The sun doesn't rise at dusk. It rises after the long night.
Welcome to Dawnborn, folks. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Jade Ripley, with Dreamscarred Press. For awhile now we've been asked when we're going to make our own RPG system, and what it'd be like. Here it is, ladies and gentlemen, starting up for an early public alpha.
You can find the initial playtest packet here: dreamscarred.com
There's gonna be an info dump in my next post here, bear with me!
> Who's Dreamscarred Press?
Dreamscarred Press made its name publishing third-party content compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. You may remember us from such conversions as psionics, or Path of War. Now we're branching out into making our own system.
> How long will playtesting go on for?
Until the damn thing is done. We did testing for more than two years on Path of War: Expanded and that was just a supplement. We want this to be done /right/, and that means treating it with patience.
> What's the game about?
You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.
> These mechanics look a lot like Mutants and Masterminds
Yep. Our mechanical base is in the OGL content for Mutants and Masterminds, but that's just so we can get a working pitch going. Right now potentially ANYTHING is up for change - ability scores (number and function), powers, skills, how EXP works, literally just about anything except the pitch for the setting is up for critique and alteration.
> Who's heading this up?
The original pitch for Dawnborn was done by Andreas Ronnqvist. Our mechanics lead is Matt Meideiros; I'm our worldbuilding lead. I'll also probably be the guy tossing your feedback to internal and asking you to expand on your critique.
I'm on deck to field further questions, comments, feedback, and discussion. Strap yourselves in, folks, we're in for the long haul - and thanks for stoppin' by.
Neat. Gonna check it out.
So is this DSP's take on Exalted or Godbound?
Fine, I'll buy that it's better than Exalted 3e. Not a high bar.
But why should I play this over Godbound if I want fantasy superheroes making a dark world a better place?
>parahumans
Hate to point it out, but Worm already has that term as a big thing. Could cause some issues. Unless that's already been handled?
Anyways, looks neat. Curious to see where it goes.
Can't speak to Godbound, as I'm fairly unfamiliar with it. The goal with Dawnborn is to keep things intuitive without losing out on the customization needed to make your own hero; in terms of the wider setting and tone, Dawnborn embraces elements of Bronze Age heroism, where mighty heroes don't just defend society, they create and define it. We're hoping to get the Dominion rules ready for the next packet release so we can show some of those elements (and also get our numbers checked).
I don't believe it'll be troublesome but it's also not used in the setting itself; they're the Dawnborn. I need /some/ way of talking about one of the two major inspiring genres for the thing!
>Bronze Age heroism, where mighty heroes don't just defend society, they create and define it
>Dominion rules
>d20
>darkness shrouds the land, but then these heroes arise!
In direct competition with Godbound, then. Good luck.
Oh wow, this isn't just Exalted/Godbound, it's Mutants & Masterminds too. Great job aping its rules.
Christ, this is a Frankenstein's monster.
If y'say so. We'll have to check it out.
So hold up, why would I play this and not just use M&M 3e in an Exalted/Godbound setting?
You guys LITERALLY have the same fucking stats as M&M.
We're aware. This is, again, the early, eaaaaaaarly alpha. M&M is a starting point from which we intend to refine our mechanics. Matt's aware of a lot of its flaws but more eyes on the numbers can't hurt.
Essentially, given the choice between flailing at it and then finding out we fucked something up, or starting from Step Zero and working with our audience along the way, we chose to start from Step Zero, as we have before with our playtests.
You realize we're gonna tear the mechanics to shreds for you right?
Time to get to work.
Does it's got what fantasy crave?
Advertising is against the rules, fuck off
>You realize we're gonna tear the mechanics to shreds for you right?
Anything you'll be complaining about is basically just what's already a problem with M&M 3e, sooooooooooooooo...
point...
can we complain anyways?
Alright. Since this is very early in development, I'm gonna toss out three things that I feel all super systems should include, but few actually do in a reasonable manner.
