At what point in WW2 was Germany doomed to be defeated with no chance of turning the tide?

Probably when they failed to overrun and capture the British Army during the battle of France. That mean no chance for a peace settlement whatsoever and made American involvement in the war inevitable. Attacking the Soviet Union on top of this was the cherry on top of the stupid sundae which was Hitler's long-term strategic planning.

30 January 1933

Had Hitler waited for a Plan Z or something like it to finish:

A) His now massively overheated and directed towards armaments economy would likely have collapsed in a flurry of riots as people are unwilling to see their living standards degrade without an 'active' war going on.

B) The UK and France notice this continued and massive military buildup and match their own military spending, or at least ramp up theirs to be somewhat competitive with the Germans. Given how they have much larger economies (The UK alone outproduced all of pre-war Germany, nevermind the empire)

If anything, Hitler needed to attack sooner, not later. But what he really, really needed is the political capital to turn his early victories into a stable post-war settlement. He maneuvered himself into a corner where he could only fully conquer or die trying, and that's a bad position to be in.

>Probably when they failed to overrun and capture the British Army during the battle of France. That mean no chance for a peace settlement whatsoever
Please explain how destroying about 10 divisions of the BEF forces Britain to come to terms. Especially when they were deployed at the order of the last government, the one kicked out, not Churchill's government.

February, 1942

Forces? I didn't say anything about it forcing Britain to the table.

>>That mean no chance for a peace settlement whatsoever
Read the post again and this sentence in particular.

What happened then? America joined on December 7, 1941, is the tenth when they deployed or something

By 1939 the UK and France were already rapidly catching up to German production with a lower level of mobilization and the prospect of massive armaments shipments from the United States. By 1939 Hitler had nothing at all to gain by waiting

Germany declared war on the U.S. on the 10th

When Operation Blau failed.
The strategic aim of Blau was to capture oilfields in the Caucasus while blocking access from Baku by blocking the Volga River. Once that failed, Germany had no chance of having a peace with favorable terms. Keep in mind that Germany started Barbarossa with only 2 months of operational fuel stocks (fuel needed for offensives).

You're acting like there's a snowball's chance in hell that Britain would ever come to terms with Germany other than when Westminster Palace has SS troops storming through it. There wasn't. Hitler had broken too many treaties, some of them bilateral ones with the UK in the past 3-4 years to make that happen. If you don't force Britain to the table, there is no peace, 0% chance.

So I again repeat the question, why the hell do you think destroying the BEF is even relevant?

Declaring war on the US. If, they didn't, America wouldn't be able to justify pulling their resources toward north Africa and Europe, and be forced to focus on the Pacific and Japan. But they did, and American threw in a continent's worth of troops to flood Europe with our untapped manpower we got to multiply from WW1

>Had Hitler waited for the navy rearmament program to finish

It's not like the Poles, French, British, etc. would have all just sat there doing nothing, they'd have built up their forces also and the end result would have been the same.

Germany's advantage was in getting the jump on the allies, waiting would have only put them in a more difficult position.

Besides, the German naval plan was retarded from the start, as the Germans would never have been able to match the UK, let alone the UK plus the allies.

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Agreed with this.
There was up until this point a concievable, however far fetched, possibility of the germans winning. If they had played every single card right they could have still won - in theory.

However in reality, one could also say that once Operation Barbarossa failed to take it's war aims the war was also lost.

Any scenario where the germans are forced into a war of attrition is an unwinneable scenario for them.

December 10, 1941

Early 1942, after the U.S. entered the war, the Red Army pushed HGM away from Moscow, and the Ostheer's offensive capability was so weakened that any knockout blow of the Soviet Union was unforeseeable in the near future.

>Plan Z would beat the RN
Nope

Barbarossa exceeded its aims though, they destroyed or captured more Soviet soldiers than they thought they would, problem was they also thought that was everything the Soviets had

I don agree, sorry. If Britain is being facing Germany essentially alone while the Germans have an entire army worth of soldiers held prisoner an armistice agreement will look rather tempting to the British government. Nobody could have known that Hitler was going to attack the Soviets and declare war on the USA after the fall of France. The UK was in a very desperate situation for a while and something like this may well have been the thing that would tip them over to being willing to consider an armistice. I grant you that it's unlikely, but "no chance in hell" is pushing things a bit.

