Veeky Forums why do so many of you support a system that crushes you? Most of you have taken the red pill and see that unless you've won the genetic lottery, you'll never ever be taken seriously as a man. And yet, if I called this culture of masculinity toxic, you'd call me a cuck libtard whatever.
Why do you support a system of toxic masculinity that marginalized 99+% of you, instead of fighting to reorder it?
Support? I don't remember voting in favor of life. I'm fighting the system if anything, but I'm not going to try and drag others down while I'm trying to build myself up.
Be more clear, this doesn't make much sense to me. It seems contradictory.
What do you want? For others to be as weak as you are so that everyone is equal? Maybe everyone should get everything in equality, and the government should start giving out gf's to everyone too. Life isn't fair, genetics isn't fair, but struggle on anyway. How would you propose to change the system anyway?
because society is fragile and the more it's changed the worse it seems to get, with only technology improving to make it bearable. so why should changing it even more suddenly help?
>instead of fighting to reorder it? because men try to improve for an ideal, women tries to level everything to their level to avoid hard work. so you are basically a woman.
Kek good one Also this is a bait thread
>not replying to bait seriously
If your conception of >A system of toxic masculinity Can be identified as >Present American society
Then >Fighting to reorder it Constitutes >Delusion against the reality of an unequal world
The real problem here is your priority of social status as the source of worth instead of honoring God, as evidenced by your being a commie faggot
Clue is in your reply: "for others to be as weak." I suggest we work to slowly reform our conception of masculinity wherein strength and weakness aren't predicated on genetic markers like height etc. There has been a project much like this ongoing for decades in regard to femininity called feminism.
My point is though that the "ideal" is both otiose and toxic. It's past it's use by date, and as a 21st Century society we can do so much better than this prehistoric "alpha male" bull shit. None of it is based in actual biology, it's cultural, and it can be changed.
>wherein strength and weakness aren't predicated on genetic markers like height etc. so you want to deny reality? sounds right.
>toxic masculinity Can you define this? What exactly about "masculinity" is potentially harming us?
You don't understand the redpill at all dawg (what you're saying is more blackpill). Life is not meant to be fair, you have to accept the heirarchy (or what you call toxic masculinity) and realise it's an inherent part of human psychology and therefore society. Once you realise this is the game we all play, you can begin to better yourself to win at it. Nothing will ever be achieved by trying to tear it down and refusing to play, because there will always be strong minded individuals to dominate the weak.
You guys both make the same mistake. You see things like "hierarchy' "dominance" and power as equated with physical strength as some kind of eternal law, rather than the cultural constructs they are. I'd agree that in a state of nature this is what it naturally devolves into, but we arent in a state of nature. What good is society and civ if we don't strive to make life better for everyone?
I don't support any system. I improve myself to improve myself in the ways I see as desirable. I try and build up others who desire the same. But then again I don't try to improve my "masculinity" even if that's how others perceive me, so maybe this isn't directed at me. I'm not sure what you would have people like me do.
You know I'm right about this board. It's a window into the damaged soul of american masculinity. There's no nobility in sickness.
I won the genetic lottery but I took a wrong turn somewhere and ended up very socially awkward and outcast Lifting has given me confidence I lacked during my formative years and I'm doing better than ever I assume that some people here are ugly no matter what but maybe if they get that confidence too they'll be in a better place than before
There's nothing wrong with healthy improvement user. Even in my perfect society I'd still lift, meditate, study etc. I'm directing my criticisms to the anchoring of value in arbitrary genetic markers which we erroneously see as representing masculinity.
>You guys both make the same mistake no mistake here. the hyerarchy that you talk about in a society is dictated by money, but since not everybody can be a millonaire the next stuff is to be the fittest version that you can achieve of yourself. why? because it shows effort and discipline, and anyone will admire that except some bitter whale that can do shit to better himself. you want to change the game because you are bad at it, and that won't happen,ever. so you have two option, stop giving a fuck and live with other whales that share you vision or try to improve yourself.
This isn't an argument. All you're doing is doubling down on the premise I'm rejecting. I'm asserting that the "game" you describe is changeable. My question to you is, if we can change the game to make it less crushing to the vast majority of men, why would we not do that? We do we insist - as you're doing right now - on digging in our heels to protect a system that results in insane levels of mental health issues.
OP, look man... this "toxic masculinity" isn't culturally constructed. It is just natural law.
No matter what you decide we should compete over, there will always be people to raise to the top, no such thing as total equality
>This isn't an argument. yeah, no, if you wanna do this grow up, let me explain this again. there will be always a hyerarchy as you like to call it. in your dreamworld, let's say fat is the new ideal type, ok, ready?
now the fattest people are the new ideal, they are the kings of beauty an masculinity, but guess what? not all people will be able to afford that amount of food, so now? you have a new hyerarchy above the rest, the fat chad vs the fit virgin that can't reach the new standard of beauty.
TLDR: no matter what, a new hyerarchy will rise because human nature works that way
change the fat with wathever you want, women in power, trans, faggots, anything.
if you still argue you are retarded or baiting, last (you) from me
I'm not advocating a no hierarchy dreamworld. I'm advocating for a healthy hierarchy.
I suggest you read Camus or "Sun and Steel"; then you might understand.
Those things are primarily there due to women user. Females decide the male dominance hierarchy. Though I do agree that a lot of people in our society should be improving themselves, and not focussing so much on things they can't change.
I've read every word Camus wrote. I read some Mishima and won't bother with Sun and Steel.
