Ops & Tactics General

I am.

Legitimately, I want to hear people's complaints about the game. It's how I improve it. It's how it's turned from a D20 Clusterfuck to what it is now.

So when people say "Oh it sucks" I want them to point out specifically how, and if I agree, I change it.

I don't understand why it has the six core attributes, stat modifiers, masterwork weapons and all the other D&D baggage. It's the absolute last thing I want in a game focused on tactical shooting

>I don't understand why it has the six core attributes,

Well, it works. Should there be less? More? Do you have a sudgestion?

>stat modifiers,

Are you really asking why there are modifiers for various statistics?

>masterwork weapons

Because Some weapons are inherently more accurate than others?

>and all the other D&D baggage.

Again, I'm not seeing the actual problem or objection. Should it be changed because "D&D used some of these rules"?

> It's the absolute last thing I want in a game focused on tactical shooting

So..let me get this straight. Because some of the rules share(Vaugely, at that, since Combat got changed) with D&D, it's a bad tactical system?

Wait. I just began reading this, but I am already highly sceptical of something.

"When two or more multipliers apply, combine
them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding to the
value of the original multiplier."

So. What this means is if for example two multipliers with the value of 0.5 apply this adds up to a multiplier of 0.5+0.5=1.
Somehow I doubt this works as it was intended.

I am not sexually attracted to UZIs

> shitty d20 Modern ripoff
> with all the autism of the original game
> and none of its one or two redeeming attributes

Exactly WHY should ANYONE play this???

I have a question about how recoil works, does the recoil reduction you get from strength apply to the total CRP or does it only apply to the penalty from the caliber's recoil itself?

For example if I have a character with a recoil reduction modifier of 4 and I'm using a double tap with a CRP of 3 would the penalty end up as 0 or would it still be a -1?

Overly complicated rules bloat. It seems like this system is trying to do too much without clear direction or purpose, like it's trying to do everything just because it can rather than because it should. Just ask yourself what the is game about. Looking at it I expected a game about gunfighting and instead got class archetypes, careers and language groups.

Strip the game down to it's barest essentials and work in everything you NEED rather than working in everything. You don't need crafting tools, you don't need languages, you don't need a sodding RACE CREATION TABLE in a game that's supposedly about Tacticool Gunwank.

Less is more OP, less is more.

That's all stuff that got shoved in later. The core rule book has all the various other supplements that got added in later, while the modern magicka rulebook has all the fancy magic stuff.

Not him, but firstly, this is basically a (badly) reskinned D20 modern.

It's generally a problem when a system's mechanics don't accurately reflect or simulate what the conceit of the fiction is. For instance, D&D uses a class-based system because it's representative of social stratification in the eras it attempts to siumulate. That's why D20 modern wasn't very good; it's more difficult to pigeonhole individuals in less socially stratified cultures into a class system. That's why many modern setting RPGs are classless (nWoD, AFMBE, etc etc).

Secondly,
> Should it be changed because "D&D used some of these rules"
Some? Almost the entirety of the core mechanics (attributes, stat-based classes, professions as an afterthought) is lifted directly from d20 modern. This is just a more focused version of the d20 ultramodern firearms book.

So just write this as a d20 supplement. Or play Phoenix Command if you want actual gunwank

>magic
But seriously supplements are supplements for a reason. They are optional packages to expand a certain area of the game, shoving them all into a single rulebook is going to make a cluttered, overcomplicated mess with no real direction to speak of. Know what you want your game to be have it be that, don't shove all the other things in could be onto it without good reason.

Well, all the supplements rolled into the rulebooks are the ones that are relevant to that book, like the core rulebook has more tasers and less-than-lethal options and so on. While modern magicka is it's own seperate book with it's own supplements.

I can say the worst problem with this game is how health scales. A level 6 or 7 tough archetype character with a +4 con modifier can survive a max damage .50 BMG round and still have extended HP to spare. So low damage rounds start losing all effectiveness at high levels.

Well, you have to give the creator credit. He's very persistent. He's been told its shit for years and years, and yet he's still shilling it.

>it's representative of social stratification in the eras it attempts to siumulate
It's representative of the common character archetypes of most fantasy works, Elf and Dwarf were originally classes in their own right before race selection became a thing.

In modern settings archetypes become far less clearly defined (though even in D&D cracks start to show) and in so doing classless systems represent them far better.

Did you even read user's post?
>you got a lot of irrelevant shit in there
>well, everything in the book is relevant
The numba one complaint of this system is rules bloat.
But keep ignoring the feedback, cupcake.

