How much do you bother optimizing for noncombat benefits in 4e? Do you ever try to aim for tricks such as Bard of All Trades, Arcana optimization, Diplomacy/Courtier, Bluff/Spy as a changeling or a hengeyokai, or Streetwise/Secrets of the City? What of investing in rituals via the Dragon #405 heroic tier ritual feats?
If you are GMing, remember... 1. To strongly consider giving out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and pre-errata Melee Training. 2. To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math. 3. That skill challenges have always been scene-framing devices for the GM, that players should never be overtly told that they are in a skill challenge, and that the Rules Compendium has the most up-to-date skill DCs and skill challenge rules.
If you would like assistance with character optimization, remember to tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, if anything is banned, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds. If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.
I do what I can--kits and tools, skills, rituals or martial practices, within the bounds of class and race already chosen. I won't try for things like astronomical levels of Bluff unless I have a character in mind that needs it--in other words, not every rogue I make will need to have all the same tricks from Thievery and/or Streetwise and/or whatever.
Samuel Russell
>martial practices Now, why would you bother with martial practices given their steep buy-in cost, their overall inferiority compared to rituals of the same level, and the fact that Bardic Ritualist and Divine Secretkeeper exist as multiclass feats?
>Thievery I cannot think of any especially noteworthy methods of Thievery optimization.
Jonathan Young
Here is an example of an unusual build optimized for intrigue and cloak-and-dagger adventuring, rather than combat. All it can really do in a fight is spam Poisonous Shuriken with an assassin poison, which is not much at all.
In the noncombat field, however, it reigns supreme. It boasts Bluff +28. Thanks to the Spy's level 10 feature, it can always make a Bluff check in place of a Diplomacy check, and when interacting with another creature (even something as innocuous as a conversation with a fellow PC), it can make a Bluff check in place of any knowledge check. Apparently, social interaction spurs a spy towards sagacity.
Faulty Memory can wreak havoc in social encounters, and even turn what would otherwise be a non-social encounter into a social encounter via timely distortion of information. The character can transform into a sparrow (with an actual fly speed) with Bluff +33 to maintain the ruse. The build can also take the shape of any Medium humanoid (including devils, demons, and ghosts), likewise with Bluff +33 to keep the disguise afloat; unlike a changeling/doppelganger, this even comes with clothing.
Remember that in 4e, automatic disguise-piercers are few and far between.
Languages tend to be a difficult spot for most masters of disguise, but not to worry. The character has a False Blood Amulet (Angel) and thus need never breathe, eat, or sleep. (Drinking is still required.) They also do not age. The character has a Polyglot Gem (Supernal) and is thus eligible for the ability to speak, understand, read, and write all languages equally as per page 69 of the Rules Compendium. As well, the character's Pileus Helm gives them telepathy 5, which can help them coordinate cons with allies.
Items: Level 11: Magic Ki Focus +3 Level 10: Shadowdance Leather Armor +2 Level 9: Rare item, sold off for 4,200 and added to 4,200 gp pool for a total of 8,400 gp to spend 2,600 gp: False Blood Amulet (Angel) +2 1,800 gp: Pileus Helm 1,800 gp: Polyglot Gem (Supernal) 840 gp: Either Crimson Determination legendary boon or Gauntlets of Blood hands slot item 680 gp: Ioun's Revelation +2 680 gp: Rhythm Blade Wrist Razors +1
Trained Skills: Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery, and either Endurance or Streetwise
When is it worth it to put Rhythm Blade on a parrying dagger (and spend the feat slot for proficiency in it)?
Mason James
A parrying dagger is almost never worth the feat. If you must, for whatever reason, use one, do so with a Mage's Weapon +1 for 520 gp.
