Pathfinder General /pfg/

Unless it's an interesting topic! Also totes rattling.

I did forget Primal Warrior, but not only is Primal Fury considered the second problem discipline, it's only +2d6 extra on the rising zenith strike compared to Elemental Nimbus, which still isn't enough to reliably take down a CR6.

Stacking Powerful Build on top of all of that adds another +4d6 which is now barely enough to reliably take down a CR6 on average, and still doesn't scratch CR7.

And again, this is a nova ability for a ZS OD which means they need to waste their next turn to have a chance of doing it again before the battle is over.

Stop pulling fake numbers out of your ass.

I'd say Powerful Build OD ZS is roughly fine but is nearing the edge of what someone could invest into pure damage at level 5 without pfg raising an eyebrow or two.

RZS with Powerful Build and Primal Warrior with a greatsword is 16d6, minimum.

That's a lot.

Where can I acquire that fox book? It doesn't seem to be in troves.

paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f
Greatsword: 2d6
Powerful build: --> 3d6
Primal Warrior Stance: --> 4d6 --> 6d6

Multiplied by two by RZS: 12d6

Try again.

[muffed sounds of 'OOOOOH' in the distance]

Which fox book? Childhood adventurers?

Nope, Races Revised: The Kitsune Clans.

Why don't we just pull up an old 2hu build to settle this?

archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/48417218/#48417691

There. There's your damn build.

She has barbie-sized hands o.o

All waifus have tiny hands. All of them.

Anime girls have under-developed hands, anime guys have over-developed hands.

This is so the girls always have to ask the guys to open pickle jars.

I have been enlightened.

First,
>Literally says 12d6 in the post itself
Nice try exaggerating the numbers because you thought nobody would check.
Next,
>On a hit, they deal 12d6+32 (average 74) damage to two enemies. The average CR 6 monster has 70 hit points and AC 19, so if there are two CR 6 monsters on the field, they stand a very high chance of being instantaneously deleted.

This is exactly what I said here: >Stacking Powerful Build on top of all of that adds another +4d6 which is now barely enough to reliably take down a CR6 on average, and still doesn't scratch CR7.

Your claim it could do the same to CR7 is also complete bullshit.

And finally you've moved the goalposts so fucking hard that I can't see you all the way beyond the stadium.
>pfg can't agree on broken blade being OP
>Yeah we do
>Well what about this normal RZS build?
>That's not as OP as you say
>Well what if we also add this and this to it?
>That's not a typical build anymore and is bordering on cheese, yes.

I don't know. either. Normally my backstories are pretty short but my current one is getting kinda long. I just can't tell if it's shit or not.
>what do you kick start your muse
I just pace around and think about where the character is, where he/she thinks they are. where are they going, where do they want to go. Both in the figurative and literal senses.

I listen to some music. I imagine how my character fights, how they talk, etc. Then it just kind of spills forth and I vomit a character bio out.

>it's okay to take out two CR 6s with a 100% success rate, at least they're not CR 7s!

This is literally what you're saying now.

>pfg can't agree on broken blade being OP
Nope, I'm still seeing /pfg/ games allow Broken Blade.

No, I'm saying
>That's not a typical build anymore and is bordering on cheese, yes

Come on, user.

>Yeah we do
We don't. We can agree that it's OP when used with a two -hander when people are being faggots with it.

That image is horrifying.

Alimony is hell.

>We can agree that it's OP when used with a two -hander when people are being faggots with it.

We were working under that assumption because that's the only way you can reliably explode a CR9 at level 9 with it.

ZS should just be banned imo

*level 6

You get the point

I think you should just be banned >:O

Fuck that, ZS is exactly what I wanted out of the Crusader and the 4E Fighter in the first place.

So is this the New Path of War Whipping boy. Because Warlords are worse than anything a Zweisent can dish out imo.

I'm fairly new to PoW. What are the most broken disciplines, and why are they so broken?

no it should be banned because the archetype is so good that i've literally never seen a warder without it.

SHUT UP NERD

What was wrong with the 4e fighter?

Osirion catboy with Vigilante for dressing as the butler and comforting the lonely!

>no it should be banned because the archetype is so good that i've literally never seen a warder without it.
>2H is an objectively better combat style than others in PF, with far better feat and weapon support than any of its competition
>Y EVERY1 PICK 2H WARDER?

Broken Blade: It was meant to allow unarmed users to be competative with standard fighty types.

The issue is that there are no fucking checks for you using it with weapons a standard fighty type use.

Scarlet Throne: Skill check X4 damage Skill Check Negate Attack, Skill Check Negate Save. Really Skill Check maneuvers were a fucking mistake.

