Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Yeah, I really don't want Jaina to go evil. We've lost enough characters that way.

That's a good question. I would go for the latter, because the only source we have on Mok'Nathal is describing them as half-orc-half-ogre and I think when they were introduced they were written with mixed parentage in mind and I'll stick to that until further notice.

Scourge Faction.

A post on it.

Especially since she is justified in her distrust of the Horde.

You're not allowed to have contempt for the Horde in Anduin's Alliance.

Fuck Anduin and fuck Khadgar. Trusting the horde is fucking retarded. Goblins and Forsakens should be straight up genocided.

daily reminder that Jaina left the Alliance out to dry at the Broken Shore and then ran home to blame the Horde before she even knew what happened

She attacked first, tho.
From a city which was already used for that shit once.
And that was only not burned to the ground because the Warchief at that time gave her much leeway.

She killed her father and king of a sovereign human nation to protect the horde. She continued to protect them diplomatically, to the point when theramorian soldiers were killed in vanila quests and then made fun of for resisting the horde. She teleported Varian and his army out of Undercity when he was about to capture it and personally kill Thrall. She was never called on any on this. And now that her city is nuked and its civilians and women are used as target practice in SoO wanting revenge for it is evilbad insanity.

>literally was there the entire time until the demons poured through
>everyone sees sylvanas break ranks and withdraw.
>"Sylvanas dindu nuffin, it was jaina's fault."

>>literally was there the entire time until the demons poured through
she completely disappears before the Alliance even meets Gul'dan

>Forsaken
Yes

>Goblins
No.

Buy out the Goblins, they're not entirely useless. Forsaken are one war crime away from provoking everyone as is.

If Jaina does turn heel, I think she has enough sense to know not to join the Legion or Old Gods and would rather go on a one-man genocide campaign against the Horde.

Not true. She was there when they find Gul'dan and Tirion. And was still there when they met Gul'dan again in front of the tomb.

>She attacked first

What memery is this? The humans in Durotar are Kul Tiras, no?

The most Jaina did was send resources to Baine because Garrosh was too busy raping Nelves in Ashenvale to care about the Grimtotem.

Jaina invested half her life into believing peace was possible and serving as the devil's advocate for the Horde towards the Alliance, to the point she sacrificed her father to realize that dream. She was also one of the Alliance's most consistent voices of reason and arbiters of peace. When Garrosh nuked Theramore, she (reasonably) lost her shit.

She is literally present right until the cutscene.

Actually, Durotar questing in Cataclysm does say that Theramore attacked Durotar first in that war, because Cataclysm lore is a goddamn mess that was never properly refined. She probably didn't, canonically, but it's understandable that someone would be confused.

Could probably be explained as stranded Kul Tiras humans being confused for Theramore's. Stupid, but plausible.

Unlikely. Kul Tiras forces wear green, Theramore forces wear white. Also, all the Kul Tiras soldiers were drowned when Tiragarde Keep flooded in the Cataclysm.

>Implying Garrosh "If it isn't an orc, stick it like pork" Hellscream cared what frilly colors humans wear.

>or wouldn't lie to create an excuse to wipe a human kingdom off the map.

At the same time, Theramore was base through which forces of Alliance were arriving in Kalimdor to attack Tauren and Orcs in Barrens, and she did nothing about it.

It's nice to claim neutrality, while at the same time clearly aiding forces that commit war crimes.

Basically it boils down to that you're only allowed to live if you're ready blow Orcs&Forsaken.

Now the real question is that will Greymane be killed in the same raid as Jaina or will he spared for some future expansion.

>2016
>still buttmad that they're not going to just remove 1-2 playable races

Cataclysm was five fucking years ago.

>tfw don't want to kill Greymane but if he was done right he'd be one of the best boss fights in the game
MY CURSE WILL BE THEIR UNDOING

>At the same time, Theramore was base through which forces of Alliance were arriving in Kalimdor to attack Tauren and Orcs in Barrens, and she did nothing about it.

By that logic Ratchet should be a horde town.

Also, what war crimes, The alliance destroys a single fucking camp made out of tents, its commander even lets the civilians go yet its somehow decried as a horrific warcrime and an atrocity against the horde. Meanwhile they nuke a city, prepare to nuke another, break their neutrality in Dalaran and plague bomb Southshore.

>Kabal has evil Draenei waifus
Count me in.

>satyr with based Thal'kiel
my curiosity is piqued

I don't think this is that specific skull.

