/wmh/ Warmachine and Hordes General - The Wait to Theme Lists Continues

I love this game.

When will /wmh/ general become better than the official forums? Because it used to be, but its just Skorne tears right now.

You're gonna see it get much worse when the Command books start releasing - they aren't all releasing at the same time, aren't all gonna be the same size, not all factions will get the same amount of sub books and theme forces are only being released with the release of the book.

So for example, Cygnar, Menoth and Trolls will each get their books in the Nov-Dec area. They'll get new units, new solos, new jacks, new casters and access to theme lists. Someone like Retribution is gonna have to wait until the spring.

It's a very GW sounding release schedule.

I hate to agree, but I must. One thing I liked about the MKII books was that they had stuff for everyone that wasn't a limited release faction, so everyone had something to look forward to. And as much as I love PP, quick turn-around on product isn't their strong suit - look what happened to the original four-book release schedule for the Iron Kingdoms line.

>Croak raiders got nerfed
>Gators got nerfed
>Bog Trog Ambushers got nerfed

Gator player who bitched last thread, I'm glad someone else noticed. At least we got some buffs (let's just put tough on goddamn everybody). I feel like a lot of Skorne lists will be Minion heavy if they go infantry at all. No KD tough (Slaughterhousers, Gators, Brigands) might be good under Rasheth of Noodlearms. Effective POW 16 brigands are a thing, and you can RNG to victory.

At least from the outside looking in that's how it looks. I was going to pick Skorne up for Chan Gang before the edition change, and if feels like what I wanted to do got fucked.

Well its what they are trying out for approximately the next 5 years. If it gets too bad they'll probably switch back.

I hear ya, I was just considering investing in some Raiders for a new frog based list then this happened.

Rasheth came out ahead and desu you could run him without a tier and still do well. But its an uphill battle this edition.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

To be fair, Gators in Mk2 were far and away the best medium base unit in the game.

Like, it was insane how good they were.

To be fair to him, Warders were good, Skinwalkers were good after the alpha and Cataphracts in general all saw play as competitive alternatives to Gators. Shame what happened to Skorne there really.

Just picked up a Lylyth Battlebox to start playing Legion. What should I buy?

Cataphracts only saw play in Fist or in lists where you needed FF stuff to work, like Revive.

Shame about gunlines, you mean.

If you could wrap them around a krea they'd be fine. If there was no urgent reason to wrap them around a krea they'd be fine.

When the nerf bat comes around, swung so hard peoples grandpas will have turned out to have died of toothache, they'll all be back.

What do you want out of Legion? Beasts? Blue elves and angry ogrun? A little bit of both?

For Lylyth 1 I would recommend grabbing Nyss Archers, Ravagore and Nephilim Bolt Thrower.

Welp the biggest issue I had with compilation books was that everyone got x unit or y solo even if they didn't need one or have ridiculous competition for those slots.

So everyone got a junior, but only a couple of factions would actually want to field their new one.

Everyone got cavalry, but most did not end up being used for most of MKII.

Compilation books are another item on the list of things that seem cool, but really arent. Towards the end of MKII you could tell that PP was starting to adopt that mindset too...

Especially on Hordes side

This is identical to the mk2 forces of books.

Mk2 saw the forces of books released about 1 per month and those books introduced new units and casters and theme lists exactly like the mk3 ones will. Why did you expect mk3 to be different?

>So, regarding the overall discussion let me just say this:
>Our heads are not in the sand. We are paying attention to feedback posted here, emailed in, tournament results, league participation data, etc. I cannot tell you how many of my own "off duty" hours I've spent reading the Warmachine reddit, Veeky Forums, various FB groups, so on and so forth. Point is, the concerns and the congratulations, the criticism and the praise, it isn't being ignored.
>We are reviewing a tremendous amount of information, and many things are being tested at the moment. We are very excited for the first round of dynamic updates. As soon as something concrete exists to say regarding them: estimated date of release, content, design decisions, etc you can be sure we will. Until then, know that it is being worked on and that your voices are being heard.
>Also, to avoid misconception, note that doesn't mean that every piece of feedback we get is implemented by any means or ever will be. We, like many of you, are looking at the big picture of the game and ensuring that we are going to deliver the best wargaming experience possible.
>TL DR We also like things that are fun.

