Why are stunlocking attacks still a thing in D&D?

Why are stunlocking attacks still a thing in D&D?

Pathfinder, 4e, 5e, they all have stupid "you don't get to play this round, sorry" attacks.

>Did that low-level ghoul graze your hero? Sorry, you get to lose turns now.

PCs stunlocking monsters is okay because DMs have many monsters and turns. But the converse is just dumb and takes players out of the game.

Why? What does stunlocking add to the game?

Other urls found in this thread:

rpg20.com/spells.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=220
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

I want to say because anything else could eventually be overcome through levels/min-max bullshit

Makes no sense.

don't get stunned.

By that reasoning, reducing a PC to 0 hp is just dumb.

HP is a bigger safety net than saves.

Rider effects on attacks are useful as they offer a greater threat than binary alive/not alive HP. The greater the rider effect, the greater players should try to avoid being in a position where such rider effects should occur.

Where abilities change the way players handle combat, variety is introduced and therefore spices things up a bit.

If you don't have such rider effects such as save or dies, trips, pushing, difficult ground, and yes, stunlocking attacks, combat can end up very boring.

Stunlocking allows for a creature to have a significantly higher threat level wile not outright risking instant death, and does not provide a permanent effect on the player character. It's relatively tame compared to things like stat damage or curses.

If you don't want to get stunlocked, design your strategy around avoiding getting in a position where you'll get stunlocked.

>If you don't have such rider effects such as save or dies, trips, pushing, difficult ground, and yes, stunlocking attacks, combat can end up very boring.
You can have interesting riders apart from stunlocking. One thing that 5e doesn't use THAT often is ongoing damage.

>If you don't want to get stunlocked, design your strategy around avoiding getting in a position where you'll get stunlocked.
We'd all like to not get hit, but we don't have much of a choice if we're entering combat.

>If you don't want to get stunlocked, design your strategy around avoiding getting in a position where you'll get stunlocked.

>the position to getting stunlocked can be as simple as "getting hit in melee" by certain creatures or "being in AoE of a spell".

I mean, at its core you are essentially saying "never get hit by anything ever because it could be a stun".

Stunning isn't like opportunity attacks or getting flanked. You (as in, the team) can't just rely on nobody ever getting hit with stun.

And even the benefits of having stun as an effect you attribute to it could be fulfilled by just about any other debilating effect, that however still lets you do something. Effects like immobilize or blind or stuff like that can be devastating, but it can still be played around with, while stun is a boring, binary effect.

Stun is best used as reward (or punishment, I guess) for pulling off some sort of plan that requires creativity, coordination and some manner of luck, as it can be considered a method to circumvent dealing with the enemy. It should be an effect that is rare and needs a lot of investment or drawbacks to use so it stays exciting, instead of something that can be done commonly.

Stunlocking is great for making even grazing hits dangerous, though, while not being MASSIVE DAMAGE or HUGE PENALTY that makes your character effectively useless anyway.

>We'd all like to not get hit, but we don't have much of a choice if we're entering combat.
Have you tried not getting in melee range, using difficult ground to keep away, using a mount, using ranged weapons or reach weapons?

It's suboptimal for some builds, but so's getting stunlocked and having your guts torn out and eaten by hungry ghouls while you're paralysed and still alive.

>Why? What does stunlocking add to the game?

You might ask the same about any number of effects. Shit, you might even make the argument that severe debuffs(like feeblemind on a caster) are worse than being "stunlocked" since you're useless all the same, but still need to take your turn. Or mind control (specifically in combat), since you might actually disadvantage the rest of the party. And what about fear effects? Being forced to actually flee the combat while your comrades fight can definitely be worse than being merely unable to act.

The fact is, variety adds to the game and if all(or certain) players in your group absolutely hate certain effect or class of effects, the GM can just choose to not use monsters that utilize the said effects(or use/make up variants that don't have those effects).

>at its core you are essentially saying "never get hit by anything ever because it could be a stun".
Not quite. Most rider effects or special attacks only really work when telegraphed. Of course if you go attack a bandit and he hits you without warning with a 100 foot aoe 10 turn stun effect that's bullshit, but if you see zombies grabbing goblins and watching them freeze up while they're eaten and see previously fearless goblins running away screaming from these things and peppering them with arrows it's a good incentive NOT to have your fighter charge in to melee and then whine about how he expected them to just keel over and die.

Again, a caster with powerful spells shouldn't just be a run of the mill encounter, or the PCs should be packing some anti-stun stuff or effective saves or trust their allies to counterspell by that level where people can throw stuns out like candy.

I thought stun only occurred a few times a day and only once per round or do monks can get more stuns?

>HUGE PENALTY that makes your character effectively useless anyway.

I concede, if you give a penalty as huge that you may as well be stunned, you may as well stun.