The first one is Minionmancy. You can tell a lot about a game system by how it treats characters that are cohorts, companions, and creatures under the command of the player character. I'm not just talking about having the option either; I'm talking about specialization. Some players enjoy the idea of their character being relatively weak despite being in command of something fierce and powerful. Command of beasts, building robots, summoning demons, that sort of thing.
Second option should be shapeshifters. A lot of supers games, or even things that are supers-lite like FATE drop the ball entirely on this. Transformation is a serious part of the Superheroidea, with a lot of heroes relying on it entirely; classic example being werewolves and some vampires, but also heroes like Martian Manhunter.
And Third, Item creation. It has to matter without being overwhelming if focused on. This is important, because people like making shit and using the shit they make.
So basically what you're telling me is, the much-vaunted new system is not, in fact, a new system, but an old system with a new setting.
I mean, I don't really know what I expected from DSP, but I don't know why this wasn't it.
>M&M is a starting point from which we intend to refine our mechanics. Matt's aware of a lot of its flaws but more eyes on the numbers can't hurt.
Isn't it a little skeevy to go, "Yeah, this is a game we're going to ask you to give us dollah dollah for. But we'll just use M&M as a base, get you to rip M&M to shreds, house rule M&M based on your suggestions, and then slap a price tag on it"?
Please do. Again, M&M is our starting point for this, and while our mechanics team has an idea of where its weak points are more perspectives are always both welcome and appreciated so we can move in a useful direction.
I mean, we didn't come to Veeky Forums to do this on accident, y'all've torn our mechanics up before.
So you want everyone else to do the work?
It's not really a new setting.
It's Mutants & Masterminds 3e for system + Exalted/Godbound for setting.
Still need an answer on the second part.
Anyways, yeah, with M&M right now... I'm not really sure what we're supposed to say, here.
>this isn't a new system
to start, though.
So, at least... Exactly where do you want to go from here, what are you hoping to do, and why M&M3 right now?
Replace M&M with 3.5 and you're literally describing the birth of Pathfinder.
>You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.
gaaaaay
You know that minionmancy and alternate power sets are THE two most broken-ass shit rules in M&M 3e, right?
d20herosrd.com
d20herosrd.com
Summon and Alternate Effect are the two meccas of min-maxing in M&M 3e.
Yeah, I know. That'd be the point behind "few actually do in a reasonable manner"
Balancing it properly is important.
Eh, looking over the setting, it's not got a whole lot in common with Exalted outside of solar imagery, which is common everywhere.
Can't speak to Godbound, but the vibe I got here was much more 'Doc Savage' than the quasi-immortal god-kings that Exalted characters are by default.
By the time we're done I doubt the two systems are going to be meaningfully similar.
...No?
I'm not entirely certain how to parse the second part of your question, my friend.
We started with M&M 3 because it gives us a jumping-off point and involves math with which the mechanics team is already familiar and that is similar to math the rest of the team has experience with. One of the big goals at the moment is reigning in the insanity inherent to M&M3 without compromising that feeling of superhuman power. We're also looking to refine things with an eye to ease of use and making the system more intuitive for newer players, or players who don't get excited about mechanics in themselves.
>make our own RPG system
>it's the Pathfinder of Mutants & Masterminds 3e
Lemme get this straight.
DSP's first claim to fame was porting over psionics to Pathfinder.
Then porting over Tome of Battle.
Then porting over Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic (truenaming, binding).
And even some direct port of Bastards and Bloodlines.
NOW, you're heartbreakering Mutants & Masterminds for something that user is saying is similar to two other settings, Exalted and Godbound.
Does Dreamscarred Press have any originality left? At all?
Like, I know there's nothing original these days, but this isn't even trying to be original.
Whoops, wrong .gif.
This one's more accurate to DSP.
>By the time we're done I doubt the two systems are going to be meaningfully similar.
Isn't this what Paizo did with Pathfinder? Aren't you using basically the same birthing process?
>show old d20 system to playtesters
>get them to cry about it
>apply house rules
>sell it
Given anons pic I believe it was "does it have jets" or at least vehicles.
