Why would anyone EVER play a martial over a caster?

>Deflecting lightning with what is effectively a lightning rod.
>Beating a wizard in initiative when he already saw you coming before he even cooked breakfast

I guess you dumped INT today huh?

>cleaving through the wizard before they've time to try it again
Where do you think he's throwing lightning from? The other end of your nose?

>assuming the sword isn't magic bullshittium
>assuming that seeing the fighter coming is going to help when they can easily outrun the bathrobe-wearer whose only physical action has been conjuring and eating large dinners and waggling a staff around

I was about to reply but then I saw and that's basically waht I was gonna say

Thank you for confirming INT is your dump stat.

Caster Supremacy is entirely based on false assumptions that have no real basis in anything. It entirely replies on indulging in a double standard, holding one category to absolute realism while letting the other do whatever it likes. Those who continue to advocate it are either trolls, idiots or people who have played 3.5 so long it's literally warped their brains into having trouble thinking any other way.

>"I get to pull out magic bullshit out of my ass because fuck wizards."
>"Wait, now you have a magic bullshittium golem, that's some bullshit >:("

>Catching a Wizard
>When teleport, dimensional door, misty step, haste etc. exists

You really dumped INT didn't you?

Whatever helps you sleep at night, bathrobe man

>this is my argument

>all fantasy settings are D&D
kek

One type of class needs magic to be mediocre while the other type of class IS magic and can PRODUCE the magic that martials need just to remain background characters.

There's a reason why there aren't any Tier 2 martials.

For Fun

>Thread is about caster supremacy
>Hurr Durr we're not talking about deeandee

So I'm guessing you dumped WIS too?

How do you stop a dude who can stop time while your best attribute is that you can hit things with a sword?

>assuming that a magic bullshitium golem is something a fighter would consider more unfair than throwing lightning

>assuming a wizard can cast 2 spells in the time it takes a fighter to run up and swing

...wow, you really don't high fantasy do you?

That is the assumption most of it is based on, yes. Which is only true in 3.5.

It's also circular logic. 'Things are this way because things are this way' is an awful reason not to try changing them.

>>assuming a wizard can cast 2 spells in the time it takes a fighter to run up and swing
He can if he was smart enough to stand far away. Or fly.

How do you stop a trained soldier when your best asset is pulling scarves out of hats?

>a setting where martials exist and wizards can easily stop time long enough to actually kill the martial mid-fight
>high enough level martials can't run through stopped time

you can't have both mate, it doesn't matter if it gets you off.

>Fighters assuming that a powerful mage can't cast two spells in the time it takes them to swing a sword
>Assuming the wizard isn't already out of reach of your sword
>Assuming he's just going to stand there and take it.
>Assuming the wizard isn't sending in a simulacrum to test you out before he demolishes you later
>Assuming Scry doesn't exist
>Assuming assumptions

Basically, you can only kill a wizard if they're young or retarded, gotcha.

Because were not playing 3.5

playing casters is boring.
If I got a key for every problem, where's the creative problem solving? You know, the fun part of solving problems, finding awesome solutions that aren't "oh I got a spell for that"

>the wizard's too far away to stab
>I'll just shoot him with my bow and arrow, it'll kill him one way or the other.

If there are two people who requires power from the same source then logic dictates that the advantage would go to the one who controls the source.

Mages produce magic items, while being magical themselves, and martials need magic items to keep up. Ergo, mages are more powerful than martials because they need mages to be powerful.

The fighter bends reality to his whim. In this reality there is a dumbass wizard trying to recite Urgamoff's Better-than-usual Explodining. He would like there to not be. He also has a sword. And now reality is as he pleases.

Meanwhile your wizard is trying to read thirty pages of arcane gibberish while being stabbed in the face and does halfway into the second paragraph.

Blind him with magic dust and stab him with a knife while he's disoriented.

>Not defeating the wizard through superior tactical thinking and skill

Do casterfags even know what high fantasy is?

One type of class needs magic to exist and work to even exist as a class.

