Warhammer Gen

New batch of questions for you guys who know a lot about Warhammer lore. Keep bias to a minimum if possible.

1. Since I've now confirmed the Golden Throne is failing I'd like to get your opinions on where the Emperor stored the blueprints for it. I briefly mentioned they could be hidden in the Mars vaults so here is my question; Could they actually be hidden in the vaults on Mars and if they have been why would the Emperor order them sealed with the Blueprints inside?

2. Why are the relationships between the Imperium and the various Chapters of Space Marines so strained?

3. Why does the Imperium outright refuse to negotiate on any level with the Eldar? They do share similar levels of technology and both fight against the same enemies but rarely themselves. (Yes I'm aware it is considered heresy by the Imperium but I'd like to understand why.)

[Special Grey Knight Question time]

4. There have been several hints that the Grey Knights (single most secret organization there is) have their OWN secret sect of Knights within their chapter who supposedly guard Chaos 'relics'. Can anyone enlighten me this subject or give me information about this secret - secret group.

5. Finally, why are there so few Grey Knights trained in general? All in all they are still human and share virtually every physical and mental property as any other space marine with the only difference being training. Both types of training have a high mortality rate but what exactly makes them so special.

>Why does the Imperium outright refuse to negotiate on any level with the Eldar?
because they're filthy xenos.

On top of which, they keep trying to backstab you and never explain anything.

Humor aside, do you have an actual answer to this one or could you elaborate on the one you gave?

They're sneaky and shit but I don't seem to recall them doing a whole lot of betrayal.

>1
No idea where the big E hid the blueprints. I'd imagine that they'd be in the hands of the mechanicus. Like most blueprints from millenia ago though, they're practically impossible to understand. Did he even use blueprints or did he just do it in one?

>2
Depends on the chapter. And I think you mean Inquisition, right? Because all Space Marines are part of the Imperium so it's hard to have a strained relationship with yourself. Some view the Inquisition as a bit restraining and not actually doing the right thing by not helping civilians (See Salamanders, Space Wolves), which isn't entirely wrong
>3
They're xenos.
>4
I've never heard of this until now. Has there been another GK codex? Last I played was in the reboot and I'm pretty sure it had no mention of this there.
>5
Physically they share similarities with other space marines but the mental property of a Grey Knight far surpasses that of even a Space Marine. The GK are all psykers, which is a rarity in 40k despite the massive population. Then those psykers are forced into one of the worst selection exercises ever. I think the aforementioned codex put the odds of an aspirant actually becoming a GK without being killed/kicked out/turned into a servitor at about a million to one. And to be a part of that million, you'd have to be a psyker on a black ship, selected as one of millions on it. So you'd be a one in a million of a million of a million to be a Grey Knight.

tl;dr

No one knows. Everything is true. 40k is dumb as hell but that's why we love it.

I did mean Inquisition, sorry.

In regards to the secret Order in the GK I actually forget where I read it, no surprise there right? I'm not making it up though and on some levels it does make sense. Daemonic artifacts are in fact recovered and examined, sometimes even tested but the GK come into real daemonic contact more often than anyone else so an order within the order to study and guard these things is completely possible and if anyone knows anything more about it fill me in.

>They're xenos.

So are the Tau though and some humans who still worship the emperor work with the Tau and it's actually not that uncommon so excluding the 'it's forbidden'.. why not Eldar too?

It's less "betrayal" and more "the Eldar would kill literally 1 billion humans to save a single Eldar."

Which is mutual between them and the Imperium (who would happily genocide the entire Eldar race to save a single human), but the Eldar are much better at it, so the Imperium policy is to try to not get snared into their bullshit.

They betray people literally all of the time. If you've ever had dealings with an Eldar, you've been betrayed, somehow.

Eldar are concerned with exclusively their race and their race alone. They're well-known for sacrificing billions of humans to save a single ship of Eldar, especially if there's any important people on that ship. Not to mention what they'll do for the craftworld.

They consider humans only as "They who must be purged" a.k.a. the Mon'Keigh. There are generations of hatred on both sides, but the most important factor is that to an Eldar, the destruction of the human race is worthwhile if it means that their tea doesn't get disturbed for one day.

