MTG Modern General

Magic: The Gathering Modern General
(competitive discussion)

Decklists:
>mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper

Primers:
>mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern

Kaladesh card image gallery (enemy fastlands):
>mythicspoiler.com/kld/index.html

Thread question: What are your thoughts on Grim Flayer? Where does it belong? Is it really good enough for Abzan and/or Jund?

>Copied from the last thread

It's fine but I can't believe the shithulks are all getting them. Only green and white are worth the paper they'll be printed on. They're gonna put one money reprint to try and spur pack sales, with no guarantees once the novelty wears off.

I don't mind that they exist. I think if people with too much money to spend that want to foil out their decks have one more money sink to shoot for, by all means. If I get the chance to pull one in a draft, I like it. That said, their justifications in the article are bullshit. Standard will only be affected if these masterpieces actually make them sell that many more packs to have an oversupply of new cards so secondary market prices are dirt cheap (they have the metrics internally from the experiment with nu-zendikar and subsequently nu-innistrad), and the "we are giving you reprints!" Is bullshit too because the people who want reprints are looking for more supply and reduced prices, not a handful of foil mythic rarity reprints that will probably only drive up demand and costs will still remain absurd if expeditions are any indication.

The real issue here is the dude who will pull mana crypt and slaughter the limited grand prix due to the highest RNG variance mtg has ever seen.

Fits in abzan perfectly.

Works in a jund shell, but the deck he fits in is usually a little different than the traditional jund build. Generally, they dont run bobs and might have an extra 4 drop main or something like that.

Gosh, is the only way to make an absolutely not terrible Werewolf deck to run Collected Company in it?

If you want to make a good deck, prepare to run good cards. The reason a werewolf deck will still suck is because your collected company won't get you anything that matters. Sorry.

Is there a non-terrible standard werewolf deck? No. Was there a good werewolf deck back in Innistrad times? No. Then tell me user: can you make a good werewolf deck?

Bobby Flay is a powerhouse. In a Jund/Abzan shell he's a Tarmogoyf with trample that Scrys and provides card advantage. There's no doubt in my mind that Flayer will be a mainstay in that archtype for a long time.

>that Scrys and provides card advantage
>card advantage

?????

I guess binning Lingering Souls is card advantage.

Now that I've seen the actual list of masterpieces, they very might well sell the set.

They're definitely pulling out all the stops with this one, this lineup looks better than any FTV Ive ever seen.

How's BW tokens with no 'blossom for a budget deck? Planning on starting with Modern, and it seems to be the strongest deck to build on a limited budget. The only actually expensive things are the Paths, Discard spells and a bit of the manabase (though BW is not bad, only Abzan has real overlap with it).

The deck is bad with BB. It will be atrocious without

You'd need to figure out an adequate substitute for it b/c bitterblossom is kind of the core of the deck

It's a really weak and inconsistent deck even without a budget holding it back. If you can't afford BB just go for another deck

Don't compare it to FtV, it's literally the same plan as the Expeditions were. The Gearhulks are just getting slots the same way the BfZ lands did.

BFZ might've had some good Expeditions, doesn't make it worth buying packs. Don't let this shit sell a set for you. Pretty as it is.
Paths are needed in almost every white deck. They're definitely worth it. Same with Thoughtseize for black. Inquisition of Kozileks are getting printed to demand in Conspiracy2, so those might drop even further than they have.
If you can't afford the Blossoms, just shitbrew with what staples you have. Honestly put down for the manabase first though.

How come? Besides eating an Anger to the face, it has some good enough tools. Just the fact that it's great against spot removal and packs a ton of fliers should give it an advantage. Is the deck catching hate from other archetypes currently?

I am not really looking for a T1 deck. T2 on a budget is enough, and I do feel Tokens should be T2 as is.

I was intending on cutting the blossoms for Honor of the Pure and Secure the Wastes. Also, I might be mistaken but ain't Lingering Souls more vital? 4 fliers for 5 mana in 2 payments is fine. Secure the Wastes ain't that mana-efficient and does not generate fliers, but it's instant and versatile.

The Path/Discard suite is fine since it transfers to many other decks, I wouldn't feel bad acquiring them. The manabase is a bit odd though since few decks use it, but oh well, sometimes you gotta compromise.

You don't what tiers are.
You don't know anything about the meta.

We're telling you it's bad but you're not listening. Good day.

>and I do feel Tokens should be T2 as is.

what the fuck does that mean?

>T2 on a budget is enough, and I do feel Tokens should be T2 as is.

