>Player turns enemy into animal
>Plans on keeping them as a pet.
Is it just me or is that kind of fucked up? I always hear the argument that it's a hell of a lot nicer than killing them, but like, by that logic isn't slavery nicer?
Should this be considered an evil action?
It should be considered a lethally erotic action.
also yes
Magical Realm thread?
I mean...in a lot of settings slavery isn't automatically evil. Prison time, where you do work isn't evil either....It's similar, in a way.
No, fuck off.
Well those kind of imply the character will eventually be turned back or freed. Pulling a Salem from Sabrina is probably fine, but permanently keeping them as a pet is actually more dehumanizing than prison (literally)
It's more like prison time, lobotomy, having your tongue cut out all at once.
Yup, polymorphing is messed up, mindbreaking opponent into complete obedience is a noble man's choice. Cute dresses optional.
Also potentially forgetting who you were, what you did, and that you were ever a person in the first place.
If you're taking it absolutely seriously, then yes it's fucked up.
But if it's a more lighthearted campaign, it can be fucking hilarious. To have a pet that shits all over the floor and eats all your best reagents and stares at you with burning eyes of hatred every waking moment of its day but you keep the little fucker around anyway because it's funny. Especially when the bastard saves you from doom because it wants to be the one to kill you.
I play pathfinder, and I don't remember seeing anything about people loosing memories, is that a thing in a lot of other games?
It's like prison. People get sent to prison - even life sentences with no parole- all the time.
Next you'll be reading In Defense of Flogging.
Rolemaster, Shadowrun, GURPS, FATE....yes, it's a thing in most games with magic.
>Should this be considered an evil action?
Keeping as a pet isn't evil.
Slaughtering them for a barbecue is evil.
Inviting their friends and family to said barbecue is ridiculously evil and hilarious.
In 3.5 a creature had to make a Will save every 24 hours it was transformed or "it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form."
It's also implied in the Pathfinder version. Fail the Will save and your mental stats drop to the animal's. Not explicitly stated, but the memory loss could be inferred when your wisdom/intelligence drops to 2 or 3.
>Keeping as a pet isn't evil.
What if I ability damaged them to the point of animal level intelligence and took away all their clothes and possessions, not allowing them to see their friends and family while I keep them in a cage where they shit in a box and eat only when fed. I also never plan on releasing them.
I don't know a lot of other people who'd think that was okay, but somehow, once a characters been turned into an animal, its totally fine.
I'm just playing devils advocate here, but you gotta admit it's kinda interesting.
Isn't that what Circe did to people?
I think polymorph is usually seen as better because its an all at once thing. You use it as self defense and you're left wondering what to do with the housecat after the battle.
The other method seems like you'd need to deliberately go at it with having a slave/pet in mind. Like making them stupid and then capturing them, undressing them, locking them up. you've pretty much lost your ability to argue it's self defense or even a reasonable thing to do at all.
You are literally turning a human brain into a much smaller, different shape, size and capacity form. The "you" before that transformation is pretty much gone unless the spell specifically places the electric currents firing through your neurons or whatever at the exact moments they were when you were transformed back.
The electric currents that keep your memories alive are all probably gone or worse, shooting randomly around a different brain stem.
Turning into an animal would completely destroy everything you were as both a human and even as the animal. The memory runs on electric nerve charges, fucking with them in anyway is the easiest way to erase a creatures mind entirely. After that all you would have is inbuilt instinct and some muscle memory.
Bottom line, changing the shape of someone's brain pretty much destroys their personality and erases their memories entirely.
This is why I'm glad that in 5e you can't polymorph a creature for more than an hour until you get True Polymorph at a minimum of level 17.
Okay but what about when someone gets turned back? Why would that restore your memories?
>Should this be considered an evil action?
Does the spell have the Evil descriptor? No? Then it's not evil. Check and mate.
>"I light the city on fire"
>"user what the fuck that's evil"
>"Fireball doesn't HAVE the evil descriptor, Check and mate."
Reminds me of something I saw in another thread, went something like:
>Fighter bleeding out
>Wizard rushes to help
>About to cast "infernal healing"
>Fighter stops him
>"Motherfucker that's EVIL healing. Get the fuck out of here with that shit.
>Fighter dies.
Thanks for proving my point further.
That's partially the point I was making, unless the Spell specifically takes that aspect of your brain into account, being turned human from an animal will lead to a blank human, devoid of the memories and personality that they developed over time.
So, is permanently altering someone's mind an evil act?
Is that the same as forcibly changing their soul?
Surely that's evil.
>Using real world as ruling for fantasy.
