Imperium Asunder

>They operate in fleets and battlegroups entirely according to their leaders whims
That sounds like chapters to me

What you're essentially saying is "the warhawks would never split into fully independent groups, they're too independent for that!"

And that don't make no sense.

I think he means they're too independent to be organised into actual chapters, so they'll be more like warbands.

I do have two promts though:
1. I mentioned this last thread, but it got buried: What do the primarchs sound like? Is a primarch's voice loud and roaring or soft and piercing?
2. We need more on the Fists of Mars and Marcus Sinistrum. Since Fistsguy is sporadically here, we need to fill in some blanks ourselves. What do the legions think of the Fists?

>I think he means they're too independent to be organised into actual chapters, so they'll be more like warbands.
but that's effectively the same thing

Effectively, yes, but chapters imply a level of organisation, with only minor differences for the most part. Warbands are far less organised.

wasn't Raydon literally just complaining about someone having a "not actually organized in any way but it still fights really effectively" legion?

I think the problem there was more that the Serpents gave the impression that they were both disorganised and incredibly effective, not only on the battlefield, but outside of it as well.
The Warhawks are clearly warriors first and second.

Any thoughts on the prompts I posted ?

youtube.com/watch?v=uoetGnTIjWY

Alexios speaks quietly so that people are forced to strain to hear him and consequently will listen to him more closely.

>What do the legions think of the Fists?

Alexios sees them as the jetbike superstore catalog

I can see why youre confused the major difference is the pooling of major assets and a single command structure with actual authority. Luckily you need not worry because as you say

As for this, you misunderstand both points.
the first was my interpretation of what Xun wanted, I wasn't complaining I was offering him my thoughts as he asked for comments.

Second:
as for this , its not representative.

The Hawks ARE organised, just not in the same way chapters are. Think of them as highly divergent.

As for "still fights effectively" legion - they don't. I can think of a handful of times they have fought "as a legion" in both 30k and 40k timelines. They send hundreds where others send thousands. Because they don't fight in the same manner as other legionnaires. They don't hold ground, they destroy targets and critical personnel and then leave.

Keep in mind during the 30k timeline their average Astarte grouping is 60 marines (and flier support). That is literally 3 squads of Serpents.

The only time they do anything in bulk is void battles, and even then thats only relative.

I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding, if not ask away.

1: using the actors as a basis, I can see Raydon sounding akin to Titus Pullo.
youtube.com/watch?v=pj8yq_urL5c&t=2m35s

Actually he has a bit in common with ol' Titus.

2: The Fists provide a lot of logistics to the Hawks and allow them sanctuary in Forgespace, hosting their Star-Fort which doubles as a Fortress Monastery. The two have developed extremely close ties since the Heresy.

The Hawks attempt to pay their way, by giving the Fists prize loot they recover from their raids.

So they see them as honoured brothers in summary.

But they don't just wander around the galaxy in groups of 60, surely. And even if they do, those are still really just particularly small chapters. The Warhawks split into distinct groups just like everybody else does.

Also it's not like ANYBODY wants to break up their legions into chapters. Nobody wants to suddenly have less power. It's an issue that's forced because it's necessary, not because people think 'well jee golly that's a swell idea let me just cripple my military might.' It's argued over heavily, it's enforced by threat of war, and it's a serious matter.

If the Warhawks don't split, why would literally anyone else agree to do it?

Plus, from a narrative perspective. Not founding successors means they're always just Warhawks. That's boring. With successors, they can have all sorts of divergent and interesting paint schemes, tactical deviations, cultural differences, etc.

I agree with Alexios. How would anyone, especially the Fists of Mars, be alright with the Warhawks not splitting up? Nobody would stand for it.

Even if you say that they're split, but they all call themselves Warhawks, that doesn't change anything. Guiliman specifically mentioned that only one of the chapters can use the original heraldry. Splitting the marines not only militarily, but culturally as well is a vital point of the Codex Astartes. (I'm assuming Alexios' Codex is identical to Guiliman's, or are there differences?)