>implying evpsych isn't real
I mean it's often taken to retarded and unsupported conclusions, but it (and the general heredity of behaviors) is a real phenomenon.
The two statement you're replying to are perfectly compatible and consistent.
>I've read every word Camus wrote It's like Sisyphus; it's the struggle that gives meaning and happiness.
I know you're baiting, but in the real world - in society - people can see through our genetic markers and see us as a person instead of just one or two traits. Someone taller is not necessarily going to get the job over someone shorter, someone prettier not necessarily going to get the job over someone uglier, etc.
Yes exactly: But struggle only makes sense in regard to that which we can change.I've said repeatedly that I'm not against struggle and competition. I'm against that competition being predicated on things we can;t change. I see men on this board suicidal over height, face, frame and so on, and I'm arguing for a push to recognize this kind of attitude as toxic. There's a better game to be played that doesn't leave 90% of men on the fucking sidelines. I know my Camus user.
Try telling this to this board on a normal day.
Why did OP think that a board motivated by ruthless bullying would buy into social justice?
>bait or stupidity. You decide.
>There's a better game to be played I think that's where you and I differ. I think you are overly focused on social constructivism and critique. Rather I (and I would include the aggregate Veeky Forums here as well) would argue that a Stoic or Buddhist acceptance is more productive, and a better way of experiencing happiness in a chaotic world.
I thought it was worth a try. Whatever, I'm off to do nofap, eat some onions, read some japanese pseudo intellectual crap and cope with being a manlet and facelet. Gods speed losers
OK now we're getting somwhere. That's a fair response, but I'd point to the massive levels of suicide in young males, the chronic depression and anxiety in society, and I'd say it clearly isn't working for most young men.
>calls us losers after admitting he's a manlet and facelet
> failing to detect obvious sarcasm
>failing to detect obvious sarcasm
I don't really think most young men are either seriously committed to fitness or stoics. I think those attitudes are overrepresented here.
I think much of Veeky Forums's angst comes from the perception that they were lied to: that physical beauty didn't matter, etc, et al. I think that's where the Chad pathology comes from, but I think that angst turns into acceptance.
>Well, if looks and physique matter, I will take it upon myself to improve those qualities.
Because everyone who thinks it should NOT be that way and that there could ever be a society where it isn't that way is just mentally disabled. You calling basic principles "toxic masculinity" bad isn't going to make it bad. People like other attractive people and you will never change that nor should you.
>if we can change the game to make it less crushing to the vast majority of men, why would we not do that?
The 'vast majority' of men would throw you under the bus when it comes to women or money. That's what you're talking about right?
The vast majority of men would fuck your girlfriend given half a chance. Men who pray on women in relationships, temporary long term relationships, spread rumours and lies to defame you etc... Laugh all you want about 'emotional tampons' but they have an angle you don't see. It's a different game they play to the honest attract a single with your positive traits.
You have to have enough personal, social and financial clout for that not to happen.
I dumped my first long term girlfriend for cheating after an argument and I was away for 2 weeks and she was fucked a complete loser who was supposedly a friend of mine. She hid it from me for a long time, but as soon as I found out, she was done! He did a vanishing act, maybe fear.
You have to follow through on stuff like that. Anyone who knows either of us, men and women, know I wont stand for that shit even if I was partially to blame for it happening. But if it never happened who would know I would follow through ending the relationship... Those actions count. I saw him a few years later, a few people there knew what happened. Did I knock him no. I have something to lose. I'd like to, I could have. If I had 'less to lose' I might have. I enjoyed watching him shit himself and feel uneasy though.
It's bad for him to, he never got a job with his degree, I could and would have put him into a position where he could make a real wage doing what he's trained to do. But instead he now (8 years on) works in a callcentre or unemployed. Well worth a fuck with a girl who wouldn't date him after she was dumped. She might never make that mistake again, who knows. She actually did though.
Are these the men were talking about making 'it' easier for?
I think you're operating under the assumption that these genetic markers are socially determined, whereas there is in reality a strong biological drive for it
You're a cucked pilltard
It's the same with money and anything else. You have to acknowledge your limitations and do your best accordingly.
You might have 2 great business opportunities but on the cash to do 1 properly. There more choices to me made than it first appears. I mean even competing against someone with capital, if they don't know how to use it they will very quickly lose access to it. Then ones who 'had it handed to them' at least managed to hold on to it... and in many cases may still have done better than you even if they had less than you to begin with. Pick one of the two business and do it right, do both cheaply or go buy a sports car with the money you have and don't do either and wait for an even better opportunity.
How many genetically limited athletes become GREAT coaches. Absolutely nothing you can do to compete if you're a foot too short. They probably are great coaches because they had to come up with solutions to beat guys a foot taller than them even if it was futile.
I respond to slowly to these things. By the time I post the topic is elsewhere.
I never step aside for men anymore when it comes to women or business for that matter. That was a mistake I used to make, many men when they don't stand a chance at competing head on will emotionally manipulate you be it, practically begging saying he really likes her, or telling you she's known for having a reputation or something.
God knows how many losers owe me money over the years. Can't afford anymore drinks at the pub half way into the night, can I lend 20 til next payday etc... Can I borrow this, can you help with that.
Because the nature of the world can't be changed. Bitch and complain as much as you want, you won't be able to change thousands of years of the psychological conditioning created by evolution. You're like the idiots who thought communism would solve problems when it just changes the ruling class and puts everyone in greater despair, but with no possibility of improvement. If you want to be a subpar piece of shit, suit yourself, I'm aiming for the 1%, any other answer is delusion.