Exalted did, if that's any help. They were magic jets, but they did. I mean, carpets kinda suck compared to aerodynamic armored carpets with heavy weaponry
If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid, and Paizo proved it works.
Given Gareth's going to be the one working out the setting, I really don't see the problem; it has a similar premise to Godbound, but Gareth isn't the kind of writer that cribs settings. Bits and pieces, sure, but every writer does that, otherwise shit like Power Armor wouldn't be a thing.
user is throwing out base level claims without having actually read the work - for one thing, you'll notice the opening post literally said 'WE'RE USING M&M3E AS A PLACEHOLDER' and user started bitching well before he managed to actually realize things were based on M&M. So he's apparently not so great at reading.
As far as I can see, none of this even remotely feels like Exalted in terms of tone, theme, or style. And certainly not in power-level - the example characters are all, like, mid-tier X-Men level. They'd be blown to bits by Exalted characters.
The vibe I got from this is that it's a setting aimed at pulp heroism in a fantasy setting - not the high-powered over the top stuff Godbound or Exalted assumes as default, but 'you are an exceptional human being in a time that needs exceptional human beings to provide leadership'. It looks like one of the goals is providing robust rules to allow the PCs to direct and safeguard these communities, putting them in a position of power, but also responsibility.
I'm not sure the comparisons to Exalted are necessarily well-founded; I, again, can't speak to Godbound, as I'm wholly unfamiliar.
Having a jumping-off point ain't a bad thing, user, and I'd rather be up-front about it.
As someone who was part of the initial beta for Pathfinder...let's say it contains a lot of examples of things we'd like to avoid doing.
If we can find an intuitive way to handle it I don't think they're necessarily off the table. Vehicle/mount rules tend to be a /bitch/, though.
Godbound has jets and mechas too. 10 full pages of them.
Godbound: BTFOing Dawnborn since August 2016.
>user started bitching well before he managed to actually realize things were based on M&M. So he's apparently not so great at reading.
It's true though.
Why does this get to be called "a new system"?
Well let's start here then with the most basic of basics.
Let's assume for now you do want a unique system, and are just using a yardstick with M&M3 because it allows people to go crazy. That sound okay?
First: Let's look at the most basic part: the actual mechanical rolling system. I'll assume the setting can be taken care of as its own thing, but take heed from the failures of Exalted 2nd edition: a setting whose mechanics fight tooth and nail against the fluff every single step of the way ends up a shitass clusterfuck.
d20 system. Bad start there. It's well known for being intensely swingy (due to the basic "1d20+X" format) and requiring large amounts of bonuses and penalties to obtain a semblance of reliability.
Is THAT what you want? If not, before ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL, you gotta decide on an alternative.
>not the high-powered over the top stuff Godbound or Exalted assumes as default, but 'you are an exceptional human being in a time that needs exceptional human beings to provide leadership'
Contrary to popular belief, both Exalted 3e and Godbound only have characters perform *truly* ridiculous feats only during their later XP values.
A starting circle of Solar Exalted or a starting pantheon of Godbound will still struggle against a noble household's forces.
Because it's an alpha playtest using OGL mechanics for ease of use? Because it *does* introduce new gameplay concepts, even if several of them are currently unfinished? This is ground floor level shit, user. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Haven't played Godbound, but Solar Exalts are still massively powerful even in 3e. The only reason Solar Exalts struggle is because their threats are on a similar scale. Their ability to affect the mundane world is still way out of whack, they just exist in a world where that's not uncommon enough to make them top dog by default.
>if we can find an intuitive way to handle it
DO. SO.
Far too many system completely fall apart at the use of shit they should be built for (notably d20 modern using d20 mecha WHOOPS), and/or force one to just abstract and handwave the whole thing away.
Even those that *do* have them sometimes commit terrible idiocy, like Edge of the Empire's complete lack of growth in the dodging/defenses department for starship combat (in particular starfighters) while gunnery keeps going up and up and up... There's a reason my group just uses the tabletop X-Wing game instead for our star fights.