>especially the Fists of Mars
But the fists themselves don't split into chapters

I mean they kind of do with the masters of different planets and it gets weird with rolling the mech into their political formation but still

>thats boring
Well maybe not for him?
I guess if its not your brand of fun it doesnt count.

>if the hawks dont agree why would anyone

Uhm not everyone does? Serpents, fists, and kor dont.

Also dont they spend all their time in the dark imperium as pirates? How are you going to force them?

>enforced by threat of war
alexios trying to force his shit on people again. Its why he was booted from thehektor heresy.

Woah guys no need to jump down his throat.

I guess the question becomes: 'Is the Codex Astartes a thing?'

I'd personally vote in favor, so that sucessor chapters can be a thing and the like. I'd get rid of the 1000 marines requirement though.

Let's also try to not make things personal.

The way it had been before this thread was that Alexios (the character) brought it up and tried to get it pushed through as common doctrine.

Some Legions were more responsive than others. Typically if they had a reason to disregard it, they did. If they thought it had merit, they adopted it. The Serpents took some and threw out the rest.

In the OU the opinions were mixed as well. It doesn't really matter to which degree they follow it, as long as it allows for successors to be created.

Not every ou has successors though. Salamanders and wolves dont.

That's not entirely true. The Space Wolves have one confirmed one, though it got wrecked. The fact that the Deathwatch chapter creation table even mentions the possibility of Space Wolf successors tells me that there are atleast some.

The Salamanders might have some, but that's never been confirmed. By the time of the second founding, the Salamanders didn't even have enough to fill one chapter, let alone create a second one.

>technicalities - they still don't have successors

And the Black Templars? How are they allowed more than the magic number?

Now we know which legion's dna grows there peckers and who's using steroids.

We already sorted this out, some of us are in chapters others arnt

By being spread out and never coming together. That way nobody can prove they're with more than a 1000. Doesn't really matter, they're second founding.

Like I said, the numbers are unimportant. All I'm saying is, is that the first founding legions should split into chapters, just to allow for cool successors. The actual numbers don't matter.

I think we should let him do it however he wants. If its just for fluff reasons they why can't you just talk about warbands or whatever?

We sorted this out fairly early. Not everyone wants to abide by Alexioses shitty codex.

Way I see it, the Crusader States and their forces are in various levels of Codex compliance:

>Angels of Light
Fully Codex compliant. Their Primarch wrote the book, they followed it to the letter. They've split entirely into Successor Chapters and have by far the most of them.

>Storm Hammers
Somewhat compliant. One of the major reasons for the particularly fractious state of the Storm Kingdoms is that the Hammers and their successors have never been able to agree on the matter of the Codex. Some of the Kingdoms are run by alliances of fully compliant Chapters. Some by Chapters that agree on the successor system but disagree on matters of composition and size, making them huge by Codex standards. Some are run by elements of the Legion itself that thought the entire Codex was total poppycock and refused to split entirely.

>Sky Serpents
Pretend compliant. The Sky Serpents always had semi-autonomous Tzolkin Chapters. Now they have more of them, but ultimately, they still consider themselves Sky Serpents and will rally with the Legion.

>Undying Scions
Pretend compliant, like the Sky Serpents. The Undying Scions agreed that power over Astartes should be decentralized, but the Scions themselves remain and lower Legion strength, with their successor Chapters often going beyond Codex limitations.

>Paladins of Kor
Non-compliant. Renegades and heretics, burn them!

>Fists of Mars
Non-compliant. Don't... don't burn them yet. They have the tanks.

>Crimson Warhawks
Non-compliant. It's not over, it's never over!

>Void Lords
Sorta compliant? They've split into lesser fleets to better terrorize the enemy, but they're all still Void Lords.

>Broken Blades
What's the Codex Astartes?