PP confirmed for not liking Cryx or Skorne.

So get Mk.III Legion box and a Heavy beast. (I hate infantry....hate playing them and playing against them.)

Look into Absylonia 2 too then. Also even if you hate infantry, how do you feel about Strider Deathstalkers? 4 point sniper solos that work wonders.

Wait, they come here?

Abby 2 looks nice (though it's a bit of an investment for a warcaster $-wise) Deathstalkers are decent looking too.

Abby 2 is actually medium based. Larger model than you would expect.

Hungerford could be watching me shitpost about Skorne at this very moment.

Any news on Fyanna 2? or any of the warlocks for that matter?

I fucking hope they are, where are my half plastic trolls calvalry. At least I can use tuffalo's to knock out home intruders.

I kind of hope they do.

I mean, Veeky Forums has some flaws as a medium for discussion, but I think it can provide an unfiltered viewpoint that places like forums or reddit never could.

Last I heard the guy that was painting Una2 at the latest con said something along the lines of "Una2 will want to take birds."

Thats it. All the news I know of.

There's a rumor for her spell list, which is insane.

However, if she can only take birds, it's pretty bad.

Anyone want to buy a whole buncha cephalyx?
30 of each infantry type
3 agitators
unit of overlords
wrecker+warden
both casters
looking for about 300-325 beaverbux, if anyone wants it I'd split shipping to whereever

But they know that /wmg/ is shit at the game, right?

Have you seen some of the staff lists and battle reports? We're kindred spirits.

I mean, in general, sure. You can't exactly take everything said here as gospel truth.

But there's some pretty valid balance points raised here, and you don't have to raise it under some veneer of being polite or supportive of the game.

Yes.
Did you notice how much more discrete Matt Wilson has been about his dragon dildo collection?

Releases will not balance Skorne. A rework will balance Skorne.

Hungerford might be reading our shitfest of a thread. Makes me feel fuzzy inside.

>Welp the biggest issue I had with compilation books was that everyone got x unit or y solo even if they didn't need one or have ridiculous competition for those slots.
People got different releases though.

Only time that factions got simultaneous entries were when new type of model was being introduced per faction and casters.

Well, you get banned from the forums for disliking stuff.

My ban lifts today.

>Why is skorne so weak?

>Infantry
All Skorne infantry is bad. Karax can tarpit fine, Nihilators can sort of tarpit while being able to mow down infantry, and Cetrati with Xerxis1 and an Agonizer are a great brick, but every other unit is bad. Outright bad.

>Lessers
Reptile Hounds are still bad. You also only get 1 card per 2 hounds when they need a spiral each. Agonizer is great though.

>Lights
All unplayable. This is not a joke and/or dank maymay.

>Heavies
Gladiator, Cannoneer, Bronzeback if you need to manage fury, maybe Karn if you're using a Makeda, maybe Tiberion if you're using a Xerxis. Everything else is bad.

>Mammoth
Average.

>Warlocks
Skorne warlocks do not have a gameplan. They do not have high synergy with one particular unit, beast, or gameplan, aside from maybe Xerxis1 having Defender's Ward and plans for Cetrati. There is very little reason to pick one over another. None stand out, they're all medium power level or just bad. There are no good feats in Skorne.

tl;dr, Skorne is a mixture of bad models and lack of gameplans. Morghoul2 has a plan. He's also the worst warlock in the game.