The destruction of Soviet armies was only a means to an end of reaching the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, which they never came anywhere close to.

Territorial aims of Barbarossa were never set in stone and changed all the fucking time, the only consistent plan was destroying Soviet armies

>Territorial aims of Barbarossa were never set in stone
It was literally in the first section of Führer Directive 21, which formed the basis of Barbarossa:
>In quick pursuit a line is then to be reached from which the Russian Air Force will no longer be able to attack the territory of the German Reich. The ultimate objective of the operation is to establish a cover against Asiatic Russia from the general line Volga-Archangel. Then, in case of necessity, the last industrial area left to Russia in the Urals can be eliminated by the Luftwaffe.

If Britain was in truly dire straights, the US would have stepped in. By new year 1941, 60% of Americans favored intervention in Europe.

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Invading the Soviet Union was a death sentence

A necessary one at that.

After the Battle of Moscow

Unless until the Germans can cross the English Channel, (and that's impossible) the British Empire will stay in the fight.

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1941

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30 April 1945

When our great leader died all hope was lost.

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September, 1939.
Anyone who says otherwise is a brainlet.

Friendly reminder that the British soldiers could escape only because the Germans let them do so. Hitler was hoping that GB would quit the war if they still had their army.

Destroying armies is not war strategy user, and that's why the Germans lost.

>capture oilfields
>have no way to carry the oil back to Germany
Great plan.

1939

when they invaded Poland. it's a miracle that France didn't crush them right then. another miracle that they beat France. then they were stuck facing the Soviet Union alone, with the UK always waiting in the West.

the problem was their allies. the only big one they had was fucking Italy. Spain was sympathetic, but just got done fighting a war. Japan seemed like a good idea at the time. turned out to be a very bad idea. Yugoslavia was in a civil war. Finland was less of a German ally than Sweden was, which was technically neutral. basically the only worthwhile ally they had was Romania. Hungary and Bulgaria were just too small to be majorly effective.

it wasn't really their fault that they lost Poland as an ally. but it was all downhill from there. they should have tried to get France or the UK to back them against Poland, instead of responding to Poland's antics, which gave France and the UK give a chance to go to war with Germany. from there, war with the USSR was inevitable, and they were never going to win that war.

the Third Reich fell essentially because of bad economics (German industry was abysmal compared to the UK and the USA, and the USSR was just too large), and bad diplomacy.

Why would it look tempting to Churchill, who had been advocating for war with Germany since the days of his political exile? And how does it overcome the trust deficit? Hitler broke the munich pact, Versailles, the Anglo-German naval treaty, and more besides. The British knew this. How could they possibly trust any treaty with Hitler's signature on it?

>The UK was in a very desperate situation for a while
There was no point where the UK was in existential danger.

...

When they started the war

>>Friendly reminder that the British soldiers could escape only because the Germans let them do so.

Friendly reminder, that autistic fucktarded brainlets who keep propagating that myth should all be shot. No. Shithler Did NOT allowed British to escape, the halt order was made by one of his generals.

Krautniggers repeadetly murdered encircled Brits by Air attacks, and by attacking medical/transport ships which carried british soliders.

>>German industry was abysmal compared to the UK

Uhmm.... Germany produced like 2x times more planes and 3x times more tanks than Brits did. Germany surpassed Britain economically fucking decades before even WW1, you dumb brainlet.

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Since fucking when is destroying an army for the soviets in WW2 a milestone ?
Does fuckers had the Persian Immortal equivalent of an army !

>Germany produced like 2x times more planes
Nope. See pic related and even just a wikipedia article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production

> and 3x times more tanks than Brits did
Again, they produced fewer tanks, and can only be said to produced more if you count all armored fighting vehicles as tanks. Even then, the ratio is about 1.5:1

warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/public/ww2overview1998.pdf (pp 30-31)

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Battle of Kursk, i guess.
It's like breaking your enemy's right hand.