Nobody survives a .50 cal - i thought this was a gunwank game?

It sorta kinda is, .50 BMG does a total of 80 damage (10d8) but a level 7 tough character with a con modifier of +4 has a total of 86 extended HP and 23 core HP. This pretty much invalidates everything that isn't at least .308 (5d6) and completely ruins any common handgun cartridge like 9mm (2d6) .40S&W (3d4) .45 ACP (3d4+2) and 10mm Auto (2d6+4) considering it takes a little under 8 shots of hitting for full damage to take them to zero Extended HP.

hell even common rifle cartridges aren't enough .223/5.56 at 5d4, 5.45 at 4d4 and 7.62x39 4d6+2 aren't even that bad when considering tough also gets a damage reduction equal to half his level.

Bleed damage.

Any character that takes that much ddmage will bleed to death in 1 round.

Nope. That's correct.

It would be 0.

Thst was one of the books I wrote. Its not done yet, hence still in beta.

OaTs is the full, comprehensive RPG. SQuats will be the "run and gun" RPG. Simple and focused.

Doesn't bleeding only occur when you take core HP damage? A level 7 tough character won't even take core HP damage from the hit as I pointed out.

Kinda true, but that is an extreme example.

But smaller rounds do have this issue anyway.

There is a "classless" system. The unarchetype. You basically build what you want.

Hmn. You are correct. I'll change that so that its any damage.

Thanks.

1d3 bleed per 3 points of damage you take, even to extended hit points? Isn't that a bit overkill? It doesn't have to be THAT realistic.

He isn't the creator, I am.

And I am listening.

That was my whole reason for splitting off the books, as mentioned before.

I wanted a full comprehensive RPG, not a run and GUn so I wrote oats the way it is. One man's bloat is another man's features and options.

For those of you that just want to run and gun, I am writing the simplified quick action tactics system.

A bunch of junk got cut that one user complained about.

Wear armor. Armor stops bleed damage from happening.

Alright. I guess I'll see how it works when I actually get into a game.

My issue was bleed damage was incredibly narrow. If you're draining core HP, you probably won't have enough time to actually use any medical supplies to stop the bleeding.

The problem isn't that there's too many features. The problem is that most of those features are useless bloat, much of it needing to be torn out entirely and rewritten. Especially since such fundamental things as damage from bullets are broken because for some reason you insist on trying to use a game that is famous for being bad at handling guns as the base for your game about guns. Throw out crafting, throw out races, throw out the entire feat system, and fix the actual important parts of your game before trying to make a whole system.

I thought it was mostly for critical hits. You know, when you take core damage but still have extended HP to bleed off.

Well, if you get hit by a crit, you're not very likely to survive considering most people will have somewhere between 12 and 19 core HP, a crit from a rifle round will probably put you to zero immediately, then bleed damage will take off the last little bits of health you have.

>Especially since such fundamental things as damage from bullets are broken because for some reason you insist on trying to use a game that is famous for being bad at handling guns as the base for your game about guns.

I rewrote the combat system entirely, and guns.

>Throw out crafting, throw out races, throw out the entire feat system

Races only pop up in modern magika, crafting...is actually pretty important in the game(but was removed for squats).

And what's wrong with feats?

Alright, that makes sense. Like I said, I'm gonna have to try and play it before I can pass judgement.

Feats are bad because feats are in DnD and DnD is bad.

You know, moron logic.

Another thing I noticed with the system, it seems like the game falls into the same trap as Jagged Alliance, where it's always better to double tap or do a three round burst than it is to go for a single shot.

The extra damage die far outweighs the minor penalties caused by attempting the burst, especially if you add things that boost your multi-shot attack rolls and have a decent strength score.

Depends on both your strength and the caliber you're using. Not everyone's gonna have super-high strength and the appropriate feat.

Yes I know you mentioned both of those things but still. It's not for every character.

Well, if you take Favored Caliber most rounds will have a CRP of 1, 2 for exceptionally high recoil and some low recoil rounds have a CRP of 0. So at the cost of a single feat I can pretty much ignore the double tap penalty for 5.56.

How many people are gonna take favored caliber, really?

Apparently more than I thought, because I didn't even figure that feat into any of my character concepts. I prefer to keep myself more flexible when it comes to weapon selection than to constrain myself to one specific CALIBER.

Yeah I know "it's not really constraining". It kind of is, it costs you a feat you could use for something else.