Silver Crane: Fast acting, massive out of combat healing for no cost. I literally do not understand why this isn't all temp HP or has a "must be used against an enemy clause".

Piecing Thunder and Tempest Gale: Fucking Worthless.

>why would someone possibly be annoyed that the class designed to be sword and board has an archetype that loses nothing and gives it 2handed weapons

can't imagine why myself

Being stuck in a game where it's really hard to get above 65% hit rate without sucking your party leader's dick and/or hoping he goes first, and that's with abnormally high STR and a +3 prof weapon.

Every warder is STILL going to be 2handing for the most part anyway. Why shit on people for it? Do you ban great swords too>
>I've literally never seen a warder without it.
I've seen Dervish Defenders, Hawkguards, and Fiendbound Marauders somewhat frequently.

Do you ban Primalist Bloodrager too? Or invulnerable rager?

>Silver Crane: Fast acting, massive out of combat healing for no cost. I literally do not understand why this isn't all temp HP or has a "must be used against an enemy clause".

So 'Slightly more effective than just owning a wand of Infernal Healing/CLW'?

Out of combat healing is kinda unimpressive at the best of times.

The skill check manuvers are also designed to be pretty damn reliable, that's why they are skill checks. They are not supposed to be 'Eh, 50% chance this will work'.

>I literally do not understand why this isn't all temp HP or has a "must be used against an enemy clause".
Because apparently people thought the "bag of rats" strategy was a meme and not something people actually do. I can't think of any Paizo ability that triggers off of killing stuff where you can trigger it off of ANYTHING instead of having to use it on creatures of a specific HD.

ZS is badly designed for only one reason: it's a straight upgrade to the default Warder.
Even though 2handing is a better fighting style overall, it gives up incredibly little for what it gains.

That's why everyone takes it. It's not just "better warder", it's "warder with extra stuff for free".

The class isn't designed to be sword and board only you dumb autist.

I've been intending to run a character with both Broken Blade and Fool's Errand for a while now, because they synergize extremely well for an unarmed character.

Yes...and? That's the design decision they made. They aimed for 'Slightly above average on an equal level foe' for accuracy rather than 3.5s 'I basically can't miss past a certain level'.

That's why the fighter gets +wis mod to his opportunity attacks.

>So 'Slightly more effective than just owning a wand of Infernal Healing/CLW'?
That costs resources. Even if it's slightly.
>reliable
There's a line between reliable and "dumb a pittance of GP" to get a bonus so high you can basically just veto something.

>That's the design decision they made.
And I fucking hate it and always have.

exactly, thank you

What are the best disciplines for a natural attacker?

Why? Because you can't be sure of success?

Sounds like a personal problem.

>That costs resources. Even if it's slightly.

A negligible amount of resources past early levels. You could have a couple of wands easily last an entire campaign.

>you lose some disciplines like Broken Blade
>you lose aegis and improved aegis
>in exchange for some more reach and a slight AC bonus.
I guaran fucking tee that if you ban Zweisent most warders will still fucking two hand shit.

>Broken Blade
Aside from cheesing double and triple attack strikes with 2h weapons, you can get most of broken blade and then some from fool's errand or riven hourglass. I don't really see any design space for BB errata, aside form throwing maneuvers on every level.

1pp unarmed cyborg guy, is it possible?
Is it any sort of effective?

I'm the guy who was originally saying two CR 7s with a 100% success rate. Sorry. I was misremembering the Primal Warrior damage.

Turns out it's just a level 5 warder instakilling two CR 6s with a 100% chance.

Warlords don't use Scarlet Throne as well as an OD/ZS warder. Warlords ain't got shit on a full Wis OD's Zenith Strike.

Because it led to the shitfest that was 4E on release, where picking anything but a.+3 weapon and having anything less than an 18 in your primary stat was a one-way trip to sucktown.

When you're out of rusty dagger shanktown and yet you end up missing for an entire combat because your rolls are 7-9 is fucking shit. That was definitely one of the worst experiences I've ever had playing D&D.

as long as he has pale hair and dark skin its all ok

That sounds more of an issue with Ordained Defender and the fact that despite /pfg/ memeing Wisdom is the best stat.

Really a lot of Path of War problems aren't the classes themselves it's the Disciplines and the fact that DSP can barely write shit about fuck to save their life if they aren't cribbing good shit from 3.5

Take Psionics
Almost every bad thing in that book(bar Psychic Reformation, and the fact they chose to bring that back says a lot) is something that DSP came up with themselves. Aegis was a fluke and it isn't even really good. Just dippable if your a full BAB class and don't give a shit about your capstone.

Are you high? The 4e fighter was THE BEST defender in the whole system.