>let him do it however he wants
well that sounds like a good idea /s

Exactly. The idea of forcing them to be compliant by force is ludicrous. When half a non-compliant and the other half only pretends to care - they certainly aren't going to go to war with Fists of Mars and the Crimson Warhawks over something like that.

I think we're just talking past eachother at this point. Forcing the Codex is stupid and the Legions have varying levels of compliance.
The only really good thing the Codex does is allow for successors with different cultures and heraldry, which can allow for interesting stories, but having successors of some sort doesn't mean the legion itself has to be Codex compliant.
has the right idea

Maybe it should just be called Armistice?

Yeah, and to be a bit clearer, before Xun, they're very much the refined barbarians, since they don't have that central cultural influence. They keep that reputation after Xun in no small part due to the degree of difference between them and gothic standard culture. That's part of why Alexios' patronizing attitude towards his little brother grates so. That bit in that story about the duel with Eulodius captures it pretty well.

I suppose you might say that the barbarian stuff is what the Serpents themselves bring to the table. Chain axes and all that. They're sort of the opposite of the Bloodhounds.

And yeah, I'm trying to riff on the depiction of the White Scars and am having trouble writing it well. They're decentralized, not uncoordinated.

I agree completely.
I'd been imagining Alexios tries to push compliance and it doesn't get far. There's varying degrees of acceptance. And of course, as any good Jade Empire historian will tell you, Xun's Art of War is older than Alexios' codex.
I think it should be an issue at the Council of Titans, though. One of those points of divergence.

That could work.

Okay so, Silent Sisters.

I'm thinking the whole order is simply referred to as the Ordo Telepathica, on account of how they pretty much deal with the inner workings and the maintenance of the Astra Telepathica.

Their hierarchy is something like this:

1. The Order Silentium. The top dogs, they run the entire show. They are the Sisters of Silence, and are 100% nulls.

2. The Black Abbeys. Each Black Abbey is run by an Matriarch, who is a Silent Sister, and a contingent of the Order Silentium. These are the centers for training, distribution, and testing, not only for members of the Ordo Telepathica but also the Astra Telepathica. Each Abbey has a number of Orders that serve under its purview.

3. Individual Orders. These can be Orders Militant, Orders Pronatus, Orders Dialogous, or Orders Antumbras. Usually one of each of these main Orders is grouped into a Chapel, and assigned to a particular noble house of the Astra Telepathica. They offer their services, but also watch for signs of corruption, and are a constant reminder that the Astra Telepathica's wealth and power is predicated on their service to Mankind.

How's this for Graha'nak?

Seems pretty good to me.

On the subject of the Void Lords, I have to admit I still don't really get them. Are they loyalist Night Lords with more heavy ordinance?

Btw, what's going in with the wiki? Lots of links have gone someone has been added to the Primarch list.

Scratch that, I was on the wrong page. We should really get rid of that mirrored version.

Yeah they terrormarines pretty much. They do the whole shock and awe, psychological warfare thing.

They're more xenomorph Mehreens than edgy Dracula Mehreens though. They're at least partially specialized in close quarters and void support, doing a lot of boarding actions and such.

I'd been imagining that the process behind their terror is different from the Night Lords. The brutality of their judgement makes the Night Lords nihilists. The Void Lords start at that core of horror and go Nietzschean from there.

I'd also been imagining them as being the sort to bring in close range firepower. Sudden ambushes. A lot more like the Carcharodons in addition to the recorded screams.

Yeah, they actually made me think of Carcharodons before Night Lords.

Delightfully deadly. I do want to compare him to Corax and Kurze for balance, though.

So then legion rules wise, what are we thinking?

For comparison:
LA: Night Lords gives
Night vision
+1 to wound? When you outnumber someone
Pinning on death of the hq
Option to fall back instead of being pinned
5+ cover turn one

LA: Raven Guard gets you
Infiltrate or furious charge by unit
At the cost of tanks

40k RG
Boost to jump packs
Turn one stealth

40k Carcharodon
Cheaper melee weapons
Fear
Rage after you destroy that first unit.

