Start playing new Pathfinder game

>start playing new Pathfinder game
>play a summoner
>go easy on min/maxing because overdoing it is poor form
>DM throws a golem at us
>spellcasters can't do shit
>the monk, fighter, and eidolon can't break through its damage reduction
>haste everyone, still nothing, even on crits
>it's 6-on-1 and we can't do shit
>kills my eidolon in two hits
>everyone runs away
>realize everyone's characters are garbage
>resign myself to min/maxing the eidolon to OP status

3.PF hate general.

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I honestly can not give a fuck anymore, shits stale.

Let sleeping dogs lie

I'm more ambivalent towards it than anything. I prefer point build systems to class and level systems, but that's the worst I can really say.

>only thing realized ITT

i think this is more of a case of shit dm the shit system, why would your game master throw something at you when you have no hope of winning, shits not right

Let's just get it over with quickly.

oh man, saving that. whoever made that rules.

The bait's not as good today.

This time it was less bait and more my frustration with the system as a whole. I'll shitposter harder next time, senpai.

You're not supposed to win every encounter, you know.

It's 2016, you're a few years late on this.

>just keep trying to attack a monster impervious to your attacks
Yes, this is clearly the game's fault.

when i tried d20 modern as a teenager and realized how miserable it was.

t. shit player

I realized D&D was shit when I saw dice that weren't D6 on the table.

Saying that Path of War is "missing the point" seems like a cop-out honestly. It's the book that explicitly exists for the pure pose of resolving the martial/caster disparity, so disregarding it out of hand feels like an attempt to ignore the solution to the problem in order to prolong the argument

The problem is it's a 3ed party book. Whereas the actual publishers think like, well.

This.

I had probably the single most fun filled campaign I've ever had in D20 Modern. Everyone else was playing Ex-Military, Emos, or Hackers. I was playing a meth addict.

Only Tough hero in the party, only unarmed and melee in the party. Proceed to get the most kills, most plot development, and punch the shit out of cyborg version of myself that traveled back in time to steal my drugs, because there weren't any drugs in the future.

>monster impervious to physical damage
>monster impervious to magical damage
>monster impervious to spells

Has someone posted this on the Paizo forums?

>Not using the terrain to lock it in place or slow it enough where he wouldn't matter.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of D&D and the games that are like it but this is a tabletop, not a video game

>The "It's a Team Game" image

None of your party's have ever taken down a creature that couldn't be damaged?

>anyone still GMing 3.pf is not worth the lies they tell about game prep

and that's a rock fact

This sort of shit is why spells like pit, rock to mud and the like exist.

Fuck, the entire reason for force cage to exist is for things that can not be damaged or to stop yourself from being nuked by arch wizards and ancient dragons

how many free feats would you have to give to every martial class to make it ballanced, do you think?

2-3 every level and something unique they can do that a wizard can't replicate with magic

the games are simply as good or as bad as the people involved.

complaining about a roleplaying system is like picking up a pencil and saying "oh man pencils are awful" just because you drew a bad picture.

either the dm isn't adjusting the rules to fit the players or the players aren't adjusting their expectations to meet the challenge. everybody has to be flexible. you only get as much as you give.

That's easy to say about a super light system where each character has access to the same number of berth of abilities but not a system where there's hard limitations on what certain classes can or can't do and certain classes can have upwards of 400+ character options.

The one thing that's really hard to actually moderate is "bloat" especially when certain classes just plain have higher expectations at certain levels where other classes simply can never reach.

The moment you infer Fighty Mcgee can cut mountains in half and fly even at level 20 people go all "GET THIS ANIMU GARBAGE OUTTA MUH D&D" but then they get angry when the level 20 wizard isn't summoning demons from hell, flying around everywhere and turning invisible while raining down comets.

>Being shit at charcter building

>Attack a monster
>Entire party can do nothing
>Rather than running away and regrouping, you keep attacking until someone dies

Sure is the system's fault alright.

>character building being a metagame
No.

what you're describing doesn't sound like any game i've been a part of.

more-often-than-not my players are in a room filling with water while crocodiles try and eat them. getting out alive is a job well done.

i feel like maybe you're alluding to an over emphasis on combat. summoning demons and sword fighting won't get you out of a bad legal situation or cure the infection in your lungs. challenges shouldn't always be violent in nature.