This guy has it.
DSP should ditch d20 totally. Hell, even Strike! might do what they want better.
Be...cause it's in alpha-level release right now?
Also:
>"Oh no, another game that uses the imagery of Dawn as a renewal of hope, that MUST mean it's cribbing from Exalted!"
I guess everything that came out prior to Exalted that relied on the imagery of "Dawn" also cribs from it, huh?
>I wanna be a pirate!
>uh, yeah but, we don't actually... pathfinder doesn't do ship things much at all, it just kinda gives a few statblocks and how to make them move
>... your point?
>well, uh, this campaign's completely in-land.
>you said we were on a chain of islands?
>not anymore
>Because it's an alpha playtest using OGL mechanics for ease of use?
That's not an excuse. You can have an alpha playtest with some semblance of original rules.
>Their ability to affect the mundane world is still way out of whack, they just exist in a world where that's not uncommon enough to make them top dog by default.
Except "Dawnborn" is already having the characters fight superpowered enemies from the start too. Just look at that adventure.
D20 math is something the entire team's familiar with, having worked with/fought with/suffered beneath is for years at a time apiece. You're right to call it swingy but I personally think it's salvageable.
That in mind, when I said anything's up for the chopping block I meant it.
And yeah, the fluff thing has bothered me in so many games. Just...just so many. Matt & I are making every effort to work closely so we can design around each other.
Tell me about these mutants and masterminds. I assume it's a d20 system? Do they have levels and hitpoints like D&D does? If a mook without powers shoot a mutant (or mastermind) in the face, will he die?
>Be...cause it's in alpha-level release right now?
Bitch, are you saying that every new RPG that's been alpha-released these days has been a direct port of an old system?
No. By the same token, not every new RPG that's being alpha-released uses a brand-new system either.
There are new mechanics in this playtest, primarily where the Dominion stuff is concerned.
Those rules are unfinished, yes - because *this is a playtest*. A playtest in the alpha stage. M&M3e is a placeholder. A yardstick. A 'well, we've rolled a d20 before, so we know what it looks like when d20 math is out of whack' tool of convenience.
Well, fundamentally dice are the basic engine of the game. They're how everything works and what it wheels on. If you're having it in your game you need to know why you're using d20 instead of any other system.
Ask yourself: Why should you use d20?
>There are new mechanics in this playtest, primarily where the Dominion stuff is concerned.
Except there ARE no Dominion rules, so it's literally just M&M 3e right now.
There actually are, if you read the sidebar. They're extremely loose: "this number represents this concept, this number represents this concept, these things can't happen until you clear away these conditions". Very basic, but they do exist.
Why not just publish a 3pp supplement for Mutants & Masterminds 3e and sell that?
DSP already sells 3pp supplements.
Roll 3d6. If you roll two or more 6s, that counts as a natural 20. If you roll two or more 1s, that counts as a natural 1.
There. You don't need to change anything about the math, and you've removed the players' need for special dice that not everyone can get.
How do you build a character in this? I'm not sure the book is complete on this. Could you give a run-through on how it would go?
Those are just progress trackers, not dominion management rules.
Adapt the 3d6 bellcurve variant, then. Most of your experience transfers, and the swinginess is largely abated.
>How do you build a character in this?
Or we could lay out WHY we're using dice and what for rather than just suggest? And what that does for the tone and feel of the game?
Why do I have to look in another system for this?
Because DSP are such hacks that everything they've been successful for is a port of preexisting d20 mechanics.
But they are part of the larger framework that will become the Dominion system, which appears to be a fairly core conceit of what the system wants the players to be doing.
So there's a fairly clear direction here as to how the system is going to differentiate itself over the course of its development.
Also, what is the Advantage list for? It's just given out of the blue with no context or explanation.
Is it similar to feats?
This seems quite terribly written so far.
That...is actually really fuckin' interesting. I'ma sling that at the numbers guy and see what kinda averages we get out of that.
