Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Strormwinders were off rebuilding their own kingdom after getting it back from the Orcs. They really wouldn't have had much strength to give.
The Scourge in Lordaeron wasn't all that bad until its own prince turned on them and kicked the invasion into overdrive.

>They were also fanatics who wanted to burn everyone who wasn't one of them and, if I remember right, hated all non-human races almost as much as the undead.

See, that doesn't make any real sense. Lordaeronians were cool with Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes etc. Even if they weren't, they had worked with them befroe and could likely put aside any differences in the face of an existential threat. Fear of zombie genocide is enough to put aside your "lol elves are dum".

I suspect the racism thing was put there specifically to force a conflict with the Alliance, because otherwise, why the hell should they care about a different kind of undead dying? SC policy wrt to undead seems more in line with Alliance policy than the Argent one, especially considering the Alliance rejected the Forsaken.

I remember that in Vanilla at least it was super rare to get groups of alliance heading up to fuck with the crusade.

So I blame the simplification of WoW for forcing crusade/alliance conflict than anything else tbqhwy fampire

weren't there even statues of dwarven and elven heroes in the monestary?

The potential for mana addiction is apparently just a racial thing for elves. Remember that high/blood elves are basically just pale night elves, night borne are slightly darker night elves. And naga are scaly elves and satyrs are furry elves and dryads are half deer half night elf. And every night elf centric zone has at least one colony of ghost elves.

Azeroth is lousy with elves.

>were cool with Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes etc
W>remember that in Vanilla at least it was super rare to get groups of alliance heading up to fuck with the crusade.
Wasn't on my server. Even though going there meant meeting up in Southshore, running (in foot, as we were all level 30-something) up through the lake, past Undercity, past the zeppelin tower and all the way to the Monastery only to die to the one dickhead 60 rogue who had nothing better to do than hang out by the entrances. And if anyone wanted to do Graveyard or Cathedral, you better hope someone remembered their damn key.

He's gone guys. He actually did it. And before 45 too.

I'm happy for him.

no king rules forever, my son

>Strormwinders were off rebuilding their own kingdom after getting it back from the Orcs. They really wouldn't have had much strength to give.

They were definitely a force, even if not the juggernaut they eventually become in later WoW. I remember seeing mention in WC3 of how Stormwind had gotten its shit together and was an actual kingdom with an army now. Doubtful they could single-handedly drive off the Scourge, but they could definitely help in some way.

Being charitable, maybe the Scourge take-over was too sudden. So Varian couldn't muster any resistance in time or thought it would be pointless. He and Garithos never hooked up to fight the Scourge together because as far as Wrynn knew, Lordaeron was a goner and he had shit to deal with on his end.

Being cynical though, Stormwind received a LOT of refugees. I expect manpower was something desperately needed and helped Stormwind deal with its internal problems and even expand. Helping Lordaeron hurts Stormwind because if that kingdom still exists, it draws away all the manpower that Stormwind needs to deal with its own problems. The downfall of Lordaeron makes Stormwind the most powerful human kingdom and the de facto leader of the Alliance; they actually gain a lot from the fall of Lordaeron.

>The Scourge in Lordaeron wasn't all that bad until its own prince turned on them and kicked the invasion into overdrive.

The problem was the plague. They'd lost one or more major cities and while the short term threat had been dealt with thanks to the quick thinking of Arthas, there was always the possibility of the exact same situation occuring.

It might have been a lot bloodier but until they could cure the plague, the downfall of Lordaeron was likely inevitable. Just a matter of how long it takes really.

Helping masses of refugees doesn't make you stronger since the vast majority of them are children, women, and elderly. Basically all the people who can't fight.
Same thing happened to Lordaeron after Stormwind got wrecked in the First War. And starting with the Plague, would you really mobilize your army for a disease outbreak on the other side of the continent? Medical supplies, sure. But Varian wouldn't have had reason to get whatever rag-tag army he could muster together up and running to Lordaeron to deal with a disease unless King Terenas asks for it. By the time it becomes an issue that would make it worth mobilizing the army for, Terenas is dead and Arthas is rampaging across the tattered remnants of his kingdom.
And refugees are flooding south to Stormwind taking up valuable resources and space meaning the Stormwind army is still needed at home.