Note that the Rhythm Blade itself is a mire of rules ambiguities. Just because the online Character Builder allows it does not mean it is actually RAW-legal. There are several questions you should ask your DM if you intend on using a Rhythm Blade: 1. Can I benefit from a Rhythm Blade if I have no shield bonus to AC to start with? 2. Am I ever considered to be wielding Rhythm Blade wrist razors in my off-hand if it is merely strapped onto the arm? 3. Am I ever considered to be wielding a Rhythm Blade spiked shield in my off-hand if it is likewise simply strapped onto the arm?
Aaron Jones
Ye Olde Most Annoying Rogue Ever build uses an offhand rhythm blade parrying dagger (feat obtained via Gritty Sergeant background). That's one specific case where it works. Was curious if there were any others.
>Benefit: You gain proficiency in a simple or military weapon of your choice, and you gain a +1 bonus to initiative checks.
The parrying dagger is a superior weapon. How does this background open access to a parrying dagger?
Samuel Parker
Hum. I just re-looked at the build and Gritty Sergeant is used to get proficiency in rapier. Rhythm Blade is put onto a light spiked shield. I have no idea why I thought it used a parrying dagger.
Carry on.
Ayden Davis
Be an arena fighter and make it one of your arena weapons
Nathaniel Bennett
As an Arena Training fighter, you would still be better off keeping to a light shield and using a Rhythm Blade spiked shield. In fact, you could even designate it as one of your arena weapons and then use it as part of Dual Strike.
Daniel Torres
Does parrying dagger count as a dagger? Can you use the implement enchants on it?
I remember trying to build a Bard and considering using a parrying dagger for some reason about a year ago.
Lucas Wood
>Parrying Dagger: This narrow dagger features a specially designed guard that can deflect attacks. A rogue proficient with the parrying dagger can treat it as a dagger for the purpose of the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature.
This is the only time a parrying dagger ever counts as a dagger for mechanical purposes.
You will find it very difficult to find builds wherein a parrying dagger is actually a good choice of weapon. It does not help that the singing stick is near-objectively superior, being a +3/1d6 defensive weapon, and even then, you will have trouble finding builds wherein the singing stick is worth the investment.
At best, I can see a truly AC-minded Arena Training fighter opting to wield a singing stick in one hand and a Rhythm Blade spiked shield in the other, but that will severely dampen their damage output and mark enforcement.
Anthony Powell
can anyone help me with the WoTC character creator
i have it installed up to the oct 2010 patch and im using cbloader 1.3
everything was working fine until recently every time i try to save or open a character sheet the program freezes and crashes my pc
has anyone had this issue or know how to fix it? as usual google search results are useless
Austin Robinson
Have you tried deleting and reinstalling it yet? Doesn't sound like something you can fix on your own.
Lincoln Robinson
yea i have completely uninstalled (deleting all temp folders etc) and reinstalled multiple times. the program works fine its just saving and opening character sheets which makes it unusable if i can't do that
Jace Evans
How would you go about making a Paladin/Warlock (Either multiclass or hybrid)?
I've been wanting to make a character for a while and with 4e allowing Paladins of any alignment a Paladin of Admodeus could be a lot of fun.
Julian Lee
The hybrid paladin|warlock is a bog-standard, run-of-the-mill, tried-and-tested build. Choose the Sorcerer-King Pact solely for access to Mindbite Scorn, take your pick between Constitution/Charisma bozak draconian or Intelligence/Charisma pixie, and then select either Eyebite or Hellish Rebuke to force a catch-22 with your (watered-down) Divine Challenge.
Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge are your go-to level 1 encounter power and level 2 utility power due to the mass-sanctions they lay out (which are not diluted in the way your Divine Challenge is).
The problems with this build originate in the fact that you will have tremendous minor action economy issues until the high heroic tier, wherein you can afford curse-spreaders. This is why I heavily discourage hybrid paladin|warlock and swordmage|warlock builds for a character *not* starting at high heroic, and ideally, the build works best at paragon and above.
Ayden Gonzalez
Curse spreaders?
I was thinking about Tiefling, would that be alright?