's a fair question. We'll get back to you on that once Matt's awake. Do keep in mind, as I mentioned in the first couple of posts, that I'm the worldbuilding guy/team whip. In a lot of cases I'll be ferrying info back and forth.
CC rules ain't up and running yet; those are one of the chief places in M&M where the madness happens and we'd like to at least attempt to reign that in before we fire both barrels. There's some sample Dawnborn at the end of the packet.
/Hopefully/, character creation starts with a concept ("protective healer", "big guy that got bigger") and then you're able to spend points to bring that concept to life by fleshing out basic abilities & skills, then customizing your power set. I say hopefully 'cause, y'know, mistakes happen. Hence the alpha.
>Odds of a specific number coming up on a d20 = 0.05
>Odds of 2+ of the same number coming up on a 3d6 ≈ 0.060185186
So, you basically just removed content from M&M, renamed it, and showed it to the public as ORIGINAL CONTENT DONUT STEAL? Amazing, classic DSP.
It's explicitly NOT complete on character creation yet. That's explicitly something they're still working on. That's why example characters are provided.
>I'ma sling that at the numbers guy and see what kinda averages we get out of that.
This is literally just d20srd.org
Your average is 10.5 because that's how numbers work. You'll crit or fumble almost exactly as often as on a d20.
it's something you're familiar with but I also know for a fact that your familiarity with it is of the "gotta go out back and bash gophers with the shovel again mildred" variety.
Let's start with a real conceptual here:
What RANGE of numbers added to the actual capabilities of a character would you like to see?
Here's a bunch of examples of all sorts of rolling systems. Some you'll recognize, some I'm pulling out of my ass, some exist already and I don't know but I'll feel I came up with them until someone makes me feel dumb:
>Bob has 4 levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the aliens) and a +2 from his Perception stat. He rolls 4d6 (4 being his skill level), keeping the highest and getting +1 for every 6 after the first, and adds +2 to figure out his total.
>Bob has 4 skill levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the enlightenment). He rolls the standard 2d8 and adds +4, which with his roll of 4 and 6, gives him a total of 14.
>Bob has a +4 to attack and a specialization in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the geothermal energy). He rolls 1d12+4, getting a reroll if he rolls a 1 or 2 and only fumbling if the reroll is also a 1.
>Bob has a Might of 4 and 3 skill levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the clockwork gods). He rolls his 4d8s and keeps the 3 highest, dealing damage equal to however much he surpasses the target's defenses by
>Bob has 4 in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the starships), and an Accuracy stat of 5. He rolls 4d4 and counts each roll of 5 or lower as a success, because he's just that fucking good.
>Bob has +4 total to hit with Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the robots). He rolls 3d8, rerolling it due to basic proficiency if he does not like the result, and adds +4 to the two highest, for a total of 18. Good job bob.
>shilling an unrelated game in a shill thread this hard
Am I even mad? I'm legitimately not sure.
>The sun doesn't rise at dusk
No shit. This line sounds dumb as hell.
It's already got the shitposting of /pfg/ I feel at home already!
This may be the greatest post I've ever read in my life.
>forrest and his original material proving him again to be the only competent dsp writer
>shitposting
>pointing out that this isn't actually a new system
I want DSP shills to leave.
>Does Dreamscarred Press have any originality left? At all?
Implying that DSP ever had any originality in the first place.
Her, user, her. Don't be transphobic towards the best 3pp writer.
Well I had to do something to thank ye for the kineticist answer over there.
Just kidding. I've not had a single client in 4 hours and am just babbling until I inadvertently doze off.
Right, her. Point still stands.
Your ability to name character impresses me.
I must learn your secret.
For all the bitterness in this thread, isn't it actually justified to learn that a 'new system' from DSP... isn't really a new system?
new campaign setting more like
>not just using dsp materials and giving us a worthwhile setup
To be fair the DSP materials are pretty stuck in 3.PF. It's mostly just the fluff that could be reusable, but at that point may as well alter it for the setting too.