Apparently the Nightwell is extra refined because it was made with a Pillar of Creation.

Also its not really running out of power, that rascal Gul'dan is cutting off the supply as an extra control on the Nightborne. oh what won't that card do?

>Helping masses of refugees doesn't make you stronger since the vast majority of them are children, women, and elderly. Basically all the people who can't fight.

Nah there were definitely a lot of fighting age men among the refugees. The ones doing the fighting were the trained soldiers, maybe some militia types as well. Without equipment and training, a soldier is useless. There's no way Lordaeron could equip anywhere near ALL of their fighting age males when the kingdom falls so suddenly. Without the ability to fight, the only option is to run.

>Same thing happened to Lordaeron after Stormwind got wrecked in the First War. And starting with the Plague, would you really mobilize your army for a disease outbreak on the other side of the continent? Medical supplies, sure. But Varian wouldn't have had reason to get whatever rag-tag army he could muster together up and running to Lordaeron to deal with a disease unless King Terenas asks for it. By the time it becomes an issue that would make it worth mobilizing the army for, Terenas is dead and Arthas is rampaging across the tattered remnants of his kingdom.

But is the solution to sit by and do nothing? Certainly it seems to have worked out in the end in Stormwind's favour, but you're acting like Stormwind was much weaker than they were. They're incredibly strong in WoW, which is only a few years after this, though some of that can be attributed to Lordaeron refugees.

There's a good reason for intervention: they're a threat. They've destroyed Lordaeron and chances are they're coming for you eventually. The choice is to sit there and let the Scourge grow stronger, or attack asap, help refugees escape, link up with local forces that were still resisting (Scarlet Crusade, Garithos) and do what you can to at least contain them.

cont.

cont.

There was in fact so much resistance that during the timeline of WoW, the Scourge failed at wiping out the remnants of Lordaeron in the form of the Scarlet Crusade. They weren't as strong as they appeared, mainly thanks to Illidan and the Forsaken.

I think the idea is that they blamed Stormwind for, well, surviving.

>complete the Jarl of Jandivk quest line
>Toryl walks to the fire
>CITIZENS OF JANDVIK
if Khadgar needs to start consuming disciples like Illidan to get good at his meme magic, I know where to start

They might dislike Stormwind for being less than helpful, but they're complete idiots to attack possible allies. Their real hatred is the undead and attacking other humans helps the undead win. Let's be real here, Scarlet Crusaders being hostile to the Alliance is a game convenience. The justification of them being racists is just a post-facto explanation.

>The justification of them being racists is just a post-facto explanation.
Just like the nazis were unjustly demonised so the allies didn't have to face up to their own atrocities, yeah.

I always figured Stormwind did get involved, just not in spots the players saw because we really followed the Horde and the Night Elves after Arthas's fall.

>there were definitely a lot of fighting age men among the refugees
[Citation needed]

Stormwind wasn't a superpower by the time WoW started. It wasn't the de facto capital of the Alliance until Varian came back in Cata.

>Warcraft
>lore

Still more lore that is fresh than
>WHFB

Are the Aldrachi Warblades and Twinblades of the Deceiver stronger weapons than the Twin Blades of Azzinoth in lore?

Is Illidan let loose a whistle and a ''daaaayum'' when he sees the PC Demon Hunter with those?

There's at least some at Southshore. Although some of those guards are women, true. I'm not sure if that's a game convenience or soldiers in WoW are supposed to have women in their ranks.

It wasn't until WoW that armies got diversified like that. It could also be a nod to the various armies' bepletion of manpower from three major wars across roughly one generation.

The Scarlet Crusade cannot die.
>Survived Vanilla
>Survived travelling to Northrend and becoming the Onslaught
>Survived the Cataclysm
>Survived Mist of Pandaria

Can they survive the DK class campaign?
Probably.

There's nothing in-game to suggest that, so if they did it was incredibly minor.

I think you're right, I can't remember there being a clear capital city of the Alliance, it really was much more of an actual Alliance in vanilla instead of this High King crap.

I think the bigger question is if they can survive the incoming rush of Retadins all vying for the Corrupted Ashbringer skin. The only thing holding them back now if the Artifact Research gating.