However, you can make the same argument against those kinds of debuffs as against stun so that's really not saying much.

>
Again, a caster with powerful spells shouldn't just be a run of the mill encounter, or the PCs should be packing some anti-stun stuff or effective saves or trust their allies to counterspell by that level where people can throw stuns out like candy.

And this just shows another negative effect of stuns (and other such effective disables); they warp combat in a way that once they are available or expected, it becomes a game about dealing with the effect.

Oh lawd! Heven help, something terrible might happen to my character while fighting terrifying monsters of all shapes and sizes!

You're one of those PCs vs. GM mentality people aren't you. Monsters like ghouls who paralize when they hit, or naga with paralysis venom on their blades have that as a thematic flavor to the monster, and increase the challenge of fighting said monster.

It's a team game as well, so you becoming paralized in the fight adds a sense of agency to the rest of the party members to save your paralized ass. It can change the whole stratagy of a fight, allowing for variation in challenges.

Suck it up buttercup and make the will/con save.

When that happens I just grab my phone, GMs get ubersalty about that somehow.

>they warp combat in a way that once they are available or expected, it becomes a game about dealing with the effect.
This is where the discrepancy in my mind and yours occurs.

To me, if a mechanic in the game does not change the way how the players play, then there is no reason for that mechanic to be in the game.

If an added penalty for getting hit was simply "oh, you get a -1 to hit" then players will shrug and ignore the effect and carry on trying to flail away, and be slightly less effective doing what they were previously doing. Or possibly take a five foot step back and shrug before blasting the opponent with spells that don't need attack rolls.

All that does is turn fights into a game of dice rolling odds with no strategy.

Rider effects NEED to be drastic enough to change the flow of a battle so players either change their tactics, or use some of their resources in advance to minimise the impact of such issues. If they can be ignored outright, what's the point of having them? You might as well just make the enemies have +1 AC instead, or more hitpoints.

>tfw snapping turtle or panther monk monk
>tfw its retaliatory attack isn't an action nor an AoO
>be stunned, I still punch them back
You counter stunlocking with ruleslawyering

I think i recognize the OP.

He's the guy who wanders among different groups (because he can't hold a group worth shit due to his crippling social retardation), creates overly minmaxed characters geared for one thing only, then tries to game the system as hard as possible to grab the spotlight. When this doesn't work or when something that is (god forbid) outside of his area of experience happens, he, his pride wounded, his autism triggered, crawls back to Veeky Forums where he tries to get the sympathy/echo chamber/hugbox.

Not to mention ALL of his characters are little girls(male) with mommy issues.

>Have you tried not getting in melee range, using difficult ground to keep away, using a mount, using ranged weapons or reach weapons?

You mean "not getting hit in combat."

Tall order there, chief.

I know jack shit about DnD, but I fucking hate hate hate stunlocking in video games. So if it's anything similar to that I agree with you OP.

If EVERY enemy has stunlocks, then you probably should be backing the fuck out instead of charging, omae.

If your GM shoves you in a pit without warning with no way to tactically maneuver away from said stunlocking people he's probably a shit GM again.

Ghouls can charge.

What's that, GM? I'm stunned for 3 rounds? Alright, well I'll just sit here and play games on my phone while I wait an hour and a half for my turn.

I do this

Try setting up something like an obstacle between you and the ghouls, then. Maneuver where there's no easy charging method, like area with trees in them. Or have a wizard conjure up a portcullis, or throw down some caltrops.

Still more optimal than getting your guts eaten.

>Not having saves so high you can't fail
My Paladin had like 13 on Fort and Will at 6th level without magic items, the fuck are you doing?

Uh, just be thankful that 5E almost always allows for saves each round to remove now instead of, "Oh, you failed the 30% chance to not die" check that was just about every paralyzing / stunning effect in past editions.

If I remember correctly ghouls in 5e are still underCR as fuck with their 3 attacks with DC 12 or be paralyzsed

This is not an option in the majority of encounters.

>Fort +13, Will +13 without magic items

>base save +5
>Cha bonus +4

Did you have Con and Wis bonus at +4 too? Something is fishy here.

>To me, if a mechanic in the game does not change the way how the players play, then there is no reason for that mechanic to be in the game.

A mechanic should warp the game.

A mechanic shouldn't warp the game to the point that your combat options become "who isn't protected against my 'remove from combat' ability?".

In my opinion anyway. Like, even if you enjoy the rocket tag nature of such games, you may as well achieve it in a way that takes HP into account at least.

Then git gud and kill them before they hit you, you faggot.

Not an option.

Fuck off, shitter. They're fucking undead. If you can't find a way to deal with something with that many weaknesses, then you and your party are both retarded.

Undead have more immunities than weaknesses.

You might actually be retarded. Their immunities are entirely irrelevant if you never attack them. Hit their weaknesses.