>Character building takes more than 5 minutes

You're not always supposed to be able to beat everything, sometimes it's best to run

>doesn't sound like any game i've been a part of.

Anecdotal evidence.

>i feel like maybe you're alluding to an over emphasis on combat.

No actually in fact you know why?

Because casters actually excel way more outside of combat than any other non-caster class to the point where casters having a vast amount of utility is the #1 reason they're considered broken.

Unless you either A) Actively put anti-magic bullshit everywhere just to spite the caster or B) Study the spells your casters know and can cast thoroughly before creating an encounter they can almost instantly overcome it.

>the dm isn't adjusting the rules to fit the players
what does this mean? You shouldn't have to fudge rules in your system.

Depends on the edition. I've read a great analysis of 5E that shows that you'd need to give Fighters an near-exponential number of feats at higher levels in order to maintain parity. For example, a single 9th level spell per day is roughly equivalent to 8 and a half feats.

>cyborg version of myself that traveled back in time to steal my drugs, because there weren't any drugs in the future.
That's amazing.

a lot of dms and campaigns have battles set up like chessboards. the terrain is pretty flat and the enemies are at the opposite side of the room. if you actually put time into making interesting combat engagements, with interactive environments and strategic enemy movement, casters will generally struggle to keep up or avoid being mobbed.

if a caster is able to just stand still and fire off spells until the battle is over then the battle was a failure from a narrative standpoint. dming is hard and there are a lot of mediocre dms out there.

again, you really can't complain about a system because the system is malleable. if your dm isn't adjusting things correctly then find a new dm. if you are just upset because you don't feel powerful enough then you should probably just play a video game because feeling powerful really isn't the point.

fudging the rules is the most important part of being a dm. there aren't rules for everything. you need to fill the gaps.

you could easily program a computer to enforce the written rules of any system but then you are going to be required to only attempt things for which rules exist and suddenly you are playing a video game.

Whoever wrote that was smoking something.

3.¶f is the new aDND its mostly the best because of memories within that system and resources. Every one might be experimenting with 5e but I think the best aDND style RPG is myfarog and the best 3.0 3.5 or PF edition is miniature rules for 3.0 played with 3.5 spells and maybe PF characters. 4 is source book only teir and 5 is YouTube teir n not as action packed with rock solid mini rules. Star finder might be interesting but only for the fact that most SciFi DND groups turn into 40k and the 40k RPG content sucks thou I could imagine GW going the extra mile and doing a inquisitor light system for the necromunda box. Seriously you start playing cyberpunk or traveler and you just end up in 40k and despite what many people think I don't think FFG know what they are doing in tabletop they know how to make cardboard tokens of things that belong in iPhone apps. Their systems are good boardgames but they haven't made a mature hardcore system yet and it doesn't look like they want too. They make casual RPGs and tabletop boardgames but yer the fact pathfinders getting the SciFi treatment for 3.5ish shit will be very good for all the fallout games . but half the book will still be wasted on space ship shit

Oh, here we go, "It's the DM's fault the casters can do everything and the martials are shitty!!!"

Go eat a mountain of dicks.

Wait, make that two mountains. While a GM can change the rules if they WANT, they shouldn't be FORCED to make up for shitty, shitty rules.

It's funny because terrain stacked against the players is far easier for a spellcaster to deal with than it is for a martial. Full attacking is a shit mechanic that should have been taken out back and shot in playtesting.

How would you guys to about making 3.0 3,5 and PF work in one campaign like content from all 3, I have the three core 3,0 books with a 3.5 eratta added in and a separate file with all the 3.5 spells. I doubt I'll get any more physical books so imagine I have them on the table plus a lot of epub3s I can search and bookmark easy what sorta filter would I have to apply to 3.x and PF starefinder content to make it work. Mind you I understand how this would make the game looser and less tight for players and gm but say you always pick the lowest disputed stat would that work? I think I'm basically ready to download all 3.pf content and start wading thru it just so I can tell friends what's possble pre game or would I be better sticking to one. I asume there's some stuff only in 3.0 and only in PF that's not in 3.5 I figure it will be Easter to fudge things once the game has got going. But I'm tempted to wait till starfinder because of the new skills. Not sure what game I would run prob some stranger things shit so the SciFi skills might come in handy for Audio video skills.

complaining about it isn't going to make you less angry

i've played multiple systems and i've liked them all. you probably can't find any system that fits your specific needs. the problem is that you think games exist to entertain you when the reality is that games exist to empower you to entertain yourself.

if you're not having fun it's probably because you're not fun.