So taking the Carcharodon vibe,

How about something like:
Fear
Rage after destroying a first unit
PE when within 12 inches of an enemy

The drawback is...
Something about more infantry? They can't decide to fail a test?

Right, so terror over horror?
Where the Night Lords skulk around and assassinate, the Void Lords rush out of the darkness and drag you into it, screaming and bleeding?

Pretty much, yeah.
Void Lord's spirit animal is the Xenomorph. They're unconcerned about justice, terror is what they are.

I also think a big part of it is Graha'Nak and the legion trial, which consists of pumping an aspirant full of scarecrow juice and seeing if they beat the crap out of their nightmares or not. Psychologically, I think it means that they're comfortable in that space and don't have the sadism of the Night Lords because they really don't care about you. If the terror enlightens you, great, otherwise you're just an object to be removed with all the emotion that a meteor gives to the planet that it smashes.
The universe is cold, brothers. Liberate tutame.

Could take LD tests on 3d6, take lowest.

Thanks.

Let's see...

>The Red Joy
Sky Serpents delight in their work. They are laughing killers, for what better thing can there be than excellence matched against excellence?
However, all this is overlay upon the deeper impulses in the Sky Serpents psyche. The Red Thirst equivalent. It really needs a better name, but Red Thirst is just so good, you know?
Most of the time, it manifests as a blood-hunger in battle, anything to get the red flowing, but violence and destruction at their most primal level drive the marine.
An infamous example is a duel during Ullanor, when a Sky Serpents praetor, after wounding a warboss, discarded his power sword and proceeded to beat the Ork to death with his gauntlets over the course of several minutes.

Typically, this sort of behavior can be controlled through the odd sacrificial rituals of Tepectitlan, including the infamous heart sacrifice, but also including devotional acts of shedding ones own blood. (Ala Mesoamerica.)

These unsavory rituals, which range from sacrifice of live captives to what outsiders see as ritual desecration of enemy remains, contribute greatly to the legion's dark reputation.

Usually, this keeps everything in line, though unintentional massacres of civilians in combat zones are far from unheard of.

This contrasts with the phase II, which I'm thinking of as some sort of psychic curse put on the legion by Anshul. It involves aspects of a flesh change and the brother in question becomes increasingly feral. Historically, marines in this state sometimes were posessed by Khorne, but lately the Serpents have taken to sanctifing them with Seraphim, in a holy fire ritual. Unlike the Oceyolotl (who are the Gal Vorbak equivalent), the Seraphim are lost to their rage and are sent to die in combat.

The legion generally keeps them secret, though I would assume the other legions know that Anshul did something nasty to them. Like how people know that the black rage is a thing, but no details.

So basically, I'm thinking at Prospero, Xun and Anshul have a duel, an inconclusive one, but in the process, Anshul somehow marks the legion, tapping the aetheric energy of Prospero itself.

When a legionary falls into the Blood Hunger, they can further fall into the flesh-change. It starts like a curse of the wulfen deal, with the marine growing longer fangs and taking on more jaguar traits. They also become more animalistic. If it runs it's full course, they eventually devolve into chaos spawn, but they seldom make it that long, since they're sent into battle to die a good death like the Death Company.
However, this state leaves them open to possession, which the Asurans exploited on a few occasions, turning the assaulting Serpents back against their former comrades.
In response, the Serpents have taken to proactively possessing them with Seraphim, but this is top secret and does little to actually stabilize the brother's behavior.
They fight and kill until they join the Legions of the Damned as demonic Jaguars of the Emperor.

So basically, they've got the flaw of the Blood Angels. It drives them to greatness, but at the end of the day, there's a chance that they'll lose everything they've made of themselves and turn into a raging beast.

This almost feels like the Iron Cage of our Heresy.

>dare you enter my Magical Duel?
>whoops, it was a trap, now you're cursed
>problem, Xun?