>The Master
Little is known about our esteemed leader, the master alchemist Kazakus. WHO CARES? What matters is his vast knowledge of alchemy and the arcane, and the delicious power he offers binds us to him. . . TOGETHER! It binds us together, yes. Some claim that a back alley potion brewer couldn’t possibly have such knowledge, and some are foolish enough to spread rumors that he’s secretly a dragon, demon, or some other powerful entity in disguise.
LIES! SLANDER! DEFAMATION!
MAYBE IT’S ALL TRUE!
NO ONE KNOWS!
WHAT?

>Kazakus is a Zandalari troll and the sinister and mysterious leader of the Kabal. No one really knows his true origins, but nor does anyone really care; instead, what they care about are the corrupted mana potions he sells. His motto is "Power should be attainable for anyone, at a price". Kazakus' tusks have become contorted and twisted due to the corrupted mana he uses, and the large red circle on the center of his stomach is a portal that goes right through his body to an unknown destination, possibly another dimension.

>Pimpin' Zandalro troll
>Lots of really cool tattoos
>Belly button goes to another dimension
>Hot Belf Waifu who works on the tattoos

Kazakus has a good life.

>tfw your mana game is so strong that Elves desires you

>the Energon cubes are ours, Auto-scum!

That draenei is qt

why are Zandalari trolls so based?
Gara'jal coming back again when

>Finish Tomb of Sargeras Mythic
>Avatar of Sargeras falls, his body leading to a secret chamber.
>I TOLD YA I'D BE BACK, YA SNIVELIN' WORMS!
>Queue fel trolls

Fel Trolls as empowered by Legion, or Trolls imprisoning Demons and draining their power, like the other Trolls did with Loa?

Apparently cooperation isn't something Elves would think about.

The Alliance launched an invasion of Kalimdor through Theramore that happened before the Cataclysm struck. This means it predates Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale in Wolfheart. Since Gilneas did not become Alliance until well after the Forsaken invasion, it cannot be considered the "start" of the war either, even if it may have technically been the earliest conflict.

Most likely, the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas and Theramore's invasion of the Barrens happened at the same time. AFTER the Cataclysm occurs and the goblins/worgen join the Horde/Alliance, Garrosh invades Ashenvale for the first time.

The latter. Zandalari are too good to bow to anyone short of DA THUNDAH KING

Varian declared formal war in WotLK but the horde has been attacking Alliance lands since the start of the game. Ashenvale, Stromgarde, Hillsbrad etc.

>da Zandalari break into a secluded section of the Tomb
>find a group of Eredar summoning reinforcements
>by the power of Zul, they subdue them and force them to keep summoning
>as the demons come through the portal, the Zandalari capture them and devour them for their powers like the Drakkari did to their Loa
>hulked out demon hunter trolls led by priests that have consumed some of the most powerful eredar warlocks in creation smash the Legion and Legionfall forces on the Broken Shore, then radiate out over the Broken Isles

Jaina's heel turn was fucking dumb to begin with and was resolved by the end of MoP yet we continue to see half assed attempts to make her an antagonist now that Varian actually learned his lesson about how the Legion(or Void Lords, 'cause we all know that's were this fucking game is going now for some reason) will fuck assholes thoroughly until nothing is left if both sides don't give up the guff.

Through WoD she was only distrustful of the Horde, not outright antagonistic. The new issues in Legion come from a very stupid point; Sylvanas never said why they were retreating.

If she had just shouted something about the number of demons they were dealing with, everything would have been fine, but the way things worked out it really did look like the Horde was just suddenly pulling out of the fight.

I Lover that image, shame they don't show the high-elf reaction to this, must have been a massive 'wtf' moment when they realized they gave magic nukes to primitive mud-slappers.

Learned his lesson that trusting the horde will always fucks you over? Doubt it.

>Virmen

But how else can Blizzard push a faction conflict that showed have ended at WC3?

Horde do evil shit and Allaince have to stop them.

A-fucking-men.

I don't know, I'm sick of it being forced at this point. Varian was fine but the others pushing it have always acted like bigoted, irrational children rather than anyone with an actual problem, to the detriment of otherwise good characters that don't often get touched.

By hiring good writers, planning out a story in advance, making believeable characters interacting based on their actual character not flipflopping around and ignoring faction fanboys and waifufags.

