/wmhg/ Warmahordes general

WARMACHINE/HORDES FACTION POWER RANKING

>God (S tier)
Cygnar, Khador

>Good (A tier)
Retribution, Circle

>Mid-High (B tier)
Mercs, Minions, Convergence

>Mid (C tier)
Menoth, Trolls, Legion

>Mid-Low (D tier)
Cryx

>Low (E tier)
Skorne

Wow, they really shook it up. If i remember, weren't legion and cryx at the top?

I don't play, but I have a friend who does so I pick up some of this stuff through proximity.

The thing about pre-measuring is that it was already in the game, just in a more complicated fashion.

So just making it official just smoothed things over, rather than drastically changing things.

About the biggest difference is the benefit to gunlines, which is certainly being felt, but it's hardly the only reason gunlines are doing so well right now.

I heard some like this new edition because it made jacks more powerful and beneficial, because the meta before was all about the units.

Don't take that list as gospel. About the only thing everyone agrees on is Skorne are at the bottom.

Protectorate is definitely A tier. Why would you even think it would be below merc, minions and convergence?

Convergence likely should be higher, actually.

Just not enough people play them.

But I think at this point CoC runs circles all over PoM.

He probably plays PoM. They seem to hate their own faction for no real reason.

>BUT MUH CHOIR TAX

The choir tax complaints are amazing when you consider that a crusader without choir has the same P+S as a gladiator with enrage

Yes. If you like the stompy robots, this is the edition for you.

To be fair, there isn't really a huge amount of Convergence mains out there.

NEWER, MORE GENERALIZED POWER RANKINGS

High Tier
Cygnar, Khador, Retribution

Mid Tier
Everyone Else

Bottom Tier
Cryx, Skorne

That's pretty cool actually. It almost makes me want to play now. I avoided it for the longest time because the scene was too hyper competitive, and that competitive scene favored units over jacks, which I though broke the spirit of the game, as in the whole reason it was made in the first place. But I am more of a narrative player than anything.

There are not. I consistently end up punching way up when I travel, because so many people just have no damn clue what my army does.

One of the most one sided matches I ever had was when a PoM player dropped a pKreoss ranged assassination list into Lucant.

I felt so bad for the dude.

>(Zaadesh 2) Lord Tyrant Zaadesh [+28]
- Aradus Soldier [18]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Agonizer [7]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Void Spirit [4]
Extoller Soulward [3]

Reminder that this is the sensible thing to be doing with Zaadesh. None of this Cyclops shit. Go play Naaresh if you wanna see how bad Cyclops are, even with a meme feat.

I think Centrati are better with him than Nihilators.

Great target for IR.

Nah fuck that, just put it on the Soldier and have a pair of ARM21 RNG2 faggots clogged up the front lines. Cetrati still have the problem of being expensive, and Nihilators fucking LOVE them some bonus MAT to make sure they never miss a Berserk.

For real, nihilators becoming 10 pow 14 mat 9 dudes is fantastic. Defensive strike means anything short of a khador heavy is going to get banged up some if trying to melee, and the clouds will mean most infantry at least will have a hard time shooting them. Most true sight stuff is battlegroup. And you get that for 5 less points than cetrati.

>interested in cryx

Everyone down at the shop telling my noob ass to get trolls, khador, or rhulics.

O-ok.

How does the pull interact with free striking a charging model? If a beast tries to charge past me and I slap it with a claw, I pull it towards me. I assume the beast would stop charging?

Hi Steven

Hi Dave, how's the wife a kids? Good? That's nice to hear. I heard you got a new job recently. How's it working out for you? Can't be much worse than your old one.

A charge is immediately stopped if the model is pushed, placed, slammed, or thrown. Drag is a push, so it would immediately stop the charge and cause it to be a failed charge unless it made it to melee range with its target by the time it left the melee range or LOS of the soldier.

Cryx got pretty banged up in the transition from MkII. Previously they had been on top of the pile.

Cryx are fine, particularly if you like Satyxis.

I wouldn't say they're fine, they lost all their anti-gunline tech when a lot of gunlines got stronger.

Circle has just been promoted to "Fucking Broken Elder God Tier".

>None of this Cyclops shit. Go play Naaresh if you wanna see how bad Cyclops are, even with a meme feat.
Oh the passive agression.

the get carried by a tree faction?
>sure thing mateypotatey

_top of the bunch_

swans
>not bad across faction. but. carried by a couple casters and lances - everywhere.

reds
>you like mad dogs? oh you like winterguard and rockets? behemoth?

knife ears inc.
>shooty, yep. jacks, yep. assassination jank, yep. weapon masters, yep.