>That's why D20 modern wasn't very good; it's more difficult to pigeonhole individuals in less socially stratified cultures into a class system. That's why many modern setting RPGs are classless (nWoD, AFMBE, etc etc).

Personally, I think the classes, sloppy design aside (the fast hero was too good, tough sucked), were conceptually quite excellent, since they represented very broad areas of expertise and were designed to be multiclassed.

What made D20 Modern suck went way, way deeper than the class design.

To each their own I guess, I prefer sticking with a set of particular weapons myself then constantly switching. That +1 bonus and 1/3 recoil penalty is pretty good.

This. D20 modern had a host of issues.

Is that Baroness?

And then we have the plasma cannon system.
advanced arms has some good shit in it.

More bloat. None needs plasma rifles.

I personally prefer Modern Magicka, mostly because contemporary fantasy makes me hard as diamonds.

The feat system in this game is probably one of the worst offenders of what made D&D bad. The requirement of specializing incredibly hard or taking a number of feats just for basic competency in weapons that have very little difference.

Yeah sure, requirement. No feat for simple weapons and one feat for firearms. Oh shit how terrible.

You don't need to take multiple feats for basic competency.

Personal firearms proficiency is all you need to be proficient at ALL personal firearms.

That's exactly what I said.

I'm on a phone. I didn't see your post.

Shit loads slow.

how does your system of choice handle gun recoil if it does at all?

How about you read it?

>Disclaimer: I've run an OaTs game that lasted a bit over a year, hang out in SSB's channel and give him rules feedback/suggestions, and catch his typos. So many typos

I flat-out disagree that crafting rules are 'bloat' in an rpg system unless it's one not meant to include any noncombat aspects. Aka a wargame. This isn't a wargame, even if you can run it like one.

You and I both know the unarchetype is cludgy af. Don't call that the classless alternative, just double down on the archetypes being aptitude sets more than they are classes.

This has been my biggest complaint with the system for a very long time, honestly, I just never got around to putting up numbers to shove in SSB's face. Changing bleed damage so heavily is a hell of a change, and just might make high-level Toughs actually hurt from things.
Multi-shot attack bonuses do stack up really fucking quick, yeah

There are a fuckload of feats, but characters also get a pretty large amount of them as they advance. Feats in this system are pretty damn powerful though, yeah

Recoil is based on bullet caliber and what kind of attack you're making (single shots vs full retard, etc). This penalty is mitigated by your strength score.

Not even just the multi-shot bonuses but the initial penalty itself is likely to be low, especially for combat oriented character or if someone's using favored caliber.

So when can we expect the cut down version you've been talking about?

I've played in several oats games so far, and I have some feedback for the thread that you may want to chew on for thought.

-The gunplay is actually incredibly intricate, and more importantly, balanced against things like moving to gain defense(which i did not know about), cp discounts from weapons, armor-vs-hp.
It may seem tactical, but characters actually have a lot of shields against harm. Armor, cover, movement, defense, core hp, and then finally your actual hp. You have less than SOME OTHER GAMES, but you can stretch it a lot more - and more importantly, you actually ahve control over how to stretch it. tactics actually matter.

The fallout style action system. Its excellent. Deciding exactly how far you want to move, how many attacks to make - once you get used to it, its exceptionally intricate. Fuck move standard minor, this is where its at.

Versatility. It works for historic, victorian, medieval, modern, and near-future cyberpunk adventures equally.

Feedback. You can raise issues and they get fixed. Feats were a good example - its not incredibly apparent because feats are feats at a glance, but there was a balance pass to make sure each feat was worth taking, and the opportunity cost was roughly the same bang for buck wise.
This was also the patch that 'hmn, people don't have enough feats happened, so i'm doubling/half againing it so you can actually make people not statblocks'

At a guess.... no skills, item, clothes, or feats. Just shoot and gun.
you know, boring wargame with no character.

When its done.

I was going to release it as a test thing, but listening to the complaints here, I'm gonna cut it down even further.

>boring wargame

Pretty much. There's not much left in here but guns, knives and simple stuff.

I'd rather have the standard OaTs personally but I had to ask.

>cutting down ops and tactics
Christ how much are you planning on removing? The generic guns thing already cuts most the reason for playing the game, cutting it further would be like making all the guns in Phoenix Command work the same.

Most skills, all six archetypes(replacreplacing it with generic character), occupations, wisdom, intelligence, charisma and everything connected to them, all non simple weapons, half simple weapons, most non ballistic ranged weapons, poisons, vehicles..and vehicle combat.

Just to name a few things.