Tiers are based on usage only, not on strength like fighting games would be for example. Blame OP, he forgot to post tiers and how they work.

The deck will not meet your expectations. BW tokens is not even a T3 deck. You will not have a good time with it. You are a retard.

Knowing WHY it's bad is more valuable than knowing it's bad. This seems like a deck that can reach top 32 at big events (with blossom though, probably), fun to boot and I don't see any similar decks in the format. So yeah.

Fair, I will be more careful with the use of the term from now on.

>This seems like a deck that can reach top 32 at big events
Well it can't. Where are you getting this info? Pure speculation from your zero experience with the format?

I wouldn't be that harsh, it could win an FNM easily and I figure that's where he's going to start, so it's not an awful choice.

>Fair, I will be more careful with the use of the term from now on.
It's not a big deal. It happens just about every other thread.

Why? What are the weaknesses of the deck as far as matchups are concerned? How can SB improve it? Is it catching hate from other decks?

Sure, I might be inexperienced with the format, but a deck that attacks in the air with lots of small dudes in efficient cards and anthem effects, plus many ways to recover life, seems like a strong choice if you can pilot it well. Its only glaring weakness that I can observe is, really, wraths. Even pings start to get ineffective once you land Intangible Virtue. And decks seem to be running less enchantment removal these days.

Is Suicide Zoo just a meme? From my limited testing it feels real.

Ok, I'll explain it to you in a nice way. Here's your deck...
>Small efficient flyers, Bitterblossom as a value engine, Path to Exile, and discard.

just doesn't match up well against...

>Bolting your face until dead
>Tarmogoyf + Dark Confidant
>A big dumb gay robot shitting on your board turn 3.
>A big dumb green titan killing you on turn 3
>A deck that plays entirely from its graveyard and can give a fuck about discard and 1/1 flyers.

In the context of modern, BW Tokens is too fair of a deck to compete against the stronger strategies. The overwhelming majority of your matches will be unfavorable for you, so the deck is considered not viable.

It's real because answers in Modern are so bad that a joke deck like that can get away with it.

But you don't just "start" with BW tokens. The only thing that it can be converted to is Junk. And believe me you will want to convert it after a while. It's a huge waste of money to "start" with BW tokens.

I'm not denying it's a bad deck because it is. But jund is actually a favorable MU for it and you've got access to some nice hate because you're running white.

>Don't let this shit sell a set for you

I know better, the most packs of this shit I'll be opening are in limited and I'll hope for a Sol Ring. The dudes in my LGS Facebook group are circlejerking it as mtgs saviour though. Silly.

Knowing WHY it's bad is more valuable than knowing it's bad.
BW Tokens is considered weak because you're playing extremely fair magic in a format dominated by unfair decks. BW Tokens is fair while lacking the raw power of Jund or Abzan.

> This seems like a deck that can reach top 32 at big events (with blossom though, probably), fun to boot and I don't see any similar decks in the format. The deck has good matchups against Affinity and Jund, though, but idk about the other T1 decks.
It has top 32'd GPs before. That's meaningless though.

>Jund
>Hate

Wtf is a hate card for Jund? Pathing a tarmogoyf isn't hate, its stopping the bleeding. Are you talking about RIP? Turning off all of your own Lingering souls just so you can still get buttfucked by Dark Confidant seems like a great idea.

I'm not typing a whole novel for your retarded ass so in short:
- too little early game interaction against zoo/merfolk/infect/elves/etc.
-too slow a clock against combo
-spectral requires www on T3, you will have to fetch>shock way more often than you're comfortable with that added with TS and BB means you will hurt yourself a lot for a 2 color deck.

>The deck has good matchups against Affinity and Jund, though, but idk about the other T1 decks.
Idk why this is greentexted.

Those are 2 separate points of mine. It has a positive MU against jund AND it has access to hate against other decks.

Why are you asking if you're already convinced it's good and we're wrong?

>Wtf is a hate card for Jund?

>Hey lets reprint cards that desperately need a reprint!
>Except lets make them rarer than mythic rares to not affect their prices at all!

>Wtf is a hate card for Jund?
Urza's Tower, Power Plant and Mine, t2 Blood Moon off Mox Opal or Springleaf Drum.

>Hey lets reprint cards that desperately need a reprint!
It's more like
>hey let's make the legacy and edh beards pay for new players' decks for the shittiest constructed format

Once again proving that Modern is a format of matchups and silver bullets.