Noah Foster
Also: Wouldn't I want an encounter power that can actually benefit from Warlock Curse? Hybrid curse says it only works with Warlock powers.
Jonathan Torres
Where is Battle Cleric's Lore? I'm trawling the compendium, and can't find it?
Henry Robinson
>classes with dual main stats can now use either stat for ALL of their moves >Paladins can use either Stat or Cha, Warlocks either Con/Cha ect. How does this change things? It's not cool not having access to half of your possible abilities
Ryder Edwards
Certain powers, feats, etc, allow you to curse extra targets, saving you minor actions Tiefling will work and give you a bunch of feat support. Wrath of the Crimson Legion is one feat you'll want to look at The ideal setup is to have a warlock at-will you can use whenever you want to increase your dpr, such as mindbite scorn, which has options to improve damage even further
Jonathan Sanders
>mindbite scorn Hand of blight*
Nathaniel Davis
>Curse spreaders? Magic items and feats that can spread Warlock's Curse. Better options for this exist at the paragon tier, of course.
>I was thinking about Tiefling, would that be alright? Yes, and there are racial feats that support such a concept. I am simply obligated to suggest bozak draconian for any Strength/Charisma or Constitution/Charisma build, either kapak draconian or pixie for any Dexterity/Charisma build, and pixie for any Intelligence/Charisma build, because these races are far and away the most highly-gifted "out-of-the-box" races in all of 4e.
Valorous Smite is one of 4e's strongest level 1 encounter powers, on the level of the warlord's Vengeance is Mine. You would be a fool to pass it up.
You can find it in Dragon Magazine #400. It is not in the Compendium for whatever reason.
I would implement this only for the warlock, not the cleric, the paladin, or the ranger.
The non-Essentials ranger, which is already 4e's best pure-damage striker, would receive a tremendous upgrade. It could safely start with Dexterity 18+2 and use that for both two-weapon and archery attacks, and it would never need Strength. The Stormwarden would become even stronger than it already was.
Strength/Charisma and Charisma/Wisdom paladins would immediately vanish and be replaced by supercharged Strength/Wisdom paladins for all intents and purposes. Half-orc paladins, with their Blessed Strength racial feat, become even better than they were before, and are free to lay into enemies with Valorous Strike from level 1.
The melee cleric suddenly has no need for Strength at all, and Wisdom/Constitution-based clerics become hyper-durable melee/ranged leaders who can still use the likes of Righteous Brand, Mighty Hew, and Words are Not Enough.
The warlock would not change much due to pact-specific riders. The warlock is one of the worst-off classes in terms of encounter attack powers due to good riders being locked behind pacts.
Henry Gonzalez
Well the whole idea behind that is that the different mainstat options have a different way of fighting. STR paladins are very direct-damage oriented, while CHA pallys focus more on disabling/punishing. It also affects what feats the class has access to, which can alter their playstyle further.
I guess opening up stat options that way won't break things terribly, but it does open doors for some minor(?) feat/hybrid shenanigans
Jack Watson
The simpler build is if you want to be a more cleave-y, smite-y SoB is to hybrid Paladin (chevalier) instead of non-essentials paladin. Less action economy issues, although you also lock yourself out of using the feats that rely on having divine challenge and curse on the same target, as well as Champion of Justice (if you wanted to melee some fools).
Caleb Kelly
As a paladin|warlock, you want the Sorcerer-King Pact for access to Mindbite Scorn, and then either Eyebite or Hellish Rebuke to force a catch-22. You do *not* want Hand of Blight.
At level 11, you take the Twofold Pact paragon feat for the Star Pact, giving you Dire Radiance and unlocking the riders of Delban's Deadly Attention and Far Realm Phantasm.
A hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock runs into the issue that Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance lock them into a melee-only build, and yet the warlock is a predominantly ranged class.
The hybrid paladin (cavalier) is one of the best hybrid classes in the system, but I am afraid it simply does not have that much synergy with the hybrid warlock. It would pair very well with, say, a hybrid barbarian, a hybrid cleric, or a hybrid ranger.