So I've got a question, that I'm sure the answer is just retcon, or someone not keeping track of their own lore, but wasnt the Broken Isles underwater, like, forever? My recollection of events was, it sank in the sundering. Gul'Dan raised it in WC2, died, and it sank again. Then Illidan brought it back up in TFT, and the night elf campaign is all surprised to find this random island again. Then Illidan sunk the battleship AGAIN, trying to kill Maiev. Now AU Gul'Dan once again brought the place back? And now it's totally inhabited, and has been since forever?

In Vanilla, all the Alliance players congregated in Ironforge because that was where the auction house was.
It also made sense that the fortified dorf city that had never fallen to a siege be the capital of the new Alliance.

The high king thing is to give the Alliance a singular leader the way the Horde has always had a Warchief. It doesn't really make sense, but at least with Varian, you could use the excuse that he had the force of personality to make ancients like Velen, Tyrande and Malfurion follow his lead.

It doesn't quite work with little Anduin.

Partial retcon, the only part raised by Gul'dan is the one island with the Tomb on it, the rest have been there. I don't believe it sank again after his death, Illidan just sailed there.

I think it's actually something they inherited from their troll ancestry. Trolls seem to be highly susceptible to genetic mutations based on outside stimuli. Since elves are basically trolls that mutated from being oversaturated by the energies emanating from the Well of Eternity, it stands to reason that elves are highly susceptible to genetic changes based on magical stimuli.

By retcon, it seems that the broken isles have always been there, it's just the island with the tomb itself is the one that sinks and rises.

Still doesn't explain how the giant elf city like Suramar could be completely missed by Prime Gul'dan, Doomhammer's Horde, Illidan, Illidan's lackeys, and Malfurion and Tyrande and Maiev. Oh, and the Wardens' Vault where they store all their prisoners is conveniently on those new remote isles that have always been there.

Actually, that does kinda make sense that you'd put your worst scum as far away from you capital as possible.

The whole deal with the sinking and raising was only with the Tomb of Sarferas, which is the Broken Shore. Everything was still there, just

>Suramar cut itself off from everything. Nelfs knew it was there anyway
>Farondis and such were still ghosts, probably didn't want to be bothered.
>Vrykul were doing their own shit
>Tauren doing their own shit.

Keep in mind, during the TFT campaign, the only factions to go to the Tomb were Naga and Nelfs, who already knew everything they needed to about the Broken Isles. The only non-elf there was Drak'thul, the orc hermit, who's actually on the Broken Shore now chilling out.

>Gone off to whiteer pastures

At that point I'm pretty sure Gul'dan was considerably weakened, and that was the whole point of his trip to the Tomb. He probably didn't care about a city with a bubble over it.

And Tyrande and Co. still probably knew about Suramar, they just didn't bother going to it because they wouldn't get any help from them.

Nah, Maiev made it clear she thought Suramar had sunk beneath the waves. But the Tomb of Sargeras is on a separate island from central Suramar, so I bet they just couldn't see the main islands, and didn't know Suramar had survived

I remember the Tides of War novel having that part, and mentioning as soon as all the Stormreavers died, Maim and Rend sailed away as it was sinking again. Bunch of demons flew out of the tomb, and the orcs just kinda fucked off after.

Excpet now, there's been a druid settlement in val'sharah for ages apparently.

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Probably. Illidan's twinblades are ultimately just some random weapons he looted from the corpse of some doomguard (called Azzinoth, hence the name). It's somewhat strange we don't see any demons wielding similar weapons, because they originally come form the Legion (they became the signature DH weapon because Illidan had them, and the demon hunters either were trained by Illidan in the fighting style he developed which used such weapon, or just wanted emulate Illidan and got weird double-bladed swords just like he had).

The DH artefacts, on the other hand, are a pair of DH warglaives empowered by one of the Legionlords himself, and the weapons of the champion of a race so badass they killed literally millions of demons before Sargeras himself showed up and personally wiped them out.

Yeah, it ain't perfect. On one hand, maybe Maiev just didn't know about the settlement, since she spends most of hertime uunderground guarding prisoners and raping Illidan while Naisha watches.