I like this.
Maybe he lures Xun down into the reflecting caves on the pretext that he'll explain what is going on, since Anshul believes that once Xun knows about the true nature of Chaos, Xun will join him.

So Xun goes down to the reflecting caves, to meet Anshul and send his message.
The two forces meet under parley, like the Night Lords and the Dark Angels do in that one story. Across the surface and in orbit, the two legions stand facing each other. There's even some friendly chatter across lines, but mostly everyone waits.
Xun sends his message, which is part of the traitor plan anyway and then he has his talk with Anshul. Suffice it to say that it doesn't go well.
There's a grippy vision of a thousand different heresies, ones where the roles are reversed, ones where Anshul and Xun stand united against a mad Oramar, ones where Xun bears the sigil of the Wolf and Anshul has but one eye, ones where the Warmaster is named Hektor.
And then they start fighting, the planet itself becomes unstable.
The two legions tear into each other, the world quakes.
Both have to leave the planet and because of Anshul's trap, the price of Xun's escape is the curse on his legion. It's the taint of Prospero and they're forever intertwined with that world.
That's why Xun goes there, thousands of years later, to ascend.

Something like that?

I wasn't really talking about codex compliance at all. I don't care if warhawks fight in groups of 60 or 5000, or whatever.

All I'm saying is, I want to be able to sit down and think "Okay let's write a _________ successor chapter for fun" and insert any loyalist legion.

Just have them use names they make for their groups and use tactics they picked up from where they fight and use what gear they looted from their piracy

>ones where the Warmaster is named Hektor.

Seems good enough to me. Maybe heretical, but not bad.

Thanks anons for the support, but lets as Jobs says no need to get personal.

I like it.

Seems familiar, pic related haha.
This is what happens when I shamelessly steal ideas from HH.

A Heresy you helped to build, I might add.

Hah. Well, I guess there's only so many ways to stat down sneaky Primarchs.

>Typically, this sort of behavior can be controlled through the odd sacrificial rituals of Tepectitlan, including the infamous heart sacrifice, but also including devotional acts of shedding ones own blood. (Ala Mesoamerica.)

So maybe ripping out Rubinek's heart saved Xun from the temptation of chayoss and pulled him out of the Beast Within?

Really? That's what sets you off? Not any of the other alternatives?

I like it, though I am curious to see what the LA Warhawks look like. Heck, their Row, too, since I'd think they'd have a way of making sure their planes came in on time without the primarch being present. Not that it really matters, fan rules seek to be universally despised.

Remove infiltrate and blinding speed, add deep strike into assault and the shining spear ability to deep strike again at will.

**BZZZZT**
"SAVE YOURSELVES!"
*CRUNCH*
*BZZZZZZT*

I got a couple answers for this question in the last thread but I'm not certain everyone saw it. Thoughts?

Paradoxically the point where he was closest to falling also provided a means to prevent not only himself but his sons from falling also.

Pretty much giving the drop pod assault rule to fliers to ensure some come in on turn 1.
I think I did something else as well, but I can't seem to find my old document. I did a purge recently and might have deleted it.

What about allowing for multiple deepstrikes and doing a bubble of terror upon arrival / in combat.

Something like -3 to Ld tests as an aura, and causes enemy units within 6 or 12 inches of his deep strike to test Ld or go-to-ground. Or maybe move towards nearest board edge, or away from him.

Have him do the same terror test if he destroys a unit in combat or beats someone in a challenge.

Rules that emphasis his ability to materialise and scare the ever loving shit out of everyone.

I imagine that if they were there, they'd have to keep it a secret, because otherwise everyone would be wondering what the fuck they're doing there.

That said, if we're still going with Space Nun Initiates Imperial Waaagh! for the 13th Crusade then the other Crusader States should be getting pretty suspicious about what's on Amaranth when she emerges with the Burning Blade. Maybe not suspicious enough to overcome the initial rush of religious fervor at the sight of a spess nun wielding the Emperor's own sword, but given time, there might be questions.