Oh, and this is for SQUATS, I'm leaving ops and tactics intact.

/k/ and Veeky Forums here, will this system allow me to operate operationally?

Exceptionally well.

are you operator enough for operating?

Yas.

Imo, yeah. But how do you want to go about your operational operations?

I once operated so hard I the whole thing

Is it high speed low drag operating? Or I was a truck driver for KBR and now think I am a marine?

Middle-East shooting hajis from the back of a Ford F250 with three other guys who should probably be locked up as we scream through a bombed out highway trying to protect an idiotic government official who's self worth is overly inflated by the 5 mine security detail that has to keep him alive.

>the 5 mine security
the 5 man

Vehicle rules are a bit wonky to be honest but it's certainly doable. The driver will spend some of his time units to move the vehicles, the passengers can keep their time units ready to shoot anybody that pops up, so on and so forth.

It's been a while since I last counted, but I think the game has roughly 1,100 unique firearms, you have the ability to MOLLE the fuck out of everything, put railz on all your guns and make them tacticool as fuck and dress up like an operator. I'd say the game is pretty opr8r

Depends on the gm. So both? The game has no setting. Just rules for combat and residuals that are necessary.

There's a stable version on the website and blog(Google the name)

Speaking of wonky rules, I noticed that poisons are pretty weak as well. From what I get from the rules as written they only affect a character twice, once when initally exposed, then a minute after exposure. It seems a bit weird that VX Nerve gas can be mostly ignored with a good roll.

Yeah, though diseases you have to roll the save every day until you shake it off.

I didn't want poisons to be bullshit, like in SR.

Well there's a difference between "Bullshit" and "Pointless" like pointed out diseases are really scary and can kill you if you can't make the saves, but most poisons won't kill a character even if they roll max dice on the only two damages that occur.

I'll take a look at that and see what I can come up with.

Assuming a constitution of 10, there's...
A 62.5% chance of dying from Cyanide or VX
A 15.63% chance of dying from Mustard Gas or Sarin
and no other poisons can kill an average human outright from just constitution damage.
Now, the gasses you might want to account for the fact that gas attacks will linger and suffer multiple exposures, but still. Having the secondary proc again every minute or even something like five minutes, or just having a few more steps of secondary damage and then nothing more, I dunno

>62.5% chance of dieing after inhaling VX
Wow holy shit, poison damage really needs to be reworked.

Mind you, this is just from a single sniff. If you were taking the primary damage every round from being in a cloud of it you'd be down in less than half a minute. But yeah, some rethinking is merited.

Yeah, taking primary damage every round for inhaled gases makes more sense and makes things far more lethal, but injected and ingested poisons get fucked because the rules don't mention anything for repeated damages for any of the different types.

Now that I'm home and am sitting at a proper Desk, I can take a look at this

1. Yes I should mention that it's per exposure.
2. I'll take a serious look at it and see what I can do. I'll probably end up upping the damages.

What I say you do is make it so that each round in an inhaled gas is a single exposure, so they take multiple primary damages if they spend a few rounds in the gas, maybe have it que up more and more secondary damages for every round.

For ingested and injected poisons I'd say you do something similar to explosives and have a certain amount for each poison be a single exposure, going over this amount will hit a character with several primary damages at once and have their secondary damages que up, but they take longer to kick into effect, say every ten minutes instead of a single minute.

That seems like it would kinda slow the game down.

What I did is I stacked secondary damages. Also if you pass, you take half, if you fail, you take all of it.

And secondary can be hit multiple times.

Why not playing GURPS High Tech + Tactical Shooting instead?
Or Twilight 2000, preferably 2e?
Or Savage?

Or any other fucking system that isn't just badly made cheap reskin of d20 Modern?

I'm actually in a Twilight 2000 game right now. It's spiffy enough, though it's pretty heavily shaped by its particular setting. Intersting, but a few clunky points.
Savage Worlds is too light for my tastes, though it certainly could do the job yes.
I'm just in love with the combat point system and everything they entail for combat, as well as all the equipment options but mostly the knock-on effect that partitioning a character's turn out into discrete units of time has.
That's why for me, at least.

Why don't you shut the fuck up and read the book so you can find out about all the neat ways it's NOT like d20 Modern?

...

Why not just use GURPS? You can try to fix d20 Modern all you want but at its core it's a bad system. I mean you've already replaced the dice mechanic with 3d6 instead of d20 so at this point you might as well go whole hog and use GURPS.

>pretending it's not d20 Modern
When this meme will finally end?