This.

The Foresight spell gives one target advantage to all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws, immunity to being surprised, and enemies have disadvantage to attack the target. All that for eight hours with no significantly expensive material components, merely a hummingbird feather. No concentration required, the only restriction is if you cast it a second time the first one expires.

Now, tell me how many feats you think that's worth.

Actually, I like M&M 3e pretty well, a system that breaks if you breathe hard on it.

But there's nothing in the system that makes a concept objectively worse then another, unlike 3.PF that punishes you for not playing a spellcaster.

So take that shit and shove it right back up your ass.

you clearly have a very narrow perception of how roleplaying games work. you keep talking about stuff like it's a video game. the point isn't to level up your character and beat the game. the point is to sit around with your friends and tell a story one situation at a time until you've written a full and wondrous history together.

you should try and intentionally make a bad character some time and learn how to have fun in spite of your compulsion to be optimal.

>there is no way to stop something other than by damaging it and attacking it directly

So the DM sent a monster at you that either was too tough (his mistake, hopefully he learns from it) or that you were supposed to run from (and they eventually did).

If you start min/maxing then everyone else needs to min/max to the same degree or else some players are going to get screwed.

Making a sub par character should involve something more than playing a character who doesn't use magic directly.

If your dm has put that kind of a creature in a place with no way to deal with him like shoving him down a pit or something then you've got a garbage dm

Don't bother arguing with him. He obviously doesn't view you as a peer but rather someone to lecture. The irony being that he's completely retarded.

Nigga, the druid's fucking class feature can replace my whole fucking class.

I CAN BE REPLACED. WITH A FUCKING CLASS. FEATURE. WHY AM I EVEN THERE.

No fucking duh I don't have any fucking fun when I can't do anything, or actively hurt the rest of the fucking party.

If they have, I'm sure they were instantly banned and their account and entire posting history was erased because they disagreed with the glorious dev team that can do no wrong.

Is that really what the forums are like?

>No fucking duh I don't have any fucking fun
well i don't have fun playing basketball and that's why i don't play basketball. i'm not mad at basketball.

Probably? I was just making an assumption. I know for a fact that the Paizo team refuses to ever admit they were wrong about caster supremacy, and it takes an ego the size of the goddamn sun to do that.

The DM should be *able* to fudge rules, but they shouldn't be doing it all the time. If the DM just pulls rules out of his ass, then I can't enjoy the game, because I know no matter what I do, I'm not moving towards a goal. I'm moving towards whatever the DM wants us to be moving towards.

So, if you have a system which is completely broken, and in order for it to be enjoyable, the DM just has to bullshit a bunch of house rules that are changeable to his will, I'm not going to enjoy it as much as if I had a simple comprehensive system that we didn't have to fudge as much.

But what if you played sports practically IDENTICAL to basketball except that they were actually more fun due to some shifts in rules or content?

Have you tried like... a regular party, where you just sit around and shoot the shit with your friends? Because, if you don't want to play a game with a consistent set of rules, it sounds like you don't want to play a game at all...

>people actually taking the bait

Trolls trolling trolls. This thread is pretty pathetic, when all is said and done.

Kind of wish everyone would adopt trips.

IDs like on other boards would instantly improve Veeky Forums's quality a thousandfold

are we talking street ball or are we talking slam ball?

cause one of those is cool but the other is awesome.

I thought you were arguing that you could have fun in any system... fucking retard.

bbal isn't a system tho

it's a life choice

They can get pretty bad.

>It's another "I DON'T LIKE [system] AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER!" thread

>has to constantly be reinforced
>any opposition is ridiculed as if it was from ignorance
>plays on people's good intentions
>defended as if it was the gospel

Gee, I wonder what school of thought anti dnd fags came from

I've wondered for a little bit if making casting inherrently MAD would help.

INT giving bonus spells and affecting highest level castable,
WIS remains affecting saves.
CHA affecting spell DCs.

Obviously, the main problem is that there're rediculous numbers of spells that can do dozens of things, and excepting sorcerer-style known-spells, can be swapped out on the fly with a little bit of batman's superpower.

Please, user, Magus is already MAD enough.

My first DM was enthralled with d20 Modern and kept trying to force us to play it. Eventually I gave up and moved to a group that played Pathfinder when I tried to drink myself to death during a game because of how bad it was. Ended up that Pathfinder was only marginally less shitty. As in 0.100000000001 is marginally higher than 0.1.