But, quoting the post above:

The decks that seem to buttfuck BW are Tron, Breach and Dredge. But does Jund/Abzan has a better MU against them? Jund has Crumble vs. Tron, and both have Decay vs. Amulet, but besides that, the matchups seem bad for Jund/Abzan and BW alike.

Against Burn, you are a white deck. Against Jund/Abzan, Lili will be a non-issue, they can't block you, their removal is not efficient while yours is. Against Dredge, if RIP/Relic ain't enough, nothing would be. Tron and Breach are fucked up but that's the price to pay, can't win them all.

And yea, I might be wrong, but discussing and learning is good.

Legacy is even worse you uninformed meme spouter.

Can't say no to 60-70% winrate and free boosters though.

Legacy is a far better format, but you can keep playing memerange the format if you want.

The number of times Ive lost with a 1 turn clock against this motherfucker coming off the top.

You always know when it happens, because they look all sad that they're gonna lose next turn, they draw, pause, and just smile. Motherfucker.

Saying modern is all midrange is like saying legacy is all combo. Both are retarded.

>both have Decay vs. Amulet
Stop looking at year old sources. Amulet hasn't been a deck for a while now.

The difference is that Modern's best deck IS midrange, while Legacy's best deck is control. Being a Modern player you wouldn't recognise control.

The hate is even stronger and you get locked out of games much more often.
This is fact

>opinion
>this is fact
Sure

How the fuck is that an opinion you retard?
Kys

>it's my opinion that chalice locked me out of the game

Wew.

>chalice locks you out of a game
Sure, if you're retarded.

This happens all the time with storm, are you saying storm players are retarded?

Being a legacy player you wouldn't recognize linear aggro without maindeck combo hate. Or non blue decks in general. See how retarded those statements are? Both formats have viable and non viable strategies, Its retarded to argue which is better. You might have a preference, that doesn't make the other format worse.

Nope, legacy players are so far up their own ass. It's weird that they hang out here when they don't even like modern

>this

I play storm and chalice isn't a complete blowout of a game - sure you might lose G1 if the deck is running G1 chalices, and even then, if your meta is full of that, you can mainboard answers, and the sideboard is full of bullets chalice doesn't catch.

They shelled out for a modern storm deck so you tell me

>Viable in Legacy
Aggro
Midrange
Combo
Control
Tempo

>Viable in Modern
Aggro
Midrange
Combo

I check in here every now and then to see if the general and the format has gotten any better.

They always get worse.

> Arguing over Modern and Legacy
> Not playing Vintage like real men

Wew

All of the storm players in my LGS has a negative winrate vs Eldrazi stompy. And these guys play exclusively storm for years.
>if your meta is full of that, you can mainboard answers
I just don't think you can afford to mainboard card like that without risking losing to inconsistency. There's only a handful of Chalice decks in the room at a given time, but for some reason Storm players are always paired up against them.

Vintage is good fun, but Legacy is a far more diverse format.

This is forgetting the true Patrician format, 93/94

Stompy hurts man. Like every deck, there are the awful matchups. But it isn't a total blowout no chance matchup.

Tempo is viable, fuck boy.

Draw, go control is a shit archetype for turbo autists.

> But it isn't a total blowout no chance matchup.
Oh no i'm not saying it's unwinnable. I manage to maintain a 50% winrate against eldrazi. Sometime they mulligan and only have chalice as the only relevant card. Those are winnable. It's only when they follow it up with TKS or Reality Smasher is the game effectively over.

>50% winrate
With legacy storm? Which build you running dude? Where can I get some of that?

The secret is a lot of luck and two Echoing Truths and Hurkyll's Recall. Also, the 2 DP ANT build has the best chance against chalice without going into TES.

You can't really build a good modern budget deck anymore since every deck has atleast one pretty expensive card in them and is significantly worse if you cut it.

>The manabase is a bit odd though since few decks use it
Every manabase is basically the same. Get your 4xfetches (Marsh Flats) and 4xshocks (Godless Shrine). If Marsh Flats are too steep, just fill the gaps with applicable KTK fetches (4/5 of them can grab Godless Shrine).
Tokens can probably use Mutavault to some effect since they need something to survive boardwipes when your shit gets blown up (I don't know, I haven't looked at a modern token list in ages). Skip this if your budget is really tight, but man-lands fit in a lot of places and are worth the investment. Heck, Shambling Vent is probably fine as a 1 or 2-of.