Bentley Ross
Speaking of hand of blight, would it be worth it to couple with the tyrian bureaucrat feat, which lets you daze if you expend a fell might? Semi at-will dazing seems good, but I don't know how often you'd be able you get back a fell might in a typical encounter
Luis Torres
Well, some smart folks in this piece, so I have a question about important npc design. Years ago, I wrote about how, due to adhering to the dice rolls, an npc enemy that had allied temporarily with the party inadvertently pushed a outside thing back thru the portal it was coming from, saving the day. The players were salty as fuck, and it was suggested that I keep the npc, and have him be reoccurring, a living agent of thunderstealing from the pcs, or at least showing up to "save the day" in an obnoxiously comedic fashion. Oddly, it was a Baaz draconian, and now I'm trying to figure out how to rebuild him as something more than a trash mob. Someone had suggested paladin, but what would a lowly creature trapped in the Far Realm become to not only survive, but become mightier than thought possible?
Carter Edwards
If you are optimizing, you will only ever have Hand of Blight if you are a pure-classed warlock (understandable for a low/mid-heroic game) and you rightfully picked the Sorcerer-King Pact for the Mindbite Scorn feat.
Assuming you are spreading your curses around, you will be regaining your Fell Might at a reasonable rate. However, I would not bother with any of the Dragon #390 Sorcerer-King Pact feats, because +1d8 damage is sufficient for Fell Might at the heroic tier, and by the paragon tier, you will probably have Twofold Pacted into the Star Pact (which means a better at-will power and a better Pact Boon) anyway.
Caleb Lopez
Interesting, thanks.
Looking over this, is it worth picking up Crimson Fire to turn my curse into d10s vs people that are both cursed and marked by me? A 2 dice size upgrade looks very nice on something that doesn't seem too uncommon to happen.
Alexander Ramirez
>A hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock runs into the issue that Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance lock them into a melee-only build, and yet the warlock is a predominantly ranged class.
The warlock melee options are pretty good, last time I checked. You are also a full plate class with most likely CON secondary (possibly primary, although that'd make your paladin side suffer a bit), and a really bitchin' MBA, so I'm pretty sure you'll be fine. At worst, there'll be a few turns you don't get to use your Aura; which is okay, since you can just use the paladin powers to divine sanction if you want to keep marking up while you choose a new target to strike.
Robert Reed
There are better feats to pick first *cough*wrathofthecrimsonlegion*cough*, and as a tiefling paladin|warlock, you'll be very stretched for feats
Aiden Evans
Warlock.
Yeah, that's the beauty of Paladin | warlock; it should also affect your mindbite scorn bonus dice by RAW, which is an average 4 damage increase; pretty friggin sweet.
Do note it needs to be paladin divine challenge sadly, not other marks.
Jonathan Rodriguez
I'd go as far as to say that that's pretty useless for a paladin | warlock. If you want to use melee attacks, you are far better off saving a feat and just using Eldritch Strike.
Parker Cooper
I don't think warlocks don't have a whole lot of melee options. They have eldritch strike, and like one sorcerer-king power every level, which vary in quality. All the really good stuff is ranged only
Samuel Sullivan
Yeah, Wrath looks very nice.
If I'm reading this right, that's gunna give me 121 squares worth of 'You guys are all my bitches'. Sounds like I'll be able to keep the attention of every single minion in the encounter instantly.
Well, the trade in for my racial power is pretty nice. Though the GM has said I can make the trade without taking the feat (The feat will, however, give me Cha MBAs) like how a Dragonborn can take his alt racial power without a feat.
Lucas Moore
It's the "you get call of challenge but with better range" part that's good
Sebastian Collins
The CHA MBA-s aren't really worth it imo, because they don't trigger your curse damage.
I mean, it's a nice bonus, but if you intend to melee, I'd save the feat and go Eldritch Strike.