_everyone else_

timber - the faction
>um how do you like your tree? oh you're allergic to wood? then you, my friend, are in trouble here. still good. but carried so hard on the boughs.

trolls
>tough ain't so tough, and madrak can be countered. otherwise not actually too bad.

god-botherers
>weapon masters everywhere. decent if not stellar casters. solid if not superb jacks. and support bloat for days - even the sabbath.

convergence
>not even half a real faction. got dealt hard by recursion mechanical changes. and not all that much else beyond a dildo and a colossal.

banetown
>suck it you twats. seriously got what was coming. not in a good way. but if you weren't looking at the faction from the lofty heights of previous editions, they might not look so bad. there is something there. but certainly not strongk. if you listen to cryx players they are the only ones who have trouble walking infantry across no-mans land in the face of withering fire. not sure if even fellow cryx players listen to cryx players though.

legion
>tough spot for these gimps. that glass cannon thing is an issue. beyond that, like cryx, there is stuff in faction.... but a number of issues.

mercs.
>not a real faction

minions..
>not a real faction, but will hit you in the face with a hefty snek. hope you like the taste of snek.

_damaged-goods_
>from across the sands... likes pain... can a faction be carried by what might be considered mid-grade models if in a different faction? not very well. so skorne's fucked apparently.

Sorry, I'll be more blunt in calling you a faggot next time.

PP said they'd be addressing this.

Not true. Most of the core rules changes were fine if not good. Jacks got easier to use, warcasters got a little less tanky. Pre-measuring is probably the only real controversy with the core rules (besides misprints, etc.) because it made ranged units that much easier to use well.

Whats got all the monkeys flinging their poop all over the place is the faction and internal balancing. Obviously they wanted to change the meta, and that's not gonna happen without changing up how individual things play. Despite supposedly 3 years of having another go to work on internal balance issues etc. they just ended up cutting the balls off of Cryx and Skorne. I can understand the accidental heavy hand with cryx since they tended to be top tier. But skrone weren't ever top of the pile. The fact that they just went through the skorne deck and nerfed most all of Skornes nice tricks without giving much of anything back just shows that no one at PP gives a shit about working on the faction.

user spends 3 fury to cast Revive.

Warmahordes = Magic's Modern format
Skorne lists = Blue decks
Molik Karn = Splinter Twin

>Every good blue deck uses Splinter Twin to win, so if we ban Splinter Twin, other blue decks will rise in the meta!
>Skorne players keep assassinating casters with Molik Karn, so if we nerf Molik Karn, Skorne players will start diversifying their gameplans!

NO PP THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS, KARN WAS OUR WIN CONDITION BECAUSE WE HAD NO OTHER WIN CONDITIONS

Sacrifice combat action.

Unless you're the high Reclaimer, sentry stones, or the hellmouth.

Pretty much this. With pretty big gaps too.

There is 0 sense when comparing Cygnar/Khador/Ret to Cryx/Skorne. The gaps are so big you could fit 14 Mad Dogs in there.

With all the talk of Zaadesh2's countercharge, I've come to realise something. Countercharge simply says when a model advances, not when it advances as part of its normal movement. Under Hexxy1's feat, you can advance an enemy model. So if you measured it right, you can use your feat to advance an enemy model close to your Bronzeback, countercharge it, and proceed to blow something off the table.

Reminder that Morghoul2 is tech against Una2 because he can Apparition out from inside the bird ball ;^)

>not even half a real faction. got dealt hard by recursion mechanical changes. and not all that much else beyond a dildo and a colossal.

Yea, CoC lost recursion, but so much of their other shit got better.

Aurora got quite a few buffs, and the new charge ruling makes her even better. I don't know if she's top tier yet without a damage buff, but she's massively better then she was in Mk2.

Mother got a massive buff like all over. Dominate change was huge for her, and her servitors getting her feat is also super big. Plus, the meta shift towards warjacks does nothing but help her.

Most warjacks got better, or stayed the same and got cheaper.

The new Induction rules are harder, but holy fuck what happens when you figure them out. Mother, PA, and three assimilators is fucking up there with the best as far as gunlines go.

In the age of gunlines, Lucant is still king. Sure, he lost some of his biggest bullshit, but with the changes the dude can bring even more shield guards in an incredibly efficient fashion.

Axis kept some of his neat tricks as well. In fact, in the age of SPD debuffs no longer preventing charges, CoC kept all it's no charging tech, and in the age of harder to get free charges, CoC kept it's free charges on a stick.