What the fuck. Why do the Eldar hate the humans so much? I have 'extensively' read into their lore and haven't found any special event that might even SLIGHTLY suggest the humans did anything to them outside of what war in general causes. The Eldar are singularly at fault for creating a chaos god and nearly destroying everything, and I do mean everything with their bullshit. They have absolutely no reason to hate the humans and everything to gain from an actual real treaty or some kind of alliance. They are almost completely dead as it is and while they grow weaker the Imperium grows stronger. The end result will always be their death.

If they are so intelligent why can't they understand this?

>3. Why does the Imperium outright refuse to negotiate on any level with the Eldar?

Ideological reasons. The Imperium is not what we, as an educated 21st century culture, would consider sane. Or at least not reasonable. The Imperium's overwhelming belief is that the galaxy belongs to mankind and mankind alone; every other species needs to be exterminated to make room for humanity's expansion. The Imperium has far more in common with bloodthirsty religious zealots like ISIS than it does with people in America, Britain, or even Russia.

It's also worth pointing out that the Eldar are not a unified whole. Each Craftworld is a law unto itself, with its own culture, outlook, and relationship with the Imperium. Ulthwe has often worked with Imperial forces in the past to deal with mutual threats like Chaos and Necrons. Biel-tan, on the other hand, wants to exterminate humanity just as much as humanity wants to exterminate the Eldar. You can't negotiate with the Eldar as a whole - you'd have to negotiate with each Craftworld independently.

Because their race is neering extinction and they will do anything to preserve it.

So there are in fact instances of SOME Eldar working with the Imperium, i.e conditional treaties. Can they build upon those relationships? Their philosophies, both human and eldar share very similar levels of morality and both want to expand and preserve what they are and only the Imperium will succeed in this if something doesn't change.

Also Ynnead is just going to fuck everything up even more.

>where the Emperor stored the blueprints for it.
The Emperor found the Golden Throne already on Terra.

>and haven't found any special event that might even SLIGHTLY suggest the humans did anything to them

The Imperium has destroyed a number of Craftworlds. That isn't just a military loss, it actively damns the souls of every departed Eldar within the Infinity Circuits to eternal torture at the hands of Slaanesh. They've also repeatedly invaded Maiden Worlds with no way of defending themselves, slaughtered the Exodite clans living there, and destroyed the native ecosystems with their colonization efforts.

By and large, most Craftworlds want to be left alone to try and survive as best they can. Outside of zealots like Biel-tan, they go to war because they believe they don't have a choice. By contrast the Imperium genuinely wants to see the Eldar, all of them, dead and buried. They aren't high on the Imperium's shit-list - Orks, Chaos, Tyranids etc are all much more pressing threats - but if they would quite happily destroy the whole species if they could.

>Can they build upon those relationships?

No. You don't seem to understand that the Imperium is ideologically opposed to the basic concept of long-term alliances with aliens, and the Eldar are too proud and embittered to admit they can't survive alone.

The only faction in the setting which is actively trying to unite the galaxy long-term are the Tau, and even that boils down to "bow and scrape enough, and do exactly what we say, and we won't exterminate your populations and annex your planets by force."

>The Imperium has far more in common with bloodthirsty religious zealots like ISIS than it does with people in America, Britain, or even Russia

really makes you think h-uh

>the GK come into real daemonic contact more often than anyone else so an order within the order to study and guard these things is completely possible and if anyone knows anything more about it fill me in.
The Purifiers are what you are talking about.
Basically, daemons are housed, sometimes by force, into objects because they are too goddamn dangerous to let free in the Warp, even if their truename is known.
So they bind them, or if they find an item with a daemon already bound, take the whole damn thing, lock it in a vault, and leave it there.
A bound daemon is entirely unable to affect the greater Imperium, but they can tempt those nearby, which is why some have circumstances attached, like the blade the leader of the Purifiers wields, which is actually a daemonweapon so perverse that he has to keep it with him to fight off others who will inevitable come to take it.

>The Imperium has destroyed a number of Craftworlds. That isn't just a military loss, it actively damns the souls of every departed Eldar within the Infinity Circuits to eternal torture at the hands of Slaanesh. They've also repeatedly invaded Maiden Worlds with no way of defending themselves, slaughtered the Exodite clans living there, and destroyed the native ecosystems with their colonization efforts.