This is a terrible way to play anything. Plus your idea only works in this context
It doesn't explain something like this.
Or what if I play a druid? Do I destroy my identity every time I wildshape? What about minor buffs to intelligence? Would be throwing my brain chemistry way off and become a new person?
I think this has more to do with the metaphysical aspect of a spell. If someone turns you into a housecat, then a couple years down the line it get's reversed it doesn't matter what happened in the intervening years, you've still got a sapient soul so everything mind wise should just slot back together.
>Characters should become amnesiac retards whenever they transform
Well that's one way of killing fun in a group. I understand the logic, but I don't think it's very sound. In worlds where people CAN just turn each other into animals because MAGIC, why shouldn't the magic be capable of preserving the consciousness in the new body as well?
Maybe the soul can act as a retainer for your consciousness and memories if your mind becomes damaged or altered, so when reversed you can reassume them.
Yes but she was a sexist about it
You guys keep them as pets?
We always use it as a debuff before killing or soul jarring them...
Wildshape specifically keeps the druid's mental stats instead of substituting them with that of the new form.
At least, that's explicit in 5e
But by this guys logic shouldn't the brain adjust to the new form anyways? otherwise it will be weirdly out of sync with the rest of the body, or crushed by the creatures skull if you assume a smaller form.
>Playing a witch
>Got pointy hat, broom and cauldron
>Find out that DM banned polymorph
>Can't turn people into frogs
>Ask why
>"Because anyone who wants to use those spells is clearly getting off to them"
>Suggests mind control instead
>THATS my fetish
How come everyonre immediately assumes polymorph is magical realm? It's annoying.
>How come everyonre immediately assumes polymorph is magical realm?
There's this one webcomic about teenaged witches (who are all hotties of course) polymorphing anybody who even slightly annoys them. And it's pretty internet-famous, too. That's where the assumption comes from.
Ok so turning them in to an animal for too long destroys their mind basically.
So I keep them as a pet cat and feed them and stroke them so they love me. What happens if I THEN turn them back in to a human? They don't remember they were originally a human so they just think they are my pet and still love me and want to be with me?
Not asking for any weird reasons, ha ha.
My party either eats them or sells them afterward for a little extra money, it's more profitable than a pile corpses.
They are literally no longer a human.
Wait are you saying murder is nicer than slavery? or that slavery is nicer than polymorphed pet?
It fucked me up as an adolescent when in Harry Potter they just casually transformed live animals into objects, or objects into animals.
What comic?
Wow. Fragile.
As far as I'm aware, even if not directly stated, MOST DMs and systems will assume that once the status is cured, the mind goes back to normal as well.
Our group usually has some stuff cross over, like when our party paladin got turned into a dog, he loved and protected us even after he lost his memories, he just had an inherent feeling that we were people he should care about. Similarly, he recognized the people who he considered enemies as a paladin, and would bark at them, sometimes bite, even if he couldn't remember anything they did or why he didn't like them.
Going in reverse I'd say the cat turned back into a human will have very fond memories of you caring for them, but with their intelligence returned, they could have the capacity to think on past memories (assuming they are still there) outweigh the time you spent caring for them as a cat, such as, if you were the one who did it to them, all that feeling of appreciation would probably become embarrassment and anger that you treated them that way. Alternatively, if it was a truly nice experience, and you turned them back, they can view their time with you as showing that you have a great deal of mercy and kindness in your heart and maybe they continue to love you anyways. It should depend on the person and how much they originally hated you.
Neither is a corpse but it's how it got to that state that's important.
I think what he means is that saying it's better than killing someone isn't really an argument for it being a good thing. Slavery should theoretically be nicer than killing someone, but slavery is still evil.
>more dehumanizing than prison (literally)
>They are literally no longer a human.
That's the joke.
>Today, class of 12 year olds, you're going to personally kill a passive captured rat by turning it into a cup.
>Damnit Weasley, looks like you made a half-living suffering abomination. Use a different stance next time.
>Oh, and did anyone want to know where kittens come from? Find out next class when you get to forge their tiny souls out of wood.
>"Because anyone who wants to use those spells is clearly getting off to them"
nobody said that ever
Not his exact words, I changed it for the sake of the story, but he told a story about how a player he had was really creepy about it and he basically just said he thinks the spells are fetishy.
Are the mind and the soul the same? Are people morally accountable for acts they can't remember? There are two possibilities:
1: Yes, they are. The soul is independent of the current state of mind and continues holding onto all traits done by the bodies it's occupied in the past. In that case you could damn someone by making them forget misdeeds they've done. It would also lead to a complete disconnect between alignment and behavior - you could produce people who act and think in purely good ways but ping as evil, and vice-versa.