Ignore people bitching at you about tiers. Yes, you're going up against a meta of Infect/CoCo/Jund/Affinity that will out-board you, Grixis/Jeskai which will out-tempo you, and RG-Tron which will give you bad feels with Pyroclasm. But just build it, play, have fun and ASK YOUR OPPONENT FOR SUGGESTIONS. If they're not assholes, they'll give you good advice.

And try to find the money for some Bitterblossoms.

>a lot of luck
Ain't that the truth.

Vintage is a super diverse format run at LGS-level (especially with peasants running 10 proxies as it is at mine)

Fucking love 93/94 desu
> The Deck.cuneiformtablet all day everyday

I only have one person to play those formats with, and I play them online so finding more might be difficult, and getting the actual cards impossible

So is it time to stockpile Congregation at Sunrise?

The card is utter shit. And Congregation at Dawn is just as bad.

5+drops need enablers in modern, and it had better damn-well win you the game on the spot.
So, no.

Nigga, just play Prime Time and Valakut.

I want to get back into modern bc I like playing magic
I was just going to play Ad Nauseum because I think the deck is really fun. I've got a lot of pieces of infect left, namely Spellskites, Hierarch, and Nexuses, and stuff from back when Naya Zoo was Viable, like Knights and shit (no goyfs or fetches/duals tho)
basically hmu if you're looking to trade some fastlands and other pieces of the deck for stuff like Hierarch, Spellskite, Nexus, might have some other stuff laying around too
Just don't want to pay 280$ to finish the deck and I have this stuff sitting around

I just bought a playset of Argothian Enchantress then I realized it's not Modern legal though this does not really affect me because I only play casual with friends.

So I have to spend 150 dollars on a single tarmogoyf/600 on a playset or something?

You could get a set for about $440-$480.

Still what the fuck

Why is this a thing

Is there anyone who can justify dropping 450 dollars on 4 pieces of cardboard? I could buy a shitload of cardboard for that price.

how long have you been playing magic dude? there are cards that costed a thousand dollars a decade ago.

come play legacy
Useas are up to like 400 a piece now

>Is there anyone who can justify dropping 450 dollars on 4 pieces of cardboard?

Yeah.
There are people that can justify spending $2500 on one piece of cardboard. The justification is often "I can afford it and I want it."

I can. I can afford it and I want it

Don't listen to these shitters, you're not trying to win a GP , just be able to give people a run for thier money at FNM.


For FNM Budget BW Tokens will be fine. In fact BB can be an outright awful card in some matchups (Zoo, Burn, Infect)

Just run Raise the Alarm instead, and a few more token producing cards of your choice alongside 2 more anthems, you'll be fine.

Duress is also pretty solid, 4 Duress 2 IoQ will do just fine, you're already great against creature decks as it is.

Pic related, a card that is much much better in the match-ups you struggle against.

>a flying blocker every turn is bad against infect
please elaborate

Taping out turn 2 against infect is just asking for trouble. You'd be better off watching and waiting to see what the do, Path in hand, with the option to raise the alarm block on the ground

Do you even play the deck?

Just because it costs 2 doesn't mean you have to play it turn 2.

I'm obsessed with sultai colors and I think a mid-range control package with him would be neat.

That's exactly my point, so against Infect you'd need to play it turn 3 at the least to be safe, but at that point it only affects the board state turn 4, at which point you've already lost.

Bitterblossom is NOT good against infect. It's good against other fair decks and midrange decks, which is what we were already good against.

does this make it into RUG Delver?
Pros
> pumps past 2/X's
> mandrils love the PT boost
> hexproof protects from removal.

Its basically a cheaper simic charm with the two best modes.
only downside:
> can't be pitched with shoal
> no threat = no good

I really can't tell. Sometimes the bounce is what you need, whether it is the least used mode or not.

Plus the shoal aspect is very important. Two hits so much.
Goyf, Bob,snap, leak, Terminate, Melina, anafenza, blighted agent, temur battle rage, ravager, I could go on.

It's the reason I run 3 charms. It's so versatile even outside it's own modes.

Also that art is bad

AshtonKutcher said he'd be testing a list that uses this over charm. He also said that list would run MSS and no Shoal. Curious to see what he comes up with!

I'm bored and feel like building Affinity, does Hangarback Walker go well into affinity or am I better off looking elsewhere? Money isn't an issue either way but I don't want to build for legacy

Probably come up with the same thing he does each time he goes that route. He doesn't like it.
He hates playing linear decks. Recently he attempted to slow down suicide zoo by adding counterspells and the like. Needless to say it was bad.

I'm interested too but my hopes aren't high