Seems on par with everything the Eldar have done to the Imperium, i.e sacrificing billions of humans to save one Eldar ship.

Both sides have suffered a considerable loss but I am starting to understand it boils down to both sides are in the others way and that is the only reason they are at war.

Since you also seem to know a lot about the Tau can you elaborate on their insanity? I feel like all I've read about them has been propaganda and the whole peace loving facade is bullshit. Have they committed any great atrocities relative to the rest of the races?

Also, thank you for explaining.

Not really.
There is a reason the Imperium is called Catholic Space Nazis, the religious grandstanding and faith sanctioned ultraviolence of the classic Catholic church with the Ubermenschen mentality of the Nazis. In Space.

>I feel like all I've read about them has been propaganda and the whole peace loving facade is bullshit. Have they committed any great atrocities relative to the rest of the races?
They offer peace and prosperity at the barrel of a gun.
They can, and have, put races to the sword if they would not surrender to their rule, but these are the many minor xeno races that get little pen time.
Honestly, I'd love to see Tau v Hrud, that shit would be wild.

>Seems on par with everything the Eldar have done to the Imperium

A dead human is just dead. Their souls dissolve when they enter the warp and that's that. Eldar souls retain their awareness and sense of self, and unless they're captured before entering the warp, are consumed by Slaanesh and tortured for eternity. Actively destroying a Craftworld, and consigning the billions of dead Eldar stored therein to such a fate, is a war crime beyond anything the Eldar could inflict upon the Imperium. Even if you ignore the ethical issues, it means Slaanesh grows in power, worsening the threat Chaos poses to the material universe.

>Have they committed any great atrocities relative to the rest of the races?

Less than the other factions have, because the Tau try to maintain the image of being reasonable, enlightened beings saving the galaxy from itself. But they're still a ruthless, expansionist military empire. If the Tau want your world, and you don't submit, they are entirely willing to bombard it from orbit until it relents, or invade and wipe out any trace of resistance. There's also a lot of 1984-style horror implied to be going on within their society. Fire Warriors who don't make the grade disappear, and everyone pretends they didn't exist. The Vespid couldn't communicate with the Tau until special "translation helmets" were given to their leaders, at which point the whole race happily bent the knee and allowed themselves to be absorbed without a challenge. One novel has shown Tau soldiers happily firing into melees involving their human auxiliary allies, not caring about the collateral damage.

You can argue the Tau are the 'least bad' of the 40k factions, but they aren't good either. In most Sci-fi franchises they'd probably be the bad guys.

On the flip side, there's plenty of existing lore that gives credence to the Eldar disdain for humanity.

>They refuse to cooperate
>They infest and exploit maiden worlds
>They kill your Exodites, Pathfinders and travellers
>Every now and then they gather together and destroy a Craftworld
In specific lore pieces, it gets even worse.
>They attack the army you sent to HELP them against the Tyranids, because they listened to the Hive mind prank calling through a corrupted vox channel.
>Space Wolves void an alliance because of a mistranslated missive seen as an insult, even after the Eldar took pains to recover and return their dead to them.
>Human governor kills an entire Eldar ambassador party and turns their soulstones into a necklace, even when offered way better presents AND being allowed to keep the maiden world he was living on.
>When Iyanden manages a parley with the Inquisition and suggests that pre-emptively destroying a single forge world will prevent it from becoming a daemon world in the future and damning entire systems, the fucking Legion of the Damned appear and kill the entire Farseer council.

After all these headaches and heartaches, it's just easier to blow shit up and withdraw once you got what you came for.
Imagine if the Eldar had politely asked Betalis III's governor if they could walk into their mines and dig out the dead Phoenix Lord. Chances are Iryllith would be sitting in an Inquisitor's lab having his soul stones cracked one by one.

>Honestly, I'd love to see Tau v Hrud, that shit would be wild.

Already been done. The Tau offered the Hrud a chance to join them. The Hrud refused and so the Tau kicked them out space.

you must have just started 40k then. the eldar schtick is billions of humans are worth less than one eldar life. they only "help" to further their own agenda and would sacrifice all of humanity just as quick.

>>They attack the army you sent to HELP them against the Tyranids, because they listened to the Hive mind prank calling through a corrupted vox channel.

I hadn't heard about this. Source?

