, but thinking about the British Empire in the same light as you'd think about the Third Reich is a defining feature of Irish culture.

For a lot of Irish people who don't take too much interested in Irish history he's the easiest name to remember and he's probably the biggest character too, as such he's super popular.

Also the fact that he died early meant that he couldn't be tarred by what he did during the civil war as much so presumably republicans wouldn't hate him as much.