The other just needs his hands, although a sword makes murdering wizards far faster - and if magic exists then he will magic up his sword too.

I'm not having both, dude who can't stop time is going to be murdered by dude who can stop time.

It's basic logic.

Mages producing magic items is very much a D&D thing.

In a lot of mythology, magical items come from potent and skilled smiths, who might have so much skill it seems supernatural, but are explicitly not wizards.

Again, literally everything you're arguing is only true in 3.5, and has no relevance elsewhere.

Or they fell from the sky as a chorus chanted "HAAAALELUJAH!"

How is he bending reality to his whim?

You can't just flex your ass cheeks and suddenly magic shoots out.

>>Assuming the wizard didn't learn magic out of fake books with spells that don't work because why would wizards ever write down spells that worked; he never tested his one spell-per-day because he couldn't risk being caught without a spell prepared, and so never got beyond level Commoner.

Nice try, scam merchant. Next time let your tea-dipped 'scrolls' dry out before you shill them.

>Fighters
>Tactical Thinking

2+INT would like a word with you chief. Also,

>Wizard
>Losing a battle of INT

Wew lad

>superior tactical thinking and skill
>against the guy who runs on intelligence

>but are explicitly not wizards.
Half the time they're explicitly gods, where all that shit goes right out the window.

...

you are having both though, for a wizard to easily beat someone with time stop they need to be able to stop it for as long as you like, you also need them to not be able to power through it. You are in fact having both.

If there are two people who requires power from the same source then logic dictates that the advantage would go to the one who controls the source.

Wizards would never write down spells that their enemies could just read, so new spells are never passed on and all wizards kind of suck.

Meanwhile there are entire schools of soldiers who easily murder one-spell wizards with centuries of refined techniques that they don't need because a prison shank would have still killed the spindly unfit fucker.

One type of class can't even hit the monsters that he's expected to fight unless he has a magic ring, a magic cloak, magic trinkets, etc. to boost his physical abilities beyond human bounds.

Meanwhile, the other type of class can just shapeshift into a bear and maul the fighter to death.

So the other half still neatly disproves your false and deceptive premise. Good to know.

Fighter can stop time by cutting it in half and stepping through the gap. What now?

Oh, basic logic. Then there is no magic, the fit and trained soldier easily kills the gullible fuck who wasted twenty years reading fantasy novels.

Pretty sure every magical item in mythology was produced by a God chief.

You can't just hire Black Smith and have Excaliber in a week or two.

Metamagic bitch
Quicken one spell, cast twice in one round.

Is this the one with the bodymind?

We get it user, you specifically wrote your setting to stroke your caster-hate-boner. But you wouldn't have had to if you weren't playing a system balanced by retards.

Reality says the wizard is alive.

The soldier has a sword and wants the wizard to be dead.

Now reality says the wizard is dead.

THIS. Heroic feats of impossible strength and skill, like throwing a boulder into a dragon with ease, is just as justifiable as magic. Have some imagination.

>Assuming the Fighter even got trained properly.

Soldiers are meant to die, not to succeed.

>>But you wouldn't have had to if you weren't playing a system balanced by retards.

You are literally endorsing playing 3.5 because it is unbalanced you dense fuck.

>You
Are you confused, user? Do you think you're talking to somebody you aren't?

Point to me one magical sword or armor or spear or item in general that wasn't made by someone who was 100% pure mortal.

>DnD minmaxing is representative of actual high fantasy stories

See this is why I only run DnD for people actaully familliar with the genre. They could still minmax but at least they'd know they were.

>actual high fantasy stories
Like what, user. If you say Conan, I'm going to make fun of you.

As a completely out there counterpoint, in Legends of the Wulin there is no real difference between casters and martials.

You have Warriors, Courtiers and Doctors alongside Priests and Scholars but those are all in addition to being a kung-fu badass. A Warrior might throw fireballs while a Priest, for all his ability to use curses and the mystic arts, might be a lot happier just punching you in the dick. And in that system, they all work on the same level of competence.