This is already going on. In MoP I was fucking livid when all those patronizing and lazy panda fucks started shit talking my draenei paladin how I'm an ebul warmonger too for having the gall to not getting genocided by the orcs again and the alliance is just as bad for resisting. Then they shit talked my religion and culture repeatedly and the game unanimously portrayed them as the wise, down the earth good guys who had everything figured down and if you disagree with them you are basically fucking stupid. Even after I had to exorcize the one who was supposed to guard aganist corruption and solved all their problems I was still a silly stupid outlander. I wanted to cleave and smite those fuck faces so bad,

Horde invasion of Ashenvale has been ongoing since Vanilla, Garrosh merely renewed the offensive.

But don't you space gweilo realize that orcs did nothing wrong and it was the demon blood that made them to do it. You should let go of your ignorant views and purify the hatred from your heart.

>fetal alcohol pandas actually believe this

Lore Gadgetzan seems like a damn neat place

Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?

>Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?

Sacking of the Stormwind by the Orcish Horde from the Orcish point of view. Bonus points if it features Doomhammer assassinating Blackhand, torturing Gul'dan and drinking wine mixed with the blood of Stormwind's citizens.

>Horde invasion of Ashenvale has been ongoing since Vanilla, Garrosh merely renewed the offensive.
Not exactly, since Vanilla Horde just hold control over old Warsong camps, in Cataclysm Garrosh denied peace propose about border in Ashenvale and start the war.

Horde don't surf, they're all felorcs when the bombs explode.

>mfw blasting wagner during the MoP alliance intro quest and setting up a Nam playlist while doing every single quest in Nagrand in a tank

>old camps
which

yeah.
I played songs from the Great patriotic war.

>Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?
First Zul'Gurub siege, or building of Atal'Hakar temple in swamp of sorrow.

>which
Which was builded in WC3.

But the Horde was supposed to stop being villains in WC3.

They had to pander to the Chinese somehow.

Yeah and I fucking loved the WC3 horde.Shamanistic underdog band of brothers trying to reclaim their freedom and forge a future for themselves. Then come later WoW my elderly orc shaman became an ally of undead and complicit in several genocides. Not being able to do anything about goblins fucking up the pristine and beautiful Azshara filled with elemental spirits was just insulting.

The actual Horde villains were all stopped in MoP; calm yourself.

It's gonna be okay, pal. Everything's gonna be alright. You'll see.

>The actual Horde villains were all stopped in MoP

>Defending how the Horde has been done

Go away MMO Champion.

But she's in charge now, user.

Sylvanas fanboys will shit themselves hard if she dies. I don't know why she even went full retard in the first place. All of her problems were machinations of the plot after Wrath rather than anything that existed before then.

I think she was a shitty person while she was alive as well. Not that that's an excuse but I've no trouble with her bwing aweful considering how arrogant she was in WC3.

It doesn't make sense to me why she'd have even had a problem with Varimathras' actions if she was just going to turn around and keep going with the same kind of bullshit he was pulling afterwards.

Sylvanas is a hypocrite.

Point is, the Horde could've burned Theramore down the first time. They did not, because Thrall was a very nice guy and considered the matter settled with Proudmoores death and the destruction of the Kul Tiras army and fleet.

Garosh was a far less nice guy, and had a plausible enough reason to attack.
He still overdid it, which lead to the Darkspear revolution.

Last I played was in BC. But Ratchet was neutral, wasn't it? While Theramoore was ally territory.
So Theramoore was not neutral. It's continued existence owed only to the good relations to the Horde.
Then it got used as staging point for war AGAIN...
Any normal ruler would've annexed it the first time.

To be fair Jaina&Theramoore deserved what they got for not supporting Admiral Proudmoore on his righteous quest to finally get rid off blackbloods.

The hordes continuing existence for the third time is owned to the goodwill of humans. Jaina could have sided with her countrymen and father and remove the orcs with the help of the night elves. The humans could have just slaughtered all the orcs instead of trying to cure them after the second war. Jaina could have just tsunami'd Orgrimmar of the map. Varian could have dismantled the horde after SoO. The horde repaid all these attempts of reconciliation and working together aganist greater enemies with expansionism and genocide again and again and WoD had shown us the orcs were bad apples to start with even without the demonic bloodlust.

>Varian could have dismantled the horde after SoO.

Yet he ended up just giving them "pls don't do this again or else we will have to send a sternly worded letter to you".

Cause everything about letting Varimathras live was dumb and wrong. Putress just pulled the trigger too early. Everyone just keep putting up with forsaken villainy for no reason which is especially jarring considering how the Argent Crusade and the Cenarion Circle now borders them trying to heal the land while the forsaken are happily plaguing and scarring the land.