>It also made sense that the fortified dorf city that had never fallen to a siege be the capital of the new Alliance.

Actually, it has fallen before; Orcs owned all of Khaz Modan, including both Ironforge and Gnomeregan, at the start of the Second War.

I think we have to remember again that the geography of WoW isn't necessarily canon. There's considerably more distance between the Tomb of Sargeras and Suramar than a 100 metre span, it's entirely reasonable that Maiev would've ridden a boat through 20 kilometres of the Broken Isles and not realised she was boring through solid rock because she knew Illidan was ahead of her somewhere.

IIRC, they never actually got into Ironforge. They conquered all the area surrounding it, forcing the dwarves to just bar the gates and hope the orcs leave before they run out of supplies, but they never breached the city itself.

No they didn't. They besieged it twice, but never got through the gates.

The hunter class campaign and hall are both so boring, which I guess is fitting considering that MM and BM are two of the most boring specs in the game. Seeing Sylvanas' sister did remind me, is there an estimate on how many non blood high elves are still kicking around? Did they finally get totally wiped out or converted?

I totally blacked this part of the lore out, thank you for reminding me.

Last I heard there's a few thousand high elves still out and kicking.

Aren't Night Elf Mages just Highborne?

Fucking traitors need to fuck off and die

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>a race so badass they killed literally millions of demons before Sargeras himself showed up and personally wiped them out.
So another Azeroth but less successfull? I still have no idea why can't the normal weapons work against the legion, they were just fine back in BC and WoD.

>Without moonlight, without sun light

Reminder that the Nightwell wasn't just a source of magic, it literally fed the Shal'dorei more like food and water. The Sunwell only empower the Quel/Sin'dorei

If you look at the degenerating process, you can tell the difference:
>blood elves feel sick
>get used to it by having strong will power
>controlled consumption of other magic source just enough to not be sick
>uncontrolled consumption of other magic source, creating an insatiable hunger, become wretched

>nightborne fatigue so hard they can't stand without drinking a whole bottle of arcwine
>become full skellington, survive by constantly eating dried up mana dust
>starved to the point they lost sanity and become zombies

While blood elves have choices on what to do with their addiction, nightborne is one day down. Blood crack elves turn because they fed too much on mana, night crack elves turn because they can't get enough mana.

The biology between night/blood elves and nightborne is probably very different. The Sunwell can probably slow down the deterioration process, maybe even keep nightfallens from becoming withered, but don't think it can keep a normal nightborne healthy.

>Get 90% of your population eradicated by undead
>Most of what's left gets addicted to demon crack

Sucks to be a high elf. They'll be extinct in not too long.

Does Emprah or Slaanesh have a bigger dick?

There, this thread is now 100% Traditional Games by having this post. No need to reply.

So do you think they'll actually kill off Sylvanas this expac?

>Inb4 Kosak waifu memes

I hope not. Not because 'waifu' shit, but simply because we've been bleeding racial leaders like crazy these past couple expansions. I'm hoping they'll be able to tell an actual story with her.

Fuck the high elves. Most people, including Blizz, forget that Sin'dorei was a name given to the highborne of Quel'thalas by their prince (who has full authority) before going rogue, and before the use of fel magic. Blood elves were a thing before even fucking Garithos. The only reason for any highborne to remain Quel'dorei is these fucking traitors value human cock more than their own people.

And? We are reaching the end of the story, of course major characters start dying and Sylvanas if any should be on the list of "players get to kill"

"Because they saw their prince dressing in blood red and swearing revenge on the world and remembering that old rant and where it goes."

Calling themselves blood elves was in honour of those who died to the scourge.

Calling yourself a high elf is like personally desecrating the corpse of every elf who fell in the third war.

It shows you don't give a shit about your people who were murdered.

As a longtime Sylvanas fan, so long as they end her story in a satisfying way, I'm happy, even if it means she's a raid boss. So long as it's well done, I won't complain.

Yet another reason why Vareesa is a human loving, cock sucking shit.

There's literally no one to take her place.

The Forsaken are pretty much '"The guys who help Sylvannas''

>So long as it's well done
Well done, Tirion "Felflame Barbecue" style?

Well she did free them and give them purpose

They seem to be bigging up Nathanos Blightcaller this expansion.