The moment Barbossa failed to deliver a quick, decisive victory they were doomed. December 5, 1941 if you want a precise date.

when they said
>"lol lets attack our "ally" for no reason"

He is right, though, sorta. German intelligence drastically under-estimated the number of operational divisions the Soviets had available.

Wrong, dumb fuck. Germany made MUCH more both Tanks, and armoured vehicles. German industry fucking dwarfed that of England, and thats a fact. I don't know wtf are you trying to acomplish, by saying that German economy was ''absymal''. By 1942, Germany was arguably more powerful economically and industrialy than USA, having resources of entire fucking continental Europe at their disposal.

As soon as they attacked a country capable of fighting back. So June 1941.

>Had Hitler waited for the navy rearmament program to finish in what, five or seven years
Plan Z focused very heavily on the construction of large, fast battleships and heavy surface raiders which tended to look very impressive on paper but turned out to be quite vulnerable to aircraft once the shooting actually started. Every nation in the war ended up learning this the hard way. The Americans learned it at Pearl Harbor, the Brits learned it with the sinking of Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse. The Italians learned it at Taranto. The Germans learned it when a group of torpedo bombers crippled their prized battleship, Bismark.

Waiting for Plan Z to be complete would have given Hitler access to a very impressive looking, but fundamentally obsolete fleet of warships that would be extremely vulnerable to late 1940's aviation.

France was capable of fighting back, they just spilled their spaghetti.

> Absolutely incorrect. Going into the war the U.S. almost doubled the the Nazi's GDP and even with the Nazis occupation of other countries(France worth almost as all other combined) they still only managed 73% of the U.S. GDP at peak, with much less ability to turn that money into actual value. Also the Germans never came close to matching the United States in raw materials needed for the war effort, except maybe coal, and was completely dominated in Oil, Steel, and Aluminum production.

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Also allowing Soviet industrialization and economic output, in addition to replacing the military capacity lost after the Great Purge, and the completion of the modernization and expanison of equipment meant that the Nazis chances we're continuously decreasing. Also, the relatively recent revelation of the extent of the Versailles treaty regulations was fairly recent, and meant that suddenly Poland, the U.K., and France had a new reason to expand and mobilize troops.

>22 June, 1941
It was all over of them, unironically.
You can argue that "what about Moscow" but there was no chance for Germans to successfully take Moscow and secure it. By November Soviets deployed all of their far east reinforcement and it was impossible to destroy by that point, even if Germans miraculously took Moscow with giant cassualties, Soviets would just do the same thing as in Stalingrad due to giant far-east army and new mobilised army, surrounding it and eliminating more than half of german army in the east.
The best thing Nazis could've done, was playing their cards right and accepting the stalemate just like general staff extremely recommended, give autonomy to new liberated nations while treating them nicely and mobilise newly occupied eastern male civilians like von Bock and Manstein begged for, but knowing how absolutely retarded and sick in the mind Hitler and rest of NSDAP was, it wouldn't happen.

Also, with redirection of industrial output to war production, the United States could dominate every other power in plane, tank, and ship production, and especially had the advantage of being able to heavily mechanize troop and gun movement, while the Huns relied on horses for most of it's movement (excepting tanks). The U.S. produced almost half of the war production of the entire war.

>>capture oilfields
>>have no way to carry the oil back to Germany
>Great plan.

The other portion was blocking off Soviet access to Baku oil and pray that they can get the oil back somehow. Blau was the last chance Germany had to get a somewhat decent peace settlement.

>>The U.S. produced almost half of the war production of the entire war.

Except 1 German Tiger tank was worth 10 fucking Yank tommy-cooker, One Me-262 was worth 10 P51 Mustangs etc.

Germans had VASTLY superior weaponry, so so US production didn't even matter.

Invading the Soviet Union and expecting to win, it's not even debatable by this point.
They were fucked since the day one of Operation Barbarossa no matter how much successful they were in first months.

Please help this board have some god damn integrity instead of shitposting like this. At least I hope you are shitposting.