It really is just 3.5 sucking.

Point me to a wizard that's 100% pure mortal.

Merlin? Divine. Circe? Divine. Gandalf? Divine.

Excalibur

>>Verifiable contributions to history by soldiers include all of history.

>>Verifiable contributions to history by wizards include selling them shit like the Voynich Manuscript and killing Chinese Emperors by telling them drinking mercury will make them live forever, then being executed for being fuckwits.

Nice success boyo.

hold on while I pull up all of mythology ever.

You're assuming that a mortal man whose only marginal skill is swinging a sword would be capable of 1) Realizing that time has been stopped, 2) Power through the stopped time, and 3) Be able to do both at a rate that's literally less than a millisecond.

JoJo is a series where bullshit powers are the name of the game yet even in that series, time stop was only beaten by individuals who could either stop time themselves (which in this case would be other wizards) or people who could nullify its effects, like made in heaven's time acceleration power (which would fall under wizards again).

Your niche is that you can damage things in the physical world using a weapon, anything that isn't covered under combat is the purview of the wizard, the cleric, or the druid.

Stay in your lane.

Wizards receive 2 spells of their choosing every single time they level up.

That and Druids/Clerics have access to their entire spell list every time they decide to respec their spell lists.

It's cool that you made a setting where wizards all suck but even in that setting, wouldn't the wizards who made the spells still exist and still be powerful by virtue of your soldiers not knowing how to counter their spells?

>As The Man of Muscle Mystery, Flex Mentallo's powers are apparently vast but ill-defined. In a general sense, Flex can affect reality by flexing his muscles, in a reverse form of mind over matter. In the most extreme exertion of his power, he was able to transform the Pentagon into a circular building for a brief moment.

>When Flex uses his power, his "Hero Halo", a shimmering projection of the words "Hero of the Beach", appears above his head.

You're assuming that a mortal man whose only skill is literacy is going to be able to stop time because the world of fantasytopia doesn't work by normal rules, while a mortal man whose only skill is killing dudes can't, because the real world says so.

If shit's made up then I can make shit up too.

If shit's not made up there is no magic and the trained soldier wins unless he stabs the dude nonfatally then trips in the guy's blood and lands headfirst on his own sword.

>I'm allowed to do crazy OP bullshit and litterlly nobdy else is

The quintessential casterfag.

Not to mention twinned spell, which allows you to cast the same spell twice in one round.

>Reality says the wizard should be alive
>Contingency
>Teleports back to the safety of his wizard lair.

GG no re

Sure. Meanwhile either your PCs are the rare one in a billion and the wizard who actually knows spells is up with the best assassin in history, a leader of men who can rally armies out of peasants in weeks, and the high priest of a god that actually kills fuckers when asked.

Or your PCs are random schmucks and the decent soldier who got through one campaign is up against the local scholar who spent ten years savings on a book of magic that might not be fictional.

>History books always count the number of casualties but never the names of the fallen soldiers

>Meanwhile, wizards contribuite to the fall of emporers and have their names listed in the history books.

Nobody ever cried for a number boyo.

>>Teleports to his lair.
>>Forgot to take the sword out.
>>Dies anyway
>>Soldier gets mad and hunts down wizard's corpse to get his fucking sword back he spent three coppers on it fuckssake.

Contingency spells are explicitly BG yes re.

Wizards aren't supposed to be mortal user, the fact that they're magical puts them above mortals by default.

>>WW2: Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Churchill, all former fighters who saw combat. Literally thousands of books about them.

>>Meanwhile wizards have their best showing in all wars in history and have one British formation built of stage magicians who actually do quite well and have a dozen books written about some, some of them good reads.

Then you won't mind only being able to play wizards in games where other characters have divine ranks.

>You can't just flex your ass cheeks and suddenly magic shoots out.
Well, it works for the wizard.

I'd love to see those pics of fedoras with cringy captions, with the caption written from a caster's perspective

Only magic can defeat magic.