Listen man, you're beating a horse that has already rotted away.

Seriously, go home.

Golem magic immunity only applies to spells that allow spell resistance. Most conjuration spells don't

Most people, especially the GM, rarely keep track of the terrain beyond it being an amorphous void where people are just close enough to reach one another in one turn or so.

It makes it shitty sure but D&D, for all the focus it puts on combat, doesn't really present any mechanics that reward player ingenuity beyond big numbers (martials) or spells (mages).

When you're new and the GM is the only one with a book, it can take hours.

We should all know by now that PF is mostly garbage barring a few gems.
Have you tried playing a D&D edition that's actually good? Like OD&D, AD&D1or2e, Basic, 4e D&D, 5e D&D.

Needs a bingo space for "It was better in OD&D/Holmes/Moldvay/Cook/Mentzer/BECMI/AD&D1e/2e"

Could always go back to older editions of D&D where saves aren't DC based but based on the throw of the target.

Rip Ashiel

After years of posting about the issues in pf, and even posting the C/MD bingo poster, they recently got banned and the forums nearly rioted. The mods are full on damage control. I'll link to the thread in a sec

Verily. I've had a whole eight hour session for getting people's characters set up because nobody else would buy a book or go torrent a pdf. Fuck that. Never playing a game without multiple books ever again. Never.

The "Realism" space gets me every time.

paizo.com/threads/rzs2twkm?Questioning-User-Ban#1

>some transX throws a massive babby fit because they interpreted something that had nothing to do with anything trans-related as an attack on transpeople
>mods go full Kim Jong-Il on everything and ban one of the few posters on the forum that know what they're talking about for questioning why posts were deleted without a word
Congrats on being less professional than GITP mods, Paizo. Holy fuck.

>That line being crossed is a huge issue for my enjoyment of this website - even the usually vilified Veeky Forums is far better at accommodating trans people in my experience.
RIP poster, Paizo death squad incoming.

>Playing game
>One dude is using a bullshit homebrew class
>Tries to call bullshit on me using an archetpe as written instead of with errata

I kind of hate anyone who ever even asks to play their personal homebrew class in a game. If the DM vets a few and lets them through thats one thing, but if you open with "this is my homebrewed class" we all know 9/10 DMs will be too cowardly to properly call you oit on your bullshit class abilities.

At least one person got banned just for asking why ash got banhammered. The scary thing is that the questioning user ban thread still exists

That's not an argument when I can shit up and totally break a game by playing a Master Summoner completely by the rules as intended.

It is for them to identify future problematic members of the community.

People need to realize company forums are just the fucking worst. Even threads companies start on other websites come down to silencing dissenting opinions and promoting whoever sucks the company's cock enough. Every fucking time, they can never be trusted.

to be fair, D&D WAS better before 3rd ed.
Although adnd 2e kind of foreshadowed how 3e would turn out, up until 2e, the game experience was /very/ different to how it's ended up. Certainly, at reasonable levels caster-supremacy was less of an issue in those versions. Then again, it was a totally different playstyle, so you're comparing different things.

Why not pay 5e? It seems a hearkening back to what made d&d good.

The first time I played on roll20.

Funny, play with the same group of guys AD&D 2E and have fun for years, tweaking and houseruling as we went along and talking shit out.

Sometimes the DM used made up or on the spot mechanics because we were doing things that weren't laid out, or at least it was easier and quicker to move the story along than looking shit up.

But the first time an entire session was spent on bitching about other players characters being "optimized" and "useless" respectively and I came to the realization

Hate the Playa not the game.

I wouldn't recommend it as a system to a newcomer. Then again, I wouldn't recommend any system at this point so much again I would finding a group of people who want to have fun with you. You can learn any system eventually, but it seems like bad habits around how to act like a decent human at the table are harder to change.

play*

As an old fart who moved on from 2e, you can fucking have it now.

It caused way more grief and frustration then 3, 3.5, 4 or 5 have caused or will ever cause. 3.5 could end friendships, 2e could get people to renounce family and declare vengeance on entire communities of players.

Do not act like that old fossil is worth dragging back into the spot light.

>I'm entitled to win every fight and if I don't it's the systems fault.

Literally what?

What's so bad about the system?

Not every DM allowed the Elf book, user.