>The other portion was blocking off Soviet access to Baku oil and pray that they can get the oil back somehow.
First of all, Soviets were heavily supplied by allies, if they lost Baku, America will just continue supply them with oil. You think Allies and Soviets really cared how much nazis ere delaying their defeat? Soviets and Allies were playing the long game untill the development of the nuke, while nazis had to do everyting 100% succesfull and really fucking fast or they would lose which was inevitable.
Second, The allies already had plans to destroy oil fields of caucus since 1940's, look up "Operation Pike". Even if Blau was successful in capturing Baku, the soviets would simply burn their own oil fields and allies bomb the rest since nazis didn't have any air superiority or even capability that far in the front, not even mentioning the abysmal logistic nazis had already and how horrible it would be in all of caucasia.

You are kidding yourself if you genuinely believe push into caucasia was a relevant in saving the Reich.

>Except 1 German Tiger tank was worth 10 fucking Yank tommy-cooker

Attached: Two American soldiers inspect a destroyed German King Tiger tank, Belgium, 1944.jpg (1280x971, 206K)

>A single M8 Greyhound suddenly appears in your rear
psssh, nothing personell kid

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King Tigers would have oblitherated your shitty M8. Also, Me-262 was the best fighter of the war.

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>Also, Me-262 was the best fighter of the war.
>*guzzles fuel Germany does not have like a Italian guzzles wine*
>*absolutely defenseless on its long takeoff rolls and landing approaches*

psssh, nothin personnel, kid...

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t.El Goblino

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>M8
>a fucking armored car
>"King Tigers would have obliterated your shitty M8"
And yet, one has a confirmed Tiger kill.

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>By 1942, Germany was arguably more powerful economically and industrialy than USA
Someone already mentioned GDP but in physical terms, like steel production, the US produced half the world's steel in 1942.

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Not that annon, but was it against a King tiger or a regular one?

They didn't have to push into Baku, just block it off. They only had to capture Grozny and Maikop for the actual oil themselves which they succeeded in doing. The failure meant that there was no chance of getting any beneficial settlement.
Germany had no chance of a total victory after the failure of Barbarossa, when they decided to go for Moscow axis instead of the southern axis.

>>mobilise newly occupied eastern male civilians like von Bock and Manstein begged for

Oh please. The Prussian cadre of Wehrmacht despised Slavs even more than average NSDAP member. They actively exterminated them, stole their food to starve 20 millions of them, and were actively pursuing General plan Ost. And daily reminder that Prussia treated poles like Sub-humans long before even unifed German nation (or German national identity for that matter) became a thing.

Doesn't really matter, they both had roughly the same armor thickness (80mm) on the rear hull. The Tiger 2's rear is ever so slightly sloped to offer more protection than the flat rear of the Tiger 1, but at the time the Germans were producing Tiger 2 the quality of their armor had begun to degrade noticeably.

You do know, that Allies did not even had a cannon capable of Penetrating Tiger 2 fron front, right?

Not him, but where did you learn to read?

>rear hull

Learn to fucking read. Also, they didn't even need to penetrate the front when later war German armor quality was so shit that a sufficiently high caliber gun would cause the welding seam to crack at the bottom place and eject dinner plate-sized chunks of armor through the driver's face.

Don't know. The AAR doesn't specify, just "Tiger".

>Manstein hating slavs
You do realise he was literally half polish kashubian slav and was actually proud about it?
Also read "Lost Victories" by him. He summed it up perfectly, greatest opportunity every sane leader or generals would take, wasted by fanatical racial pseudo-science... Many wehrmacht generals were proposing to mobilise hundred of thousand of Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian soldiers but Nazis never allow that.
It doesn't matter what prussians(don't know why you mentioned them since they were castrated and balkanized by NSDAP) or what generals thought about occupied slavs, there were manny of them who saw germans as liberators against "oppressive bolshevism" and many wanted to support germans, but Nazi Higher ups fucked it all up as always. It would've increase desperate manpower germans needed, reduced partisant activity and useless prisoner mouth to feed.
A old Prussian general Von Bock in 1941 right after the start of invasion already wanted and was ready with project to mobilise 200,000 russian pows and volunteers into "Liberation Army" and forming a local government in the province of Smolensk, but Nazi higher ups and Hitler laughed about any of such idea...