The biggest issue I can think of is if you told the Custodes about him they would straight up demand to be in control. They wouldn't let anyone else be in control of the planet his body was kept on.

Im thinking they'd want to turn it into new-terra, where they have ultimate authority akin to the imperial palace. And if you tried to deny them, they would go to EVERYONE that would listen and the secret would at best be out.

>The ???th Crusade (early, 4th? 5th?)
Rumors spread among the Crusader states (by REDACTED agents of course, just as keikaku) that the Scions actually managed to recover the Emperor's body long ago at the Fall of Terra. Every political leader in the whole of the East, from navigator houses to the high primarchs, is pissed at them for keeping such a thing from them. Varying claims are made that one faction or another should keep it.

When the rumors reach Alexios' ears (who by now is in deep seclusion) he immediately orders the Angels to gather as many Custodes as possible. Alexios presses the Custodes' claim to the Holy Sepulchur, in diplomatics at first, but eventually in warfare. He makes political waves by declaring that he will not assume high command of the war effort, but instead abdicate authority to the Captain-General of the Custodes, Amon Taramachian.

War between crusader states explodes like WW1, where networked alliances draw in all kinds of co-belligerents. Engerand sides with the Custodes out of idealism, angry at the Scions for keeping secrets. Xun sides with the Vigil, claiming that keeping such things secret with the Eyes of the Warmaster watching was a good idea, though really he just opposes Alexios because Imperium Minorum is his empire's largest rival. The Broken Blades stay to hold the tempestus front in case of an attack by the Warmaster, though politically they mostly side with the Scions out of fraternity. the brain of Marcus Sinistrum is consulted, and his binauric cant tells his Forgespace to stay neutral, trading forged munitions to both sides so that they could grow strong while others became weak.

TEAM 1: The Undyielding Vigil
Bigass Armada
Undying Scions with dreads
Sky Serpents and their Jade Empire
Lots of battle-hardened Vigil soldiers
????

TEAM 2: The Adeptus Custodes
Angels of Light successors aplenty
Varangir guard and other Imperium Minorum regiments
Some (but not all) of the Storm Kingdoms
????

>Gather the Custodes
What by force? The last thread had them telling the Primarchs as a whole to fuck off, why would they suddenly listen to a chapter master telling them to abandon their posts?

Because the emperors body is not being guarded properly what do you hair want heretics to come by and draw all manner of profane imagery over his tomb

If it matters at all, I had written that the leader of the Custodes now was titled "Lord-Commander" (thought the actual title doesnt matter too much. I also like Knight-Captain)
Because by the Emperors own words, only he can raise one to be the Captain-General, and since he is dead, the position can't be filled by anyone.

Small thing I know, but I think its cool to have a sort of regency for them, as they cling tightly to the Emperors original will.

I think Alexios is saying they go to the leader of the Custodes and let him in on the secret, so they don't command the custodes through force nor diplomacy - just bring the issue to light and back their own claim.

On topic, how do you see this ending? Do they find the body, is it moved to prevent discovery and then the Scions call out Alexios as warmongering etc, like how do you see this ending, not necessarily who wins, but whats the fall out.

I lie. I wrote it as Lieutenant Commander.

As I said though, the actual title is irrelevant. Its just a ceremonial thing that when Malcador appoints a new Captain-General he refuses the position saying that only the Emperor can name him that. So Malc says well fuck then, I dub thee XYZ

Yeah, the guardianship of lighthouses pales in comparison to the Emperor's remains, in the Custodes eyes. The Custodes by then would already be clamboring around, claiming they should have it. Suddenly Alexios shows up and backs them, and then shit is on for real.

>If it matters at all, I had written that the leader of the Custodes now was titled "Lord-Commander" (thought the actual title doesnt matter too much. I also like Knight-Captain)
>Because by the Emperors own words, only he can raise one to be the Captain-General, and since he is dead, the position can't be filled by anyone.
That's cool, I like it.

>how do you see this ending?
That's what I'd like to discuss. Hold on I'm drawing a map.