Probably better than that. So long as she doesn't live, getting a faux trial, escape, then cause a shitty expansion, I'll be fine. I'd actually be ok with it if Alleria, the sister she looked up to and loved, delivered the killing blow. Alleria is married to Mr.Light, Turalyon. She probably has a hard on for the Light to. If she sees the monster that has taken her little sister's place, she may feel the obligation to put her soul to rest not realizing that her soul is bound for super-hell and she will never know rest, no matter what anyone does.

There's always her boytoy, Nathanos. He seems well respected enough by the Forsaken.

>end of the story
>anytime soon

The ride never ends. The assault on Argus is gonna be in ~50 years, so unless they make a cut and give us wc4 or wow2 we'll see expansions for as long as activision remains the festering tumor of blizzard

The only problem with that idea is that Nathanos is even more loyal to Sylvie than your average Forsaken. He has always played the part of #2, and doesn't seem interested in leading. His biggest interest is making her vision realized. So if she does die and he takes over, he will still just be trying to fulfill her vision and maybe even try to resurrect her.

I think the best option for the Forsaken is to have a high council style of government post-Sylvanas.

But Nathanos' entire character is literally ''yo i fucking LOVE SYLVANNAS. Adventurer get your useless ass over here and help me do stuff for Sylvannas''

As I said,all Forsaken are defined by servitude to Sylvannas,you can't really replace her.

Yes, at least originally. Nigth elves only got mages in Cataclysm when some of the highborne from Dire Maul joined the regular night elves, and they let them because with everything going to shit because Deathwing, having any extra help on your side would be welcome (the fact that they've spent quite a lot of time allied with races that do openly practice magic might've also softened their view on "arcane=bad").

PC mages are probably night elves trained by the highborne in magic, considering it doesn't really make sense for a 10 000 years old highborne arcanist to start at lvl.1 in a random village in Teldrassil.

And now that Velen is super pissed, does that mean we can have Draenei become Eredar and play as Warlocks?

Nathanos is a psychopath. For all the bad shit Sylvanas has done, he would be so much worse. He really can't be allowed to lead.

Obviously.

This is also true. Nathanos is straight up psychotic, even moreso than Sylvanas. Literally, I think she's the only thing reigning him in, and she often doesn't even do that. He's her head attack dog, or the tip of her spear.

ILLIDARI

WE ARE BREAKING THE CONDITIONING

Well, it makes a small amount of sense given that they explained, recently, that the "High King" title is really more like Turalyon's "Supreme Commander" title. Why they didn't use Supreme Commander is beyond me. Maybe they were busy playing Skyirm?

Not to mention that Koda Steelclaw, one of Val'shara's Archdruids, is a woman, and mentions that she has slumbered for centuries.

You never see her as a night elf, though. Maybe she's just a bear.

That's funny.

A druid who is already an animal.

>that Stormheim intro
I see Blizz still hasn't figured out how to make the Horde lose.

Stormheim outro?

Is she Sir Bearington's wife?

>Says the Horde doesn't lose
Niggah, the Forsaken lost almost their entire fleet to the Skyfire. Fuck you and your bias-vision.

Wasn't it like 4 ships? Last I checked the Forsaken had more than that.

Genn makes Sylvanas waste a ton of resources in order to accomplish a grand total of nothing, so it is a very slight Alliance victory in the end.

>Genn comes out of worgen cryostasis to give Sylvanas an extra five minutes of fame
great great great

>four ships
>the majority of the fleet
Not even you could believe this.

That's the number of ships rendered in game. In the lore, is says she brought the majority of the fleet. Then Genn wins at the end. Seriously, I don't get why people never feel that the Horde never loses. Is it just a sense of Alliance victimization or faction loyalty?

She brought the majority to stormheim sure, hut I don't think they manage to blow up any others besides those 4, especially not woth the skyshield which seems to do fuck all other than get blown up. Admittedly, I rushed through that set of quests because I found the RvB stuff retarded.

My main problem is the tone of Alliance questing since Cata. It usually takes the form of "Despite your best efforts to defend against hostile action, the day was lost." Whereas Horde questing has become "Thanks to your efforts, we smashed the enemy!"