So you'd rather the shitshow that was 3.5 where people found it impossible to miss on anything other than a 1 pretty quickly?

And yes, the game expects you to put a 16+ in your primary stat. It's kinda your primary for a reason. It's not based on rolling stats.

What are you talking about?

OD/ZS warders are the best users of Scarlet Throne. Period.

>So you'd rather the shitshow that was 3.5 where people found it impossible to miss on anything other than a 1 pretty quickly?
Jesus christ yes, yes I would take that over constant missing. There's a big fucking reason I stuck to rogues and avengers after that.

>Update
And I'm saying most issues with Path of War aren't the classes it's the discipline. i.e Scarlet Throne is the problem. OD/Zweisent just exacerbates it.

>Steelfist Commando gets a bonus feat at level 1
>Unarmed Strike replaces the bonus feat you get at level 1

W-What?

Then why bother having people roll attacks at all if you don't like the chance of failure.

Early DSP (Psionics-PoW1 with some bleedover into PoWE and current stuff) reached success because they took good 3.5 subsystems and did an /okay/ job of converting them.

Current DSP (Some PoWE, Psionics Augmented, Forrestfire Studios) is making actually creative stuff now that they know how to pick up good talent.

You get Unarmed Strike and a bonus feat

It's a formatting error. You're not supposed to get any bonus feat at level 1 besides Unarmed Strike.

It's not the RAW but on record as the intended design.

Why bother playing if you're only going to do something half of the time? There's a reason nobody wants to play rusty dagger shanktown.

Future DSP (Fanfiction, kitsune only content, PoWEEE)

#thefutureislookingbright

I think that's already established.

So you don't like having any chance in your dice-based game. I don't think D&D is quite for you.

Aside from Forrest, what good talent has DSP picked up?

>Level 10
>Path of War and anything else on the PFSRD encouraged
>25 PB, ability scores increase by 2 points rather than 1 at levels 4/8
>Game is magitech with an overextended Empire trying to maintain a hold on the resource-producing colonies
>Airships and rudimentary firearms (mostly siege and ship-based cannon) emerging or commonplace

>mfw brain is overloading at the possibilities.

It's more like "40-50% chance of doing nothing when you do the combat thing you specialize in is completely unreasonable if you're not oneshotting enemies like it's X-COM, it should be closer to 20-25%" and that release 4E's fucked defense scaling seriously hurt the game, but since you phrased it as release 4E math or 3E math I'd really rather play the latter because the former was shit and the devs agreed.

Again, there's a reason nobody wants to play rusty dagger shanktown.

...

user pls, it's too early for this!

Rusty Dagger Shanktown is about being 1 hit by enemies, not low accuracy.

And a fighter is much LESS than 40% miss chance when doing his thing and making opportunity attacks.

He gets +wis mod to that, remember. He's really fucking good at it.

Rusty dagger shanktown is about the lack of control over the game because of the shitty accuracy and the high damage relative to HP. A PC can completely fail at hitting a complete scrub goblin and that same scrub can turn around and oneshot a party member, all completely on luck, and there is jack shit you can do about it unless you're a spellcaster.

2cute

If you want to see something cuter you just need to look in a mirror!

Why do I need a mirror when I've got you?

(copied from last thread)

The ai is just a hologram in physical form. The only thing I might have it do is possess things or create illusions. Maybe the ai can upgrade to a stand, but for now it's just a conscience.

I was thinking that my actual character knows jack shit about the setting (what is a magic it sounds cool) and that his 21st century knowledge, good intelligence, and ai make him the smartest character in the party. Keep in mind I can't make my character too wise, since he is a shy and lazy underachiever (being lonely and unchallenged in school does that) in most things. His good wisdom score comes from having a second conscience, pair of eyes, and pair of ears.

Thanks for the feedback. Appreciate more.

OAs are only part of their thing. I'd argue that Combat Challenge and their powers are more important.

Where fighters have the Reliable keyword, making them the least likely to waste a power.

Just head on by the Felinid thread for your fix. Some good selection there.

In an unrelated topic. Typically when i build encounters, i just throw hitpoints, AC, Saves, and then a bunch of custom special abilites together to make fights. My players have the terrible habit of metagaming (or rather looking up what they think it is ahead of time. The down side of PFSRD) and i feel like i need to make custom encounters to keep them surprised.

Well first off that's still Avengers because of their insane accuracy, and second Reliable is not that frequent on good powers.

Warsoul with Cannon DBS?

Go ahead... And take a Silver Crane Spiral while you're at it.

>tfw no game

I know this feel

So /pfg/, what's your main goal when building a gestalt character? Making the most optimized thing possible? Making a build that would normally be weak/impossible work?

I like to make chars that would be crap without gestalt that sound fun