2. No, they aren't. The mind and soul are one. In that case, forgetting is a redemptive force, since it's only wrong if you remember it. Similarly, false memories would count just as much as true ones in correctly evaluating someone. Pursuing justice for an act that a person no longer remembers would be wrong. Mind control and other compulsions would not render someone less responsible for their actions.
Both options lead to some pretty repugnant conclusions, which is why most people never give the matter much thought.
That's tricky line of discussion because all forms of learning and "personal growth" involve permanently alter both what and how you think.
Is it morally wrong to be a teacher? What about a role model?
>forcibly
Is it morally wrong to be an evangelist? Or a missionary?
Do you find it morally aprensible to persuade someone with a convincing argument?
If the arguee was wrong? If the arguer is wrong?
What if they are both wrong?
Related to your question, OP, is the opposite also an Evil act?
You've thrust an innocent animal into the realm of moral agency and personal responsibility, with which it has no prior experience. It's so new to being sapient that it's going to be more gullible than the actual dumbest person on the planet.
With all this shit about animals, what do you do for people turned to stone or into objects?
>turned to stone
Well, that depends.
They might really be dead, they might be in suspended animation, they might be alive and aware but trapped - they might even be "alive and aware, but from a statue's perspective."
Imagine suddenly becoming aware that the only thing you had to do to fulfill your purpose was BE. Knowing that you would outlast all of the mortals who admired you, running around with all of their endless, unquenchable NEEDS for food and water and air and space. The only space you need is the space you stand in, the only water you need is the water used to keep you clean. The collector/gallery/gorgon thinks they/it own you, but in truth you're the one who owns their/everyone's attention. Everyone's love. When you get bored, you don't have to "find something to do," you can just go blank for a while and you won't even be shirking any responsibilities by doing so.
Come to think of it, wouldn't animated objects rather enjoy their jobs? So much indecision comes from not knowing what to do with yourself, or not knowing what you want to do. So for them to have something they were made for, something they were perfectly suited for. That'd be rather satisfying, wouldn't it?
I got you baby
...
>Kill a bandit
>Kill many more
>Bandit leader is gloating a top his palisade fortress
>Discuss setting it on fire
>Decide not to, it would burn down treasure and possible captives
>Cast stone to flesh on the corpses
>Throw corpses at Bandit leader and the tower he is standing on until he falls and dies
It works even better when you can "pose" the soon to be siege equipment to be easier to grab and throw. Also being an ogre mage helps.
...
...
...
Wasn't this made by the same guy who did the witch girl RPG? The one that used to do trasformation porn of these characters before he nuked that site to obvlivion?
To be fair, bad-end femdom transformations are the author's fetish, so this comic/setting/game is legitimately magical realm.
Correct. This is a promo for the game. Malcolm didn't do transformation porn of the WGA characters specifically. He ran a transformation-themed Poser porn site back in the late 1990s-early 2000s, and at least one of the characters shared a name with one of the teachers (I think) in WGA.
He also posted some bad-end transformation with Sabrina the Teenage Witch on fanfic.net using the same name that he used for his LJ account that he used to plug the game.
One of my players in did this in 3.5E and the entire group learned why they probably shouldn't do it. The player was very upset when we double and triple checked the rules and discovered that yes, Rogues do keep their Sneak Attack dice while Polymorphed.
Sorry bud. Roll up a new character unless you want to wait for someone else in the party to find your corpse and pay to bring you back.
Why not just cast it on the bandit leader? That seems like a massive inefficient (if incredibly hilarious) use of the spell
I had the same thing happen, but backwards.
>DM allows signature moves
>want to pull a Ginyu and be able to body swap
>says no because that's creepy
>lets me turn people into bugs and stomp them or turn them into objects and sell them/use them
Still don't know why he is so shook up over body swap though, it's all innocent fun, even Gilligan's Island did it.
How did you use it?
No, no. I think this Princess Lucinda was a recurring character from his pornier days. Even if there was no pornographic content of her in particular. Also, i think she looked way different, but i don't feel like trying to use the way back machine now.
Gorgon pls go, no one wants to be part of your sexy gallery.
I turned a thief into a pretty slug and kept her as a pet. Also wanted to turn one of the rival party members into a boot but I held myself back. Don't want to spook everyone, so I just used it for combat purposes and threats bar the slug incident.
That's more boring than throwing a barrage of statues shaped like Bat'Leths and one in a ballerina pose. So i think my solution is better.