I think it would be better to build his rules to synergize with the LA rules would be more fruitful.

I like where this is going.
Though I can't really imagine anyone actually daring to fight Custodes. I think the symbolism of the Custodes is that powerful.
I'm imagining a weird scene where the Serpents are fighting the Angels and a Custodian appears and they just stop fighting. Yes, the Custodes failed, but they stood in his light. They serve the realm faithfully to this day. To take arms against them is heresy.

(Then again, if I read right, there was already a small squad of Custodes at the vault, so I'm really thinking that the Custodes are being spoken for by the legions and don't actually make an appearance until the end.

>Hold on I'm drawing a map.
Perfect Alexios.

"We have war plans to discuss"
"shhh almost finished my map"
"but my lord, the orks are approaching"
"almost..."
"my lord, they are at the gates"
"almost...."
"They have breached the city!"
"done! what? oh yeah send more jetbikes"
"As you command, my lord."

>The March of Angels
The Angels make a new #th founding, chartering a whole bunch of new chapters for the war effort and mustering quickly. They move a sizeable force westward into the Vigil in what is called the March of Angels. Battles in this front are mostly rapid-assault jetbike forces conquering worlds, then Varangir auxiliaries building forts with void shields to hold those worlds. This front moves very fast.

>The Grey Wastes
The Grey Stars are a clusterfuck of loyalties that are intermixed like oil and water. War breaks out and almost everyone is fighting multiple enemies independently, with very little unity of command. This front is fucking hell.

>The Stormfront
Many of the Kingdoms of the Storm in the north choose to side with the Custodes, and when the Jade Empire declares for the Vigil, the Storm Hammers and their auxiliary squires attack. Lots of very serious large-scale battles between two Astartes nation-states at the height of their strength.

...

The two ideas I think are mutually exclusive.

You can't have them being guarding the remains AND later find out the that the Scions have it.

As I posted here if you give them knowledge about it (which is fine) then they would want a big contingent on the planet, and would want authority over the tomb in the same way they have authority over the Palace. Maybe even extending to the entire planet.

If we go with a contingent guarding the body the whole time, I think it makes more sense to keep the Custodes out of the battle. The Lieutenant Commander is already the Speaker/Consul for the "Securium Councilatus" (Not actual name, name pending) so he would be able to bog down discussion fairly effectively.

Which might be another reason it escalates to war.
But in this scenario, the Custodes wouldn't take to battle - they would remain 'neutral' but secretly would have known all along and are just trying to figure out how to make the whole situation go away.

I think we should forget the suggestion that they were guarding it already.

The end state of the war, I think, should be that the Custodes are given command over the catacomb planet where the Emperor's remains are kept, and they guard it 4eva after. We can call it the Holy Sepulcher.

Grey wastes description doesn't match up with the map unless im wrong?

Description says its confused with everyone fighting everyone but the map has only the serpents and vigil who are on the same side?

Well ill wait out on Sarco in that case, I know we don't have any rules and such about how to determine what is in and what is out, but I think as he posted his version of events first we should wait before just overriding it. Get his opinion/amendments.

>Holy
>For a king of of men
Silly religious folk.

Holy just means separate or different. Holy Sepulcher essentially means "THE Sepulcher"

What really? No way. For reals?
Is this another case of words changing there meaning over time?

What. I actually can't even. Imma google this.

>Get his opinion/amendments
I'd like it if the crusade didn't really amount to anything, because as we've already mentioned, the 13th crusade starts when some avatar comes to Amaranth ostensibly to have an audience with Sarco (despite his vegetative state) and emerges with the Burning Blade.

>Silly religious folk
I'm sure that a crusade such as this would cement the Scions' negative opinion of religion and also reinforce why they need to keep the Emperor's body: to keep others from using it as a figurehead and (in their minds) disrespecting the ideals that Emps fought for.

I'm thinking the war is bloody and violent and expends a lot of built up steam in the crusader states. In the end, everyone is a lot leaner, but still standing.