>Infantry
>All Skorne infantry is bad. Karax can tarpit fine, Nihilators can sort of tarpit while being able to mow down infantry, and Cetrati with Xerxis1 and an Agonizer are a great brick, but every other unit is bad. Outright bad.
Reivers might be our best unit. Either that or second best after Karax. Bloodrunners can be good too. Right on the rest though.
>Lessers
>Reptile Hounds are still bad. You also only get 1 card per 2 hounds when they need a spiral each. Agonizer is great though.
Agonizer is a bit expensive for how situational he is. But he's essential to our game plan and that's more than you can say about most of our pieces.
>Lights
>All unplayable. This is not a joke and/or dank maymay.
The Brute is okay.
>Heavies
>Gladiator, Cannoneer, Bronzeback if you need to manage fury, maybe Karn if you're using a Makeda, maybe Tiberion if you're using a Xerxis. Everything else is bad.
Fuck the Bronzeback and Molik. Aradus Soldiers are nice though. The rest is again spot on.
>Mammoth
>Average
Yup.
>Warlocks
>Skorne warlocks do not have a gameplan. They do not have high synergy with one particular unit, beast, or gameplan, aside from maybe Xerxis1 having Defender's Ward and plans for Cetrati. There is very little reason to pick one over another. None stand out, they're all medium power level or just bad. There are no good feats in Skorne.
Rasheth is also good and coherently designed. But yes, that's it.
>tl;dr, Skorne is a mixture of bad models and lack of gameplans. Morghoul2 has a plan. He's also the worst warlock in the game.
Sad but true.

Skorne has the same amount of dud options that most other factions have, if you wanted to play the averages game.

I would say that Skorne's greatest hits are not as good as other faction's, and I think that's the main issue. There's also the thing where Skorne doesn't pose a super hard challenge to opponents. When I'm building lists I'm thinking about if I can handle khador, cygnar, and ret shooting, wurmwood, and Madrak 2. I'm sure there's some other fresh bullshit out there, and it'll take some kind of retooling of options.

That isn't to say Skorne can't respond; the aradii and carapace are obviously okay into shooting, and a mammoth under defenders ward is pretty mean. Everyone seems pretty stoked about the ferox, but everything about buying, painting, and packing those things looks awful. I'm still a little butthurt that reivers, ferox, and karax are actually good, but those are the things no one wanted to own last edition.

>Skorne has the same amount of dud options that most other factions have
How many does Ret have for example? One? Two may I dare say?

Hm, yeah. Maybe TUna'll come out simultaneous with some bird heavy? ....here's hoping.

>There's a rumor for her spell list, which is insane.
I'm pretty sure that rumor came from Menoth John. Which means it should be taken with probably an entire shaker of salt.

How many do Cygnar and Cryx have? Or minions? Ret's internal balance is good, doesn't mean you're gonna see ellowyr swordsman soon or half their lights.

If anything they should be listening to us more because we're not filtered through moderators or rules or pretensions of being polite.

You hear that Hungerford? Kossites suck dick.

Cygnar has Precursors. Do minions have any at all?

I dunno man. 2 units with sorscha 1 for 22 points. One has stealth one ambushes, and her stationary garbage lets them actually hit stuff. There are worse ways to fill out bodies.

What's the actual point of lights? They can't crack armour, and infantry clears out grunts better.

Gator posse took a big hit, but just because they're not arguably the best heavy infantry in the game any more doesn't mean they're bad. I'm not sure who wants to run them though, I'm not familiar enough eith the factio in mk3. Minions (and mercs) look pretty solid overall which is really cool.

Don't totally agree. I think Skorne has a few too many "duds", especially in the caster department. I do agree that they're not without options.

Of the new shinies, I think Karax are going to end up being the biggest deal, long term. Skorne is one of the only factions that can still spam infantry effectively, and that's probably going to be their way forward.

Karax are, point for point, one of the best infantry in the game. For approx the cost of Ferox you get two full units. You could do a lot worse than just starting every list with 20 Karax that you run forward on T1 and say "Deal with this while the rest of my list moves up".

A lot of them take cool support roles like shield guards or bring a nifty gun or something. They also tend to be fast channeling nodes. In hordes they're a cheap source of fury and animi and that can be really helpful.

>Gator posse took a big hit
Gator Posse took a HUGE hit, but then again they got access to Defender's Ward in faction. Helga's very happy to bring along a unit of these guys.