It's like saying that you should be able to kill a man by punching the air so hard that the shockwave kills them while refusing to use a projectile weapon that would already accomplish the job much easier.

Let me know when you bring the argument back into the stadium so we can continue this conversation mate.

Until then, last (you) you'll get from me.

Because I happen to play system where martials are better than casters in combat, and much more fun to play.

>Implying the Fighter is killing anything in one hit

Oy I'm laughin'

Seriously though, you're spending most of your time just running up to the guy. Also, you're assuming that a wand of CMW or health potions aren't something the wizard would have invested in for just such emergencies.

Listen we get it, you setting sucks for mages.

We're not talking about your fanfiction here, we're talking about the actual rules of the game.

Why would you ever skateboard instead of driving a car?

Literally the only special thing you can do is look like a sperg to get attention with tricks. "Oh look at me I can ollie!"

A properly tuned car can drive over 120 miles per hour, can carry your things, it can even carry other skateboarders, bikers, and all the other low teir transport devices.

>in b4 hur dur gas prices will slow you down

If your ever in a scenario where you have to drive further than a mile or two to get to your job, either you made a bad choice, or someone is railroading.

>in b4 cars are so expensive

I got mine in good working order for $300 off bizman. LEARN2shop nub.

I can't believe its 2016 and were still having theese threads.

I mean fundamentally all this comes down to a matter of false equivalency.

According to casterfags like martials can never rise above a common soldier while Wizards bend reality to their will and decide the course of history.

Meanwhile, anyone who understands basic storytelling and is talking about a setting where martials exist understands that a certain amount of parity is necessary for anything halfway dramatic.

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. If I've put in the same amount of time and effort into physical training as they've put into magical training, then our feats should be largely comparable.

Of course they get mentioned in the history books, they're the ones that wrote it.

Also, just for future reference, you might want to avoid mentioning literal dictators and murderers the next time you're trying to prove why fighters are so great.

Also, wasn't there a NAZI division where their whole goal was to tap into magic or some shit?

I wouldn't mind at all, at least then I'd be able to cast spells without the martials bitching about how powerful my spells are.

Hell, it'll lighten my load since I'd usually be the one carrying the party anyways, so I say go for it.

Because he's magical and is performing somatic components to cast his spells.

A fighter who is wiggling his fingers around just looks like a faggot.

...Wait, dude stop. We're not supposed to come to a resolution here. STOP BEING SO FUCKING REASONABLE!!!!

It's well known that the overpowered caster archetype was invented by bullied nerds and bitter virgins to self-insert into and feel superior to those idiotic martials(jocks, bullies, chads, normies).

It's also the reason why U was so overpowered for so long in MTG

Alright, so we're doing this again...

Let's do it. My only request is that we take this argument seriously, and at the end of it all we archive/screencap the finer points of the argument.

That way, the next time we have this thread, we can just direct OP to the Image/archive link and be done with it.

What say you?

I like playing Rangers and Fighters, because I enjoy playing those characters in a role play sense. That and I get really overwhelmed with spell casters, my desire to be optimized as fuck sometimes slows things down.

Because the time that you put into something does not always translate into a favorable outcome.

If I spent four years bashing my head against a brick wall, do you think that I should still be able to recite my ABC's as easily as someone who didn't?

Putting it another way, you invested time into a skill that isn't in demand and is quite frankly overflooding at this point in time and yet you're mad at me because I chose to invest my time in a skill that will only grow in demand as time goes on?

Give me a break martialfag.

Nah, I'd rather keep injecting my highschool insecurities into my tabletop and keep calling martials mongoloids

Too late, looking forward to your divine campaign, I wonder what a wizard with divine ranks can even do anyways.

This is going to be fun.

>If I spent four years bashing my head against a brick wall, do you think that I should still be able to recite my ABC's as easily as someone who didn't?

No but that head of yours is harder than the strongest steel, as evidenced by you fully ignoring what I said in that very same post you're replying to.

Seriously though, if you'resetting is like that then fair enough, but that setting is caster wank and you don't get to argue otherwise.