The idea really just came about as a way of thinking how the Custodes got to the state where they were guarding the Emperor's tomb, so I don't think our ideas are mutually exclusive at all. I'm just trying to build off of it.

Also if the Angels and Custodes fight alongside one another maybe Alexios can learn how they make those awesome flying rhinos.

Taking away from these and unifying all of them.

1. Warmaster tricks people into thinking that someone / scions have the body
2. Alexios learns about it goes to custode captain and is like, lets get this mofo
3. Custode is overtly like 'for sure' lets go through the proper channels
4. Custode secretly sabotages proper channels having been apart of hiding the body on amarath
5. On amarath the body is held in a tomb city under the total authority of the custodes. the even sarco is considered below them when in the city.
6. War breaks out as Alexios gets fed up with bureaucracy
7. everyone picks a side, Custodes stay neutral but secretly work to get the body out of amarath so that should it fall, they wont be implicated in the discovery
8. Once this has been done, the Scions call for an end to the fighting, being like "hey bro, come have a look we arent hiding anything *shifty eyes* - Alexios, and a few custodes go to investigate the planet. Find nothing.
9. Once its over either the body is taken back to amarath or set up in a super-secret super-defended planet and authority is given over to the Custodes.

The problem with the later is now instead of a small contingent secretly guarding the body, now you would have a large contingent that previously had another job - they would just disappear, which is a cause for serious alarm. So I think its better to return the body and small detachment.

People have said they aren't cool with the Custodes actually going to battle.

>People have said they aren't cool with the Custodes actually going to battle.

But it's so cool though. How can soldiers be cool if they never fight anybody?

Huh. That might be a bit odd, since the Serpents would want to venerate the Emperor. Which would piss off the Scions.

Fight the traitors?
I'm thinking you might have something funky go down when Anders murders Alexios. Does Alexios run with his Custodian Guard? Or do they not roll out for internal matters?

>1. Warmaster tricks people into thinking that someone / scions have the body
Except it's not a trick
>2. Alexios learns about it goes to custode captain and is like, lets get this mofo
>3. Custode is overtly like 'for sure' lets go through the proper channels
cool
>4. Custode secretly sabotages proper channels having been apart of hiding the body on amarath
>5. On amarath the body is held in a tomb city under the total authority of the custodes. the even sarco is considered below them when in the city.
I was actually suggesting the body was housed on a world other than Amaranth, a quiet secluded place that doesn't have people everywhere. A hidden shrineworld.
>6. War breaks out as Alexios gets fed up with bureaucracy
>7. everyone picks a side, Custodes stay neutral but secretly work to get the body out of amarath so that should it fall, they wont be implicated in the discovery
>8. Once this has been done, the Scions call for an end to the fighting, being like "hey bro, come have a look we arent hiding anything *shifty eyes* - Alexios, and a few custodes go to investigate the planet. Find nothing.
I don't like this ending. I was kinda thinking the Emperor's Tombworld would become the senate planet, run by the custodes. Like maybe before then nobody could really decide on a good place.

The reason for the custodes to go into battle should be very serious as in do or die

>someone stole the Emperor's body from us and hid it for centuries
>not serious
they'd be so fucking pissed dude

The Primarchs / Heads of state SHOULD NOT have a Custode bodyguard. That is a horrible idea.

They should be protecting the Lighthouses / Emperors tomb, and having their leader in the senate/council thing.

The Scions wouldn't refuse help from the Serpents, but they wouldn't tell them that they actually have the corpse for the same reason that they resist Alexios' demands to check. Speaking of, it's probably pretty privileged information that the big E is on Amaranth, so only members of the High Council even know that he wasn't lost on Terra.

agree

Except that as and Sarco have it, the Custodes know about it.

They wouldn't be mad at all, they would be annoyed that others found out.

I'd go the next step and say no-one outside of the guards & key Scion personnel should know. It should be a huge mystery as to how the Warmaster found out.