>undead
>weaknesses
>in D&D

Haha, good one.

>What is Hide from Undead
>What is Control Undead
>What is Command Undead

Curiously enough those all seem to be spells.

because pathfinder significantly improved the game of the healer to remove these conditions and keep hp totals respectable during combat. If you want to avoid these effects you need a caster who is willing to play the role of support and if you don't like doing that, well tough shit thats how it works when you choose not to fight with a support who can remove conditions that stun lock.

Non-casting classes should really have a flag that says NPC-Only in 3.pf. Banning noncasters and fullcasters makes the game flow so much nicer, it's not even funny.

>What is Freedom of Movement
Stops everything but Stun & Daze, and you can turn Daze on your opponents via Dazing Assault. Did I mention nothing is immune to Daze?

Spells that you can't just spontaneously cast?

A scroll of Hide from Undead costs 25gp. Why wouldn't you have one just in case? The rest is just gravy, that a Cleric with open spell slots can prepare in 15 minutes, because they have a scroll of Hide from Undead

>A scroll of Hide from Undead costs 25gp.

Targets one creature, Will save DC 11, ghouls have Will +5, warded creature cannot attack the undead.

>that a Cleric with open spell slots can prepare in 15 minutes

Sure, let's all spend 15 minutes in combat.

>cleric
Use your fucking turn ability, whatever the fuck it is.

Ghouls have channel resistance and decent Wisdom, and some damage will just KINDA help.

status effects are necessary to make games fun. just hit points is boring.

ideally there ate multiple ways to win/lose.

hp loss = death.
ability damage = weakening.
debuffs = flat penalties.
buffs = flat bonuses.

stun
paralysis
silence
haste
slow
push

all contribute to making the game more than a boring numbers game.

i prefer to keep the full casters and ban noncasters, but including both doesnt work out well ubless all martials are at least also initiators.

>Ghoul
Genuinely forgot they're intelligent undead. Whoops.

It's not like they can fly or anything though, so they lose to the usual low level crowd control tactics. Nets, Grease, Entangle, Rime'd Ray of Frost, etc. Once they're entangled, they eat a -4 penalty to all attack rolls because Weapon Finesse, and then it's trivial.

Mundane nets are a remarkably potent ranged touch attack even without proficiency, right up until Freedom of Movement becomes available. +1 Ghost Touch nets are great at fucking over incorporeals though, since if you get them, they can't damage the net, or phase into the ground because of the net. Fantastic use of 8000gp, would recommend

There is nothing wrong with having status effects. However, stun specifically keeps the player from participating in the game. If the turns go by quickly and the stun does not last long this may be fine. Usually the opposite is the case: turns take long because someone takes a moment to think and the stun effect lasts multiple turns.

dc 12 is only 45% for proficiency alone, not counting attribute mod.

where is your cuck cleric?

see

Ghouls aren't a problem, chasmes are way worse, it doesn't even need to attack, giving a creature a passive paralyze aura that will then proceed to hit whoever failed his save for an average of 80 necrotic dmg a CR 6 is just retarded.

Initiators from ToB/PoW and homebrew martial buffs go a long way to bridging the gap between martials and full casters.

Yeah, definitely. I do have a hard on for 4th level casters though, been meaning to make a dedicated fighter/samurai spell list for ages. I also use the "Move half and full attack" house rule, so that Haste retains its original intent in 3.0, of allowing martials to make a full move and full attack.
rpg20.com/spells.php?reptype=fullentry&valueid=220

Never had a chance to play ToB sadly.

i kind of hate 4th level casters. i think its because their spell progression doesnt start until 4th. if they gave it at thw beginning with just a slow progrwssion (like 5e) they'd be much better.

It's true that their stunted progression isn't the most fun, but it's worth it to produce stuff like 50gp potions of Lesser Restoration. I think it's also because they're kinda training wheel classes; you start off as a full BAB martial, then you get skills or immunities, and after 4 levels of play, you get to learn the basics of vanican casting, after you get the basics of combat and 3.pf in general

I also just think the spells in their lists are really well chosen, usually exactly what they need to fulfill their roles. Rangers get divinations like Commune with Birds/Nature, Speak with Animals/Plants/Stones, access to problem-solving flight with Glide and Raven's Flight, and access to Smite Anything in Instant Enemy, which they can supplement with Pearls of Power, which they can craft themselves. Pallys get great support stuff like Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Bestow Grace (Double CHA to all saves!), and the king of combat buffs, Holy Sword (0gp club -> +5 Holy Club of fuck you). Unsanctioned knowledge also gives you access to Divine Power, Haste, Blessing of Fervor, and Animate Dead as a joke.