Well, I usually build them low level and you've got Armor of Agathys and Arms of Hadar right there.
Armor of Agathys is pretty terrific imo.
Joshua Allen
4e is not D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. Building NPCs as PCs is a poor idea, because PCs and NPCs are designed with wholly different math in mind.
Reflavor a Medium-sized, flying monster appropriately, and remember to use Monster Manual 3 math.
I would skip Crimson Fire in favor of Killing Curse. This will create only d8s for damage, but you should be more flexible in terms of applying the damage. For instance, if you can only curse an enemy but not challenge them, you can still deal 2d8 damage with Mindbite Scorn.
What is this character's starting level?
>The warlock melee options are pretty good, last time I checked.
They are actually fairly mediocre and limited in supply. At best, you will have Eldritch Strike as a level 1 at-will power and Armor of Agathys as a level 1 daily attack power.
Wrath of the Crimson Legion is mainly for a close burst 5 sanction. I would not call it a high-priority feat, however.
You really should specify character creation parameters, as the opening post states: >If you would like assistance with character optimization, remember to tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, if anything is banned, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, and how much you dislike item-dependent builds.
Adrian Moore
Armor of Agathys is indeed good for a hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock, but Arms of Hadar will probably fall to the wayside in favor of Valorous Smite.
Josiah White
Themes are allowed, we are starting at 5 and I suppose we expect to reach Low-Mid Paragon? We are getting Improved Defences and an Expertise for free. I'm ok with Item Dependent.
Nothing is banned unless it breaks the game in half. He said something about a holy mafia?
John Gray
I haven't got time to go through, but looking at 3, Delbans Deadly attention is pretty sweet, and again, better used in melee.
Grayson Rogers
A level 5 start makes for a difficult decision between a melee/ranged paladin|warlock and a melee paladin (cavalier)|warlock. It is probably best for you to decide on your own.
Either way, your non-free feats should be Mindbite Scorn, Killing Curse, and Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency). You do not have room for Wrath of the Crimson Legion, but that is fine; you will have Virtuous Strike or Eldritch Strike for a melee basic attack.
Be sure to take Summoned Layered Plate +2 or Imposter's Layered Plate +2 as your level 6 item.
Your DM is referring to the infamous "radiant mafia," which abuses radiant vulnerability.
Delban's Deadly Attention is a decent choice for both melee and ranged characters, even if it is mildly underwhelming without the Star Pact rider. Save it for a curse target.
Colton Williams
>Reflavor a Medium-sized, flying monster appropriately >spend no time creating a unique npc that interacts with the party Are you one of those types that only uses things already printed? > Building NPCs as PCs is a poor idea, because PCs and NPCs are designed with wholly different math in mind. Ignoring your high and mighty attitude, yes, I already know that, it's pretty obvious if you look at the book for more than 10 minutes. Thanks for the bump, I guess. Radiant Mafia. It's a series of specific character builds designed to build upon and exploit radiant damage. It's pretty vicious when you see it in action, I've seen it sprung on someone, poor sap.
Tyler Barnes
>high and mighty attitude
>Are you one of those types that only uses things already printed?
Jace Lewis
>misses the forest for the tree
Matthew Hall
I see you are unfamiliar with touhoufag. Touhoufag means no disrespect, no need to become confrontational. It's okay though, we forgive you of your ignorance.
Grayson Jackson
No, I am quite familiar with it. I simply have no sympathy or empathy for it, and I see no need to be told something that is laid bare almost by rote, on top of having what I had asked about ritually ignored. Means little anyway, got what I expected.
Evan Wright
Ask a shitty question get a shitty answer. I don't know what you expected to happen.
Noah Nelson
Gentlemen, please direct your shitposting to one of the 3.PF troll threads.
You may already know it, but it's still worth repeating.
As for actual pointers, one of the epic level quest lines that ends with the death of Tiamat (the name escapes me atm) has a high level vampiric dragonborn fighter in it. IIRC, he was actually pretty dope, you could use it as base.