The faction got nothing but better, and it was already doing pretty well. The only thing CoC really lost was purification, Decel(and while I hated it at first, I actually don't mind the +2DEF against magic rolls, especially against Ret and Circle), and Sustained Attack.

When you take control of an enemy model, it actually comes under your control.

do you start or finish induction @ the corollary?

Both.

they also said they had by introducing new units like the birds to tie up gunlines, a joke

As as the godly factions match jank with jank in an epic struggle, skorne is stamped ever deeper into the mud as more and more insane shit is put on the table to balance out the existing insane shit.

>your warlocks kind of suck and can't do anything interesting, but the rest of the stuff is kind of above the curve and do interesting special interactions on their own
>THAT WAS THE DEAL PP. THAT WAS THE DEAL.
>Its like we got a new reform-minded manager who took a look at the books and asked "why is THIS payout on there?", "fixed" the issue, and derped along to the next thing.
>meanwhile skorne starves to death in the cold looking forlornly at other factions partying around the mark3 rulebook through a window

I gotta ask, has jank a special meaning in Warmahordes generals? Because usually it's used to describe something kinda bad, but I always see it used in the context of "so good it's almost broken". Is there a joke I'm not aware of here?

I usually see it as something super weird and hard to use, but can be powerful.

Often it's about shit bad players will fall for, but good players won't

I'd urge you to actually go into a shop. /wmhg/ is an echo-chamber of skorne tears. Even the official forums offer less salt.

>tfw everyone talk about Una2, but no one noticed how Fyanna2 is OP as hell.

That spell list and that feat you have to start to pray to have a time walk feat against her otherwise is GG.

She's good, but I'm not that worried about her.

>JoeBidenWindowStare.tiff

It isn't that bad, it's just that whilst there were slight problems in mk2, the previous edition, we expected those to get fixed.
But instead they made some of the bad things better, some of the bad things worse, some of the good things absolutely useless, and some of the good things better.

So TL:DR it's the same as before but with different models as top tier.

Oh yeah and some of the rules that worked fine got fucked in the eye with a spork.
New rules abuses have been made possible.

Yeah it works if you don't try to break it. However the WAAC tournament faggots DO try to break it, and they really have found some smelly shit.

The new broken shit is absolutely more tolerable than Mk2's version.

About the most annoying one is Wurmwood, but he's still not on the level of Mk2 Haley2 or Denny2

This is actually pretty damn accurate.
>Like the ranged weapons in mk3
ba dum tsssss I'll be here all week.

gunlines are too strong?
>oh noes, how did this happen? please purchase new models in order to play a decent game.

This guy has it, pretty much. Warmahordes is an open information game. You are allowed to know all the rules for all the models on the table at any time. So, in theory, there should be no rule that does something sneaky. No trap card style effects.

Jank is, I feel, when an interaction between multiple rules does something that a player doesn't expect to happen.

So, a model could have Steady, meaning cannot be knocked down. I would normally have trouble shooting that model to death. If I throw one of your jacks at that steady model, then shoot AOE attacks at the jack and then boost the blast damage from the AOE on the steady model, I can then shoot it to death no problem.

You know the rules, but the interactions catch you off guard.

the throwing stand up bullshit with skarath and amon etc is terrible games design.

Wurmwood?

15 mad dogs ?

behemoth, just behemoth alone??

While i agree there were bad things in mk2, it was on par with the current game.
They could have simply removed tier lists and there would have been more balance than this. (Even though there would indeed be some imbalances remaining)

The throw is a jank assassination that can be defended against.

Compare it to, say, Lyl2.

And I don't think you ever got to play against a good Haley2 or Denny2 player, if you're saying that.

Oh wow user, let's take it straight to the "git gud" comments.
Don't be a pleb.

The fact that it can be defended against isn't the point.
One of the points is that a whole lot of models are now not viable at all.
There are rules that can be abused
some factions are still way better than others (although not the same ones in mk2)
Shooting is too powerful, and there are too many things that see through stealth.

I just hope PP can make it out of this mess, I don't want them to die out.

It's not a get gud comment, because I'm not criticizing your abilities.

Wurmwood makes a lot off of blocking LOS to his army turn by turn, which can be pretty hard to deal with, yes.

But Haley2 took your fucking turn for you during the turn you needed to get work done, and Denny2 beat you without rolling dice.

Both of them were far, far more powerful than Wurmwood currently is.

Would this list work?

Kaelyssa 1
- Banshee
- Phoenix
Max Sentinels /w UA
Max Infiltrators
Max MSSF /w UA
Arcanist
Arcanist
Ghost Sniper
P Eiryss.