I don't think the minion community has really even begun to dig in to all the crazyness that removing pacts opened up.

>What's the actual point of lights?
It varies faction to faction. Some factions have lights that actually do a ton of work without any extra help (cygnar or cryx). Others have battlegroup-wide buffs that are more efficient with a lot of models (Sloan, Carver, Kromac2). And quite a few lights fill a utility function that nothing else does, like shield guard, Rush, Primal, etc.

Good lights provide utility, spot removal or fire support.

The charger is a good light, it wont kill a heavy or a whole unit on its own, but that solo its looking at might just have a bad day, and it will take more than a solo to kill it off. At 9 points its more expensive than a solo but cheaper than most units.

If your only metric for a models value is its ability to kill other models in some kind of weird vacuum of 1 on 1 fights you might need to git gud, noone with half a brain claims the deathripper is bad because it really sucks at killing stuff afterall.

Cygnar is a good example of Lights done right:
>Sentinel
Shield Guard and mows down infantry. Also not trivial to kill.
>Lancer
Arc Node and can remove enemy cortices with ease. Also not trivial to kill. If Thorn wasn't so stupidly good he might see play.
>Charger
Bang Bang
>Hunter
BANG
>Minuteman
Nice for throws which is something Cygnar is not usually proficient at. Also crazy mobile and can easily get to protected solos or casters. A bit too expensive for my taste and could really use Extended Control Range.
>Grenadier
Might actually be viable now if you're bringing Trenchers anyway. Have to test.

In short: All of them fulfill a certain support niche and can do a bit of work themselves. That's good Light design.

I agree that karax are the bee's knees. I'd still like to get some. I made super janky zaal 1 list with 40 karax in it. It was an answer to the early mk3 Sloan boogeyman with a shit load of doods to tie her up and make quality attacks to bring down the plethora of light jacks. I never want to own 40 karax, though.

Spam is great fun to try once, but I don't think the investment in time and money is worth it in the long term. Ref. Troll rage posters on official forums posting pictures of models in the garbage can post EE nerf, or my sad, sad collection of cataphracts

Skorne's caster lineup is pretty solid. They're not power casters by any means, but lets face it, they never have been. Makeda 1 looked pretty stupid until folks figured out a battlegroup of bugs works well against shooting and her feat works on beast packs.

Xerxis 1, Rasheth, Morghoul 1, Mordikaar, and Hexy 2 can be pretty savage in their matchup. Makeda 2 looks to me really interesting and Makeda 3 looks fully operational. I need to get some games with her.

The rest are pretty meh, I'd say that's the same number as most other factions. Cygnar and Circle are still kind of stuck riding the train of 1 or 2 highly effective casters, while the rest are at the kiddy table. At least that's the impression I get.

Khador fucking rules, though.

Problem is the casters are meh, the troops are meh, the beasts are meh and the solos are meh. All in all not a recipe for success.

I'm actually come around to the view that in this case, the problem REALLY IS everyone else.

Skorne actually is pretty good! But there isn't but a handful of things that it can do that aren't just run over by SOME asshole's skew (and there's a dozen officially sanctioned assholes to pick between, so there's always at least ONE) without him even noticing the bump, though.

Kill your darlings, PP. Kill your darlings.

Ret player here :

>Melee

Halbardier and Sentinels are the premier choice, plug and play with everyone.

Infiltrators are a steal for their price (without UA, stealth infantry with gang and 2 attack for 13 points ?) so you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield.

Ellowyr are niche, but with Elara they can be game changer.

>Shooty

Invictors, Strike Force and Stormfall really good.

Nyss Hunter and Riflemen you see them a bit less, but are great in their role.

Ret internal balance is really great with MKIII, a lot of option. The solo department is the only thing that you have piece over the top and shitty piece, but we can live with it.

>so you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield.

Erased a part where I told that they have problem with ARM so in current meta you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield..

Why DID they beat up the Gator Posse so badly?

Though I do love the idea of playing pactless it seems strange to slam the gators so badly, was it to ensure Slaughterhousers had a place in the post-pact world?