Ryder Jenkins
I forgot, we can only talk about mechanics in these threads, not fluff, or lore, or the games that none of you are actually playing or running.
James Hernandez
>4e is not D&D 3.X/Pathfinder. Building NPCs as PCs is a poor idea, because PCs and NPCs are designed with wholly different math in mind. >Reflavor a Medium-sized, flying monster appropriately, and remember to use Monster Manual 3 math. Dude, it's fine when it's a companion
Wyatt Martin
Everything from that adventure path is under Monster Manual 1/2 math.
I see no indicator in that this character is supposed to be a companion.
James Reyes
>Someone had suggested paladin, but what would a lowly creature trapped in the Far Realm become to not only survive, but become mightier than thought possible?
Obvious: Warlock - some dark forces rubbed off on him Sorcerer - the same, but he's unstably powerful now
Since baaz tend to be rather hands-on, let's see tougher classes Fighter - he survived through sheer tenacity Warden - can be fluffed as his form becoming somewhat malleable, allowing him to assume various forms Battlemind - the same, really. Also, 4e's psionics is connected to Far Realm, as a sort of anti-body against it Paladin - could be fluffed as a more martial warlock
Jacob Hall
>Everything from that adventure path is under Monster Manual 1/2 math.
He'd have to downgrade the dude anyway. Math is not the important part, the abilities are.
... then again, I may misremember and he may be nothing special.
Isaiah Peterson
Reoccuring NPC that steals PC's thunder in a comedic fashion sounds like a companion to me. Also, even if he's supposed to be an enemy, having a class to steal a feature/power or two from is fine
Adrian Gray
>companion >never goes with the party
Elijah Sanders
Does "assistant" sound better to you?
Aaron Walker
Can good tactical awareness and team play be taught over the first few levels when the players have...limited strategic skills and only experience in wargames through videogames (like poor MOBA skills or playing recent Fire Emblem games on casual and easy mode) or is a group that goes into 4e without the mindset for it going to be lost without prior instruction?
Matthew Ramirez
What sort of skill challenges have been most engaging or interesting in your games? Trying to design some in an introductory scenario for a new group of players.
Forgot the epic whatever, but one for wizards/mages gives you bonuses based on your roll + Arcana, so I min maxed arcana a bit to make that and the Maze spell amazing
Plus he ended up casting rituals a lot
Bentley Rodriguez
If they understand MOBAs they should understand 4e.
Eli Wilson
>understand ...about that. What if they're terrible at them due to either a lack of foresight and situational awareness or a refusal to improve how they conform to the effective team roles when they fail to contribute?
Jordan Ward
Well, a MOBA game is like an entire campaign condensed down into 20-30 minutes. As long as they are clear with the theory, it should work out... probably.
Carson Rodriguez
What happened in this thread? So many deleted posts.
Lincoln Price
MOBAs require twitch, or the physical ability to react quickly to fast-paced changes in a situation. 4e requires none of that, because even if you push for people to speed up their turns, that's one "mouse click" that's going to take thirty seconds at absolute minimum.
Lack of foresight and situational awareness can be fixed. Refusal to adapt and improve...not so much, unless you just TPK them and declare Campaign Over, and then go over with a fine-tooth comb exactly where they dun fucked up.
Jace Fisher
>unless you just TPK them and declare Campaign Over, and then go over with a fine-tooth comb exactly where they dun fucked up.
Alternatively, have an incredibly annoying goblin warchief enemy who points out every tactical mistake they make in a squeeky voice (they still lose because they are goblins, but he always gets away and joins the next band of monsters).
Julian Reed
I...don't understand what's happening...
Joshua Hughes
nazimod hates rules?
Henry Perry
The Touhou poster's posts get deleted because mods and kitsunes.
Josiah Lopez
That is...incredibly rude, really. I feel bad for THF.
Carter Walker
Wait, are they banning anime pics now? Is this why there was an actual fox on PFG? I knew they'd ruin it for all of us.