In fact, everything about Sylvanas is just a clusterfuck, heres how I'd wrote it.

>forsaken are much more tragic and morally ambigous, just like in vanilla, trying to deal with existence in undeath while forsaken and crusaders try to fuck them up.
>Varimathras is obviously doing his shady business, turning many of them completely evil.
>Sylvanas is a much more shadowy and subversive agent, more stuff like her shadow alliance with Magatha, maybe even use her mind control to ally with a troll tribe or a minor goblin cartel or something like that
>no retarded invasions of Dalaran, Southshore and Arathi, or portay them as a growing rift of Varimathrasites and Sylvanas' followers
>wotlk civil war still happens but it doesnt get resolved right away, Putress un-lives because he is a glorious motherfucker
>forsaken are now having a guerilla war aganist their evil breakaways
>unbelieveably savage and pragmatic war, nothing is forbidden, plague, demon summoning and necromancy used by both sides, spilling over into neighboring lands
>Arthas dies, Sylvanas knows she has to somehow unite her people, they need a goal to work towards all they all fall to mindless villainy
>she somehow manages to find and MC Calia Menethil, has her crowned as Queen of Lordaeron with herself as regent and decides to rebrand the forsaken as Lordaeron
>Calia somehow dies, be it a suspicious accident or some alliance fanatics
>Alliance is completely buttmad about a formal pillar of the Alliance becoming a member of the horde and declares all out war

cont.

>some of the forsaken actually welcome this and become a very light shade of grey, trying to get on with their unlives
>some of them are even zealous enough to become paladins
>an order of unfaltering knights, their will and faith strong enough to bear the unending agony of wielding the light, completely dedicated to finding a cure for undeath
>this prevents the holy cow bullshit
>forsaken stay deeply fractional, some of them really like not hanging out in cellars anymore, some of them actually want to be mustache twirling evil
>but Sylvanas' plan succeeds, they put away their differences to unite aganist invading humans and legion worshipping Varimathrasite forsaken
>the valkyr have much less troubles resurrecting people to this faction, even some fallen heroes of the alliance may return
>they see their invasion and turning of Gilneas and Stromgarde as self defense now and enlarging their "New Alliance"
>Sylvanas is buttering up the blood elves and Dalaran greatly, she is the one who negotiates the horde stay there in WotLK
>maybe even some mind controlled minor factions join in
>orcs are starting worry if Sylvanas is planning to succeed both the horde and the alliance with her new organization, simply outgrowing the "core horde"
>she still angsts her monster existence and sends agents to retrieve draenei relics used in soul transfering from Auchindoun, titan shaping equipment, parts of tempest keep and such planning something big

There, I fixed your waifu

>Night elves' help
>When Jaina's father was still alive
t. High King of the Alliance

>Deathwing should've destroyed Stormwind but he just left after looking cool for the trailer

>Varian couldn't even convince the Stormwind nobles to pay Vancleef for rebuilding the city, but can tell them to pay for all these wars

>Dwarves not being the most powerful mortal race on Azeroth

>Dalaran was reduced to rubble but gets rebuilt and installed jetpacks in a few years because fuck you

Daily reminder that Humans, just like Orcs, should be gased

I've never particularly liked Sylvanas.

Tyrande is my waifu.

I disagree but I won't be a dragondick about it

She's a bitch, but she's a consistent bitch, at least.

Malfurion Bearcock thoooo

brainwashing her way to world domination, way better.

Like her playing politics is good but you're making her too powerful there.

>Malfurion BearcUck

FTFY famalamadingdong.

Hamuul and Vol'jin have been spitroasting that purple puss since after Hyjal.

Tried to be as faithful to the original as possible, down to the blizzards pet thing. I wouldnt even mind her being an evil bitch, just dont paint her and the forsaken as misundertstood little dindus opressed by evil racis' paladins when they are essentially scourge-lite at this point invading kingdoms, deploying plague, raising undead and killing the ones unwilling to join.

Why do they like her so much is the thing I can't work out? She was a mirror for Arthas, and a way to show how much he had changed.

And now she's been turned into this amazing warlord that will save the world with her morally ambiguous decisions and retardedness including such hits as "I'll employ this deceiver demon as my second in command" and "I'll piss off the gods of a race of titan war machines."

Don't forget the time when she decided to antagonize the blood elves and treat them like shit when they tried to treat her as a ranger-general.

Because fans like that undead puss and edgy gas the unworthy nazi aesthetic.

How would you fix the Dragonflights, /wclore/?