1) Doesn't really matter. They're probably long gone by now.

2) Because Space Marines have a certain degree of autonomy largely unheard of in the Imperium at large. This probably makes it a bit uncomfortable for a lot of institutions who view them as unreliable (which they often are).

3) They don't. They have negotiated and even formed alliances, albeit extremely rarely.

Don't care about The Grey Mary Sues.

Because the Eldar are enigmatic edge lords that have no set position in the universe that can be isolated.

The Tau are left in place to soak up invasions so that the Imperium can focus on their own terrible strategic situation... When that changes, they'll send a crusade out to deal with them. They've tried it twice before and stuff came up to prevent them from finishing the job.

Since the Imperium can't pin to Eldar down for a power fisting, it's just an annoyance that they have to deal with.

Like the Tau, sometimes Imperial and Eldar ambitions line up... But sometimes they bring them into conflict.

They're purely allies of convenience.

>Ynnead
Yeah, Watch Captain Artemis killed Ynnead - no threat there.

>eldar souls are just more important than human souls

Behold the filthy xeno in all its hideous glory!
Everyone's out for themselves; there is no peace, no mutual understanding, and no forgiveness in 40k. There is only survival.

>A dead human is just dead. Their souls dissolve when they enter the warp and that's that

Maybe if you're an unworthy tool. The souls of the righteous join the Emperor and wait with him for the final battle against Chaos.

>1. Since I've now confirmed the Golden Throne is failing I'd like to get your opinions on where the Emperor stored the blueprints for it. I briefly mentioned they could be hidden in the Mars vaults so here is my question; Could they actually be hidden in the vaults on Mars and if they have been why would the Emperor order them sealed with the Blueprints inside?

>3. Why does the Imperium outright refuse to negotiate on any level with the Eldar? They do share similar levels of technology and both fight against the same enemies but rarely themselves. (Yes I'm aware it is considered heresy by the Imperium but I'd like to understand why.)

Isn't it clearly stated in the 7th Edition codex Mechanicus that as the Golden Throne is failing more and more the mechanicus and a bunch of radical inquisitors went to Commoragh to strike a bargain most likely involving fixing it?

1. The Emperor doesn't seem to have trusted Mars with everything. In the event, this was actually wise - several key technological developments were (initially at least) only available to the loyalists during the Horus Heresy, and the power of (traitor) Mars seems to have been essentially broken by the time of the Siege of Terra.

Consequently it is extremely unlikely he placed his most valued designs in the care of Mars.

2. Because various Chapters have mutations (mutants are not tolerated), behave in ways that test the limits of tolerance and sanity (much like the traitor legions once did) and as it's known they can go rogue, and as the memory of the Horus Heresy is literally ingrained into the Imperial Cult, there's a lot of distrust flying around. Since Chapters no longer come under any central command and have a high degree of autonomy, it's natural to view them with suspicion when they act against the interests of other groups within the Imperium.

3. The Eldar's ruined civilization is light years beyond Imperial technology. The Ordo Xenos does occasionally have dealings with the Eldar (as do other groups, if they feel able to get away with it). The Eldar are not a unified race and do not discuss their situation with outsiders, making it difficult to ascertain which group you are dealing with and whether they are related to those raiders who've been blowing up your ships for a thousand years. Consequently trusting them is difficult; and as other anons have pointed out, the Eldar act in their own interests, not anybody else's. Humanity also acts in its own interest (or the Imperium tries to). This makes them opposing forces - ones which have been slaughtering each other for millennia.

4. The Grey Knights collect information on daemons and daemonology and hold it in their librarius. I don't know of any secret group nor see the purpose to such a group, though it's unlikely any individual Grey Knight other than the Supreme Grand Master is privy to the whole Chapter's organisation or possessions. Even then, I doubt the Draigo spends his nights looking up old Daemonettes in the library. There would simply be too much to know, and too great a risk of it corrupting them.

5. Secrecy and logistics. If the Grey Knights were anywhere but the Sol system, the amount of materiel they consume and the numbers of psykers diverted to them would be easily discovered over time. Knowing that they exist at all is a very rare thing; knowing where they're based is restricted to a very few individuals indeed.

A standard Chapter with an arduous geneseed implantation process - one where the slightest mismatch causes failure of an implant - will have a very high bar set