Probably because it meant every Hordes faction could use the same top tier unit.

They were pretty much best in slot for all of hordes barring specific builds, like eMorvhana and pXerxis' tier. Shoot, out of tier they were still great with pXerxis. 8 boxes, unyielding, and 2 pow 18 mat 7 attacks each, with built in pathfinder and threat extension vs living targets. They and croaks way outclassed their competition.

There are also much, much better things to spend those 22pts on.

So, Im thinking about picking up the Khador mk3 battlebox; Is it any good? What should I build onto it with?

>Ret internal balance is really great with MKIII, a lot of option
Well that's what I was saying.

What's their new statline?

(It's a shame they don't have some sort of in-faction bonus that makes them slightly better than their hired-out minion versions)

It is kind of interesting how a faction like skorne can look at their 11pt infantry selection and take it as a reprieve on the way to execution from PP's better angels, and Khador can take theirs as a conspiracy against the faction.

Because Skorne used to play them, and PP wants to phase Skorne out of the game by 2017.

Oh wow, lost one MAT, lost three wounds, gained tough, had Bloodthirst made into a prayer and had Dirge of Mists nerfed.

Jesus that hurts. I could see maybe the MAT loss or wound reduction on their own, but some of the rest seems excessive.

Damn, it seems Rabid's been totally removed in Mk3, that's a damn shame because it was pretty awesome.

Ah well, it's still a thing in the RPG which is nice.

It was a pretty clear "why would you ever not use this in combat" ability and that was bad. I'd like to see it reappear in a different way. Maybe like:

>Rabid: This model immediately frenzies. Rabid can be used once per game at any time during this models activation.

Some things being an auto-use don't seem too bad. I mean yes it's an outright buff but you still need to choose what other animi you can fit in.

And at least one of the replacement animi is similar to what you said Primal - Target Friendly Faction model gets a bonus to MAT and STR - and automatically frenzies next turn (even if you overwrite this with another animus).

Rabid is not an animus. There is also never a reason not to use it when you send in the Shredder. Or, was to be more accurate.

Dang I'm forgetful. Was it just automatic speed and an extra die (Or was it a free boost?) or did fury need to be generated?

When is the Man o War officer attachment coming out? Was meant to be some time this month, haven't even seen pictures yet..

+2 SPD and boosted attack/damage for 1 Fury.

21st

Honestly man, by the time I've built what I want with a Khador list I have something like 22 points left to play with anyway, especially with a generalist like sorscha 1.

I know, it must be hard to have what appears to be a bad unit lol.

>A rework will balance Skorne

It's so adorable that people think this is going to happen. Skorne is going to stay the way it is with small errata changes here and there. A Skorne redesign is never going to happen

If enough gangers speak out, they will do it.

I wonder if there are any gangers here.

Allow me to rephrase: A rework WOULD fix Skorne.

>gangers
You mean Press Gangers? PP doesn't listen to us at all man. There's a huge thread in the PG boards right now on this topic and nothing will come of it.

If they do actually re-balance the faction I'll be shocked and amazed

>There's a huge thread in the PG boards

Link please. I feel like getting some more sodium in my diet.

It's not that exciting.

Just because one faction has loads of shit doesn't mean they shouldn't fix other factions minor shit.

>You mean Press Gangers? PP doesn't listen to us at all man.

It's not really "PP" not listening to you, it's a few specific managers.

And it's not unusual what they are doing to the Press Gangers, they don't even listen to their own staff.

There's a real "stick your head in the ground and pretend things are going well" attitude with many of the PP managers.

Anyone that speaks out, doesn't stay with the company very long.

Add this file to the google drive already. For fucks sake who was i putting this out for you goddamned whiners?
WHERE IS THE TROLLBLOODS DECK? WHERE IS IT?
WELL HERE IT FUCKING IS NOW ADD IT TO OP.
4shared.com/office/ciko92Ebba/FREN-Trollbloods_Stat_Cards_v1.html

What do I do?

Fuck you. Go suck a dick.