Austin Allen
>brilliant goblin strategist could run circles around any human general >can never organize other goblins to get shit done cause they're chaotic fucks destined to always lose >get beaten repeatedly by some painfully retarded adventurers you could've mopped the floor with if anyone would listen to you It's a hard life being a goblin
Dylan Mitchell
>you moved out of position, leaving the left side of your formation entirely open! >if only yor would have flanked you LIKE WE HAVE PRACTICED you'd be lying on the ground now
Nathan Collins
>Wait, are they banning anime pics now? No and there's more to that.
Oliver Ramirez
I don't even get WHY they are deleting this. He's not broken a single rule with the images.
Parker Green
maybe he was banevading a perma?
Luke Baker
Yeah but they also deleted several posts asking why stuff vanished or even just talking TO 2Hu.
Christopher Walker
Are flaming weapons any good for a tiefling? They look to have a lot of racial fire support.
Jacob Barnes
As long as you don't end up facing devils/demons, yeah
Aaron Foster
She broke the rule which bans avatarfaggotry.
Lincoln Reyes
Is it really avatarfaggotry? I mean, 99% of the time 2hu has the image be relevant to the build being discussed.
I suppose it IS indefinable..though I'd say that applies more to general writing style than the images.
Xavier Kelly
He (?) had lots of enemies so I guess it was only a matter of time.
Leo Jenkins
>it's better out of the box as long as you homebrew it Isn't this exactly what 4e players said wasn't good if you play 3.5?
Is there no end to the hypocrisy?
Landon Edwards
It's >If you don't give out these feats for free, everyone is taxed with taking them or suffer a -1 to hit
vs
>If you play above level 6 and don't ban half the classes, the game falls apart
Asher Reyes
Considering a -1 to hit is a massive penalty in 4e, you're not making your argument any better.
Jordan Jenkins
It's a penalty, yeah but it's not really 'The game falls apart' like say Fighter vs Wizard in 3.5
It's a deal-able penalty, at that. It's still a d20 system. It's not like it's -1 on a d6 system.
Evan Ross
well, first off, everyone can still take those feats tho. You don't need to brew that +1 into the system, it's just better to hand it out if everyone will take it anyway.
Second, it's the same chance, -5%. Both games use d20s (except 4e doesn't fall apart, so you actually care about -5% to your attack).
Jeremiah Anderson
>Considering a -1 to hit is a massive penalty in 4e I keep hearing this but I don't see it. It's just -1. There's a million ways to get +1's and 2's to make up for it, and if -1 was so terrible to begin with there'd be absolutely no reason to use +2 prof weapons like polearms, axes, etc over +3 ones
Asher Wilson
+2 weapons that aren't polearms actually ARE considered worse, like, 90% of the time.
Charles Perez
Yet flail and mace builds are still a thing
Wyatt Cox
Well, that's the property of flail and mace expertise being really good, not the weapons themselves.
Xavier Miller
Basically: The difference between a +2 and +3 weapon is the difference between 7/10 and 8/10. Not a huge amount and possible not to notice but there.
It's just that since 4e clumps the power levels a lot closer together (I mean, even the Vampire isn't unplayable bad. Just low for 4e. It's no 3.5 Fighter) people make a lot more out of that 1/10 difference.
Leo Brown
The property wouldn't matter much if -1 was such a terrible penalty you couldn't hit
Michael Barnes
Right, but in a vacuum, without those feats, you'd never pick up a +2 weapon over a +3 one, unless it had reach. +2 weapons rarely have anything other to offer than a few points more of damage, which isn't worth it compared to the +1 to hit.
Which is why these really good expertise feats for maces/flails were made later on.
Benjamin Gutierrez
Which reminds me:
If Paladin | Warlock hybrid bro is here, flail expertise with eldritch strike is excellent if you go for a melee build. You'll need to grab some expertise for your holy symbol as well though, to use your implement powers IIRC.