He was pretty far away on top of a tower made of logs and wood surrounded by a palisade. That plus some remaining bandits defending from the wall if we tried to attack directly.
No way to attack him with offensive magic without causing collateral damage to the possible captives.
Many of them were wounded when the tower came crashing down, but that's beside the point.
maybe they were banning them because they were their fetishes and they didn't want to deal with the boners you would be giving them?
>Implying electrical impulses compose memories.
Memories, learning, etc. are stored by the strength of the connections between neurons. Electrical impulses through these connections are remembering/thinking and also strengthen the connections. That's how some memories are more vivid than others and why you have an easier time remembering something the more you think about it.
Could be, though body swap can be pretty OP, like swapping with a royal and getting the party into places they wouldn't get in normally.
Have the pet play nice, and at the critical moment, the pet fights back
The Fetish the Magi
>Could be, though body swap can be pretty OP, like swapping with a royal and getting the party into places they wouldn't get in normally.
That's when you make the fake royal have to bluff their way past everyone they encounter.
suck my dick you redhead whore
The party once adopted a monkey familiar from a death row inmate. He freaked most of them out with constant death glares and I constantly had him doing suspicious things that wound up being harmless. He was eventually gonna just stab one of them in the night.
And the now captive royal is in the body of either the mage or a deadly adventurer.
Except if you call a trustworthy commoner so he possesses your body while the royal ends up as a captive peasant.
Or, you think so. The commoner ran out with your/your friend's body so he could steal a fortune without the crime being traced to him/ beat up the local crime lord that is shaking him out of his money. While the peasant'd royal is now living a weird version of the "The prince and the pauper" tale and learning some humility
You could just tie down the body and have a party member or two watch it.
>implying
Nah, user. If I were going to go that far I'd also include Transmute Rock to Mud, resculpting, and then Transmute Mud to Rock, so any subject could make for fine art.
It's weird how the only other place I feel comfortable talking about this sort of thing is with my therapist.
>turn BBEG into common livestock
>make him live with other common livestock for 3 months
>fed
>watered
>pay stable boys to read to him and play checkers with him because he still has a humanoid intellect that needs stimulation
>After 3 months of peaceful living, detect to see fi he's still evil. If he's still evil then he's burger. If he done gone neutral you turn him back into humanoid and find him a job on a farm
It's not just Good, its Exalted.
You think that's bad? How about the players shrinking down a knight to the size of a mouse because "she's useless and nobody will miss her" and then keeping her as a naked pet.
I couldn't drop that game fast enough
Tiny girls make the best pets.
But how do you fuck them? Full sized mind broken slaves are clearly the better option.
Nigger put some air holes in that, she's gonna die
You don't ya dingus, they are pets, most you do is prod them.
It's a fairy, it'll be fine.
>Player turns enemy into animal
>moves to the frontier and marries it
>Player turns enemy into animal
>Falls in love
>Turns self into animal to be together.
Byoutiful
Le-lewd! [spolier] maybe mix two mud statues up and make something else, made them feel betrer for being part of a greater project. And we are all a bit strange, we just are more free to talk about these things here without people going crazy. [/spoiler]
Your spoiler tags need work, user.
It should be banned by whatever mage authority rules the land, any kind of transformative magic or else we get maniacs like
thinking they are great artists because instead of normal stone they use living stone and think they are happy being part of their crappy art projects, it's inhumane like keeping fairies pinned in place like a butterfly collection but without the sweet release of death.
At no point did I ever say my intentions were pure or wholesome. I merely put a positive-if-somewhat-depraved spin on the narrative, one that I did not even invent, but have found elsewhere and thoroughly enjoyed. I'm well aware of how dangerous someone who actually had that kind of power and that kind of desire would be.
Source?
I don't actually know. I just found it on Google once upon a time.
its inhumane as fuck but
>maybe they're into it
>D&D good/evil rules have NEVER been good or comprehensive
>also, maybe they're into it
>the only thing you had to do to fulfill your purpose was BE
this is basically my job irl and its a large source of anxiety/depression, if not at least poor job satisfaction because I don't really do much or have much impetus to actually go to work or try anything productive
t. reserve force military
idk about D&D but Eclipse Phase deals with switching bodies willy-nilly, and there's tables to roll on and shit to see how bad your dysmorphia is and how it manifests
your "intelligence" can be capped by the body you're in but it doesn't affect your knowledge or memories, just how fast you think and can retrieve or apply information you have.
And it should be banned by any sane court of mages.
It's like you're stupid or something.
>Becoming cuckalos
Better go fight steve or astalos so I can die.