It only took million of german soldiers lives and losing everything, just to finally create Russian Divisions in 1944 when it was all ogre.
Just to show you how deranged and retarded Nazis were...

Day one, minute one.

He was Jewish LARPer Hans Lewinski

This. Manstein was literally a Slav.

Lewinski wasn't a Jewish name, it doesn't come from the Jewish Levi but from the village of Lewino that Manstein's aristocratic ancestors used to own. The name literally means "of Lewino", he was Kashubian nobility.

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Kashubian nobility was Jewish

Jews can't be nobility.

>The original name of the Lewinski family was Royk. Later they added the name Lewinski as a designation of their large estate Lewyn (today the Polish Lewino).
>used the Brochwicz coat of arms
Fuck off Hasbara disinfo.

10% of "New" (1800-1818) German nobility in 1918 was Jewish even when they were less than 1% of German population

1st September 1939

Prussians are half-slavs and so are complete tsundere towards other slavic nations. They assimilated and german mixed with Silesians, Pomeranians, Mazovians, Kashubians, Sorbs, Wends, Polabians etc.
They didn't despise poles for racial bullshit, but because greater poland didn't assimilate into prussian culture like many other slavo-germans did, but instead became even more patriotich and nationalistic against assimilation, that extremely pissed off Prussians, especially Bismarck.
Prussians actually respected and liked Russians, Czechs and Croatians, considering them to be strong noble nations.
Bismarck was complete russoboo and craved the Russian alliance until Willy fucked it all up for "muh place under the sun"

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Good thing the Lewinski noble family existed since the early 16th century then and was not Jewish.

Somewhere during the initial phase of Barbarossa. Around the Battle of Moscow

>>don't know why you mentioned them since they were castrated and balkanized by NSDAP

No, they fucking weren't you moron. NSDAP was basically a fucking Prussian party. Its entire power structure and core was made up by Prussians. NSDAP didn't balkanized anything, Germany WAS literally Prussia, and the blind obedience to the State/Fanatical Ordung/Militarism was drilled into German minds by Prussian Honenzolern Dynasty. Prussia still formally existed until Febuary of 1946, when it was dissolved by Allies (thank fucking god for that). All traces of cancerous, fanatical Prussian ideology and culture were erradicated by Soviets in the Eastern Occupied territories.

And stop being a fucking Naive imbecile. Germany invasion East had fuck all to do with ''Muh Bolshevism'' but was simply a giant territorial grab, and extermination/genocidal campain based purley on Racial grounds. It had nothing to do with communism, (which by the way, was installed in Tsarist Russia by the fucking Prussian scum, and Hitler was actualy glad that Communism castrated, and destroyed Russian inteligentsit, because he thought it would make German Drang nacht Osten much easier. How fucking wrong he was...)

German commanders and Gernerals were literally saying that if they find a single slav worthy of seating with them at the table, they must have him killed.

I don't understand how fucking delusional you have to be, to consider German invasion of Poland/Russia as ''fight with Bolshevism''. Krauts simply wanted to exterminate, and kill All people between Oder and Ural.

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Eastern Europe was Germ'd left and right, it's probably more Germanic than Slavic

Maybe YOU learn how to fucking read, you cretin. King tiger was literally the pinnacle of Tank Enginnering, and would have slaughtered and steamrolled Allies, if more could be made. Oh, and the ''Bad steel'' meme was made by falsified Russian test which was purposely biased. K Tiger tanks armour was made with vastly superior Kruup Steel, and was 3x times harder than Shitty garbage that Western allies called ''steel''. K Tiger tank gun's velocity was literally unsurpased until late 60's.

It literally fucking oblitherated Shitty Allied tanks from 4.5 Km. One M8 Got fucking lucky, and barley managed to knock out one, so fucking what? Face it, German technology was superior to anything Yanks/Limeys/Slavshits could ever come up with, and war was only barley won by Russians by throwing people into meat grinder.

1933 since nazi germany was unsustainable.

This is gr8 b8 m8