Not that some of the cool shit should go to waste...
>I mean, I don't really know what I expected from DSP, but I don't know why this wasn't it.
Pretty much everything they've done has been an adaptation of somebody else's work. Psionics, Path of War, they're just updates of systems that already existed. I don't know why you didn't expect this either.
Wouldn't they ideally want to kludge M&M 3e into compatibility with their Pathfinder products?
I'll admit, it'd be sick if we could have initiators in M&M.
So yeah. It's fine to take ideas from elsewhere, but let's at least make sure the basic rolling system has the feel and range you want out of your system.
More dice increase the range a lot, but also reliability.
Bigger dice increase the range a lot less at a time, but do very little for the reliability.
"Exploding Dice" systems open the results up to the skies, yet often only add very little to the actual average roll.
The other part of it is what you want "being good at something" to mean. Silhouette for example straight up gives you more d6s, but doesn't add them up (that's actually the first Bob up there) normally: The main advantage of skill in that system is a massive boost in reliability and decrease in fumbles - something the d20 system tends to get kinda stupid with since there's always a 5% chance of fucking up royally.
"Being good" at something could mean more successes, greater successes, a higher number, more numbers... there's so many ways...
>In addition, while you have different action-types you can perform (in any order) you cannot intersperse actions between one another unless you have an advantage that allows it.
Wording issue here: as it stands, this means I can't take a free action, then a move action, then a standard action, because that would be "interspersing" a move action in between a free and a standard action. It should say something like "You can't take one action while you are currently resolving another action." or the like.
Can I run this setting better in Strike!?
Going to Veeky Forums for feedback over a design draft is a terrible idea and I have not the slightest clue what made you guys at DSP (as much as I kind of like you) decide it was good for this.
Probably because it's one of several avenues for exactly this that they watch.
More or less this .
>*If an incapacitated target fails a resistance check against Damage they are “dying”. Next turn, success =
no longer dying but still stable. Failure=dead.
What kind of check is this? Toughness? What's the DC? The DC of the last attack to hit them? Plus, one chance to live or die is not very heroic...
Where else are they gonna go, a hugbox?
We might be insulting asspies, but we at least say it when there's something we don't like.
Christ, even 5e has three.
Noted, passed to Mechanics.
Definitely gonna be avoiding exploding dice. As much fun as they are at times, they're kinda...they're not /reliable/. And when it happens it doesn't always feel like the awesome event it should be, especially when you end up exploding on a check that feels less consequential (extended research, a stealth roll, etc).
>And when it happens it doesn't always feel like the awesome event it should be, especially when you end up exploding on a check that feels less consequential (extended research, a stealth roll, etc).
So what you're saying is, you want action points?
...Y'know, maybe. Thought hadn't crossed my mind but that idea or something similar wouldn't be a bad way to model those moments of heroic exertion, determination, or righteous fury.
I'm gonna be AFK for a bit. Matt may be on before I get back. Do have /some/ mercy on the poor man. Feel free to toss in questions or feedback in the meantime.
You mean M&M 3e's victory points?
One big annoyance is the tendency towards "per day" or "per adventure" of most systems action points/dice/etc.
how about instead something more of a 'momentum' set of boons, where the benefits or penalties are gained and lost towards one's next action; it can reset by encounter/scene.
This also gives you three 'states' to play with any luck-based things in: up, middle and down.
So, say a critical's main effect is whatever the weapon does on a critical AND some kind of boon towards your next action (so, for attacks, criticals are a bit less "mega-damage killshot" and a bit more "a great hit sets the poor fucker up for your next one too"). as long as you keep having above-average successes you keep in your upswing.
Likewise, a downswing (fumble) screws up your rhythm; your stay off-balance or otherwise impeded slightly as long as you keep continuing to fail by more than a certain margin (margin will depend on dice types).
This means you also get plenty of room for abilities that capitalize-on, reverse, counteract or otherwise affect your current luck status.