Overall, I just think they're a really good chassis to build from, and I like how they're put together. A way to start casting at 1st, beyond spell trigger items would be nice though.

i dont have an issue with the list, just the fact that it starts so delayed, and the spell dcs are terrible

If ghouls can stunlock, then why is their level/CR so low?

because they stun one character and then the rest of the party kills them within the round.

But there are often multiple ghouls.

and collectively they will be a higher cr encounter.

iirc the save dc isnt all that tough, either.

DC 11 Constitution save.

In a game where the majority of classes lack Constitution save proficiency...

but basically everybody brings it up to at least a 14. so thats a bit better than 50/50 for the classes that lack con save proficiency.

God, you are a crybaby; try not getting hit.

Why do GMs get salty when you start playing games on the phone when stunned?

Ghouls are one of the more under-CR'd critters I've encountered in Pathfinder. A pack of CR 1 ghouls and a couple ghasts can still be bad fucking news even for a decently leveled party if you didn't have a blaster caster or cleric to just dust 'em all in one go, as I discovered when I set my players against a ghoul nest in a haunted mansion dungeon. Yeah, they couldn't take too many hits, on the other hand there were saving throws rolled left and right against paralysis and disease and the party couldn't make all of them. No casualties, but they did need to burn hero points they were saving for the dungeon's end to stop the party's monk from getting Coup De Graced.

>What is Freedom of Movement

>Pathfinder
>improved
AHAHAHAHA no.

Something you're unlikely to have access to if a group of ghouls can actually be a challenge to the party.

Ghouls are CR1, so you can see a pack of 32 would be CR9, which should be a challenging encounter for a level 8 party. Barring that, a scroll is 700gp a pop, and something I usually buy ASAP because Ghouls and Mummies exist. You can grab the scroll at about level 3 for a rainy day.

>Ghouls are CR1, so you can see a pack of 32 would be CR9, which should be a challenging encounter for a level 8 party.

In theory. In practice, the wizard can probably make them a non-issue with a single wall of fire or something.

Just so you're aware, a single ghoul is meant to be a challenge for a Lv1 party, and you're meant to use throwing attacks and reach weapons against them.

>CR 1 = challenging for a level 1 party

Total horseshit.

To be fair, that is pretty lazy encounter design. In practice, I'd probably mix it up with some CR3 air elementals, and round it off with some Basalisks, or an Ice Golem or something cool.

yes. what do you think cr 1 means?

its challenging for a level 1 party. challenging mwans ~1/4 party resources in 3.x, and ~6-8 in 5e.

Four level 1 PCs will murder the fuck out of a single CR 1.

It's not exactly challenging.

good chance hell take out that 1/8th of tbe partys hp

In my games, stunned (or immobilized or w/e) players don't skip turns. The monsters just get to make extra attacks against them.

The effects that DO force skipping turns (sleep, etc.) are punishments for players who take big risks and fail or otherwise fuck up real bad. Not getting to play is the worst thing that can happen to a player (that's part of what makes dropping to 0HP so bad, beyond the possible loss of your character), so they should genuinely feel like whatever happens is their fault and something they could have avoided - this is what they're supposed to thing about until they can get back into play.

forces you to do something other than face tank the mob.

yes, fighters are capable of not blindly charging into an enemy.

Greatsword fighters are just fucked, I guess?

>What are slings

no, get behind a fucking palisade and use your damn bow you halfwit.

you can hail mary crit the next mob that doesn't stunlock, or level drain, or rust your armor. quit crying.

Because fuck melee fighters, am I right?

Just as not all 3rd level wizards can be effective against all magic elementals, not all melee fighters can be effective against all creatures causing stun.

You mean most characters.

>magic elementals

Are these even a thing?

Nothing stops you from having more than one weapon, user

because a game where the PCs and the Monsters don't play by the same rules is a game that gets boring fast.

Rarely do PCs get stun-locked, and if they do it absolutely shifts the focus of the battle from "kill the bad guys" to "protect our friend" and that's an incredibly fun shift to see.

Sure, it sucks when you get stun-locked, but everybody else is having even more fun and if you're not playing a tabletop rpg for the fun of the group, and only for your fun, just go play skyrim or something.

What is stunlocking?

Because they die quick and suck at hitting

>everybody else is having even more fun

Fucking horse shit, the others aren't having more fun because one guy doesn't get to play.

No more than other CR 1s.

>No more than other CR 1s.
Then they fit right in don't they?

A strength fighter will likely not be very good with a bow

No, because other CR 1s don't have stunlocks.

If it's not related to hp it has no effect on CR

And that's why 5e's CR system is retarded.

At level 1, 14 dex and +1 BAB gives +3 to hit versus an average AC of 12 at CR 1. That's a hit 60% of the time for 1d8, which is nearly half the average HP of a CR1 encounter. It's not ideal, but it's sufficient.

No, but they can fly, molest you through the earth where you can't hit them, blow away your gear, and that's just the CR1 elementals alone.