>Play Xerxis1 against Rask
>Rask player hasn't played much
>By the time he concedes, I haven't lost a model
Goes to show the importance of playing lots of games and studying the game. He never realised that Dahlia was a little too close to another model, and it only took a 9 on 3d6 from my Cannoneer to kill her. Bang, there goes Dahlia, a giant snake, and Lanyssa.

Did anyone else notice that Grind is coming back, this time as extra rules for Warmachine like in mk1?

No. It's 76/75 points, and therefore will not work.

Yeah, sounds cool but imma gonna wait for the rules. The parting comment about making a team from like four different factions kinda unsettles me tho

>Is this true, and if so, why?

The same reason the latest edition of pretty much every game is always "pretty much univerally reviled" by it's players. or at least by the online echochambers that get assmad and shout down anyone that says otherwise

Or maybe there are some legitimate problems?

So, apparently Will Pagani is working for PP now.

Go back to seattle Soles

There are, but Mk3 is nonetheless an overall improvement on Mk2. People are pissy because they got their hopes too high and it turns out Mk3 isn't perfect.

People that play warmahordes *really* like warmahordes. It's an amazing game, it has amazing rules, it's at a near optimal intersect between ease of play and quality of rules. If you get good, your performance gets better. That's a really big fucking deal in table top. It's like 40k and Chess had a baby.

That's true even for Skorne players. But their faction balance was never the best and was blasted to shit in the transition, and players that don't want to thread-crap the official forums with pointing that out over and over go to /wmhg/ to let out primal screams. (Since they're also not willing to shut up about it, seeing how letting people get the impression their old complaints were just the usual chatter has got to be partly to blame for their current appalling circumstances). There is something seriously wrong with skorne in mk3. Mk2 skorne was not ok.

well it used to be that PP was the underdog of the "all and powerful evil GW". And thus got quite a vigorous crowd that followed. But as time went by you couldn't ignore the facts that, just like GW, pp is also a company. They took the same money, some times even more (and for inferior models), but always got away with it due to fan-factor.
Now though, through the critique received through the launch of mk3, they did the mistake of turning on the crowd. They banned negative posts on the forums, that might yield a bad rep for new players, and they quite bluntly have been rude towards the player base. Instead of simply acknowledge the fact they cant balance a game in a basement with 10 people, when a full world will be play testing on launch.
It was a wrong step, and I hope they clear it out!

Mk3 core rules are an improvement over Mk2. Mk3 Warmachine is mostly an improvement over Mk2. Mk3 Hordes is just a fucking mess.

Hot damn, just jumped onto the PP store to pick up the LE models and saw that the legion and circle warlocks are already sold out. Thank goodness I play skorne (cry's internally).

>(and for inferior models)
still better then failcast

PP's pretty hit and miss with models.

Like, some of their infantry are dogshit, but holy fuck some of their big sculpts.

So, Convergence players. All three of you.

Aurora shits all over Una2.

Or at least it looks like it from the rules interactions.

Take note.

Go play a real faction.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

That's not how flashing blade works, user. (Or Thresher, for that matter).

You are correct, that is not how Flashing Blade works.

However.

1. Go read Bladed Gale

2. Go read Una's feat and abilities

>do test game with buddy
>first time playing it
>Like this more than the other game we played
>Ask buddy if he likes it
>Yeah, but my first army is gonna be for the other game

Fuck.

Not enough.

Not enough how, exactly?

Aurora runs an infantry screen, sprays the griffons so they can't benefit from the feat or sprint, and has Admo to deny the assassination anyways.

Add to the fact that Convergence gives fuck all about Wind Wall(god, imagine those TEP sprays on those 15/13 Griffons) and you've got a pretty nasty match for Una to deal with.

And Aurora's assassination is just as capable of killing Una as Una's can kill Aurora.

Plus, half inch melee flankers do not like having to try and kill loads of infantry.

Anyone have an idea what comes out with these theme forces? They come with related model releases right?

Hahaha holy fuck though, Hurricanes. Hurricanes just fuck Una UP.

Depends on the theme force in question. You'll see related model releases more outside the Command books.

Well I'm only interested in the trencher and man'o'war shit. Lock'n'load I believe talked about a new battle engine for khador was hoping the trenchers get the same.

Would love to see a trencher warcaster with a character warjack that dug trenches with shells or someshit.

>Would love to see a trencher warcaster with a character warjack that dug trenches with shells or someshit.

Isn't the grenadier basically a trencher jack?

Was hoping for maybe a heavy jack but yeah that'd fit in too.

>Cyclops can see into the future
>The Shaman, Brute, and Raider are MAT5
>The ability is "represented" by letting the MAT6 Savage burn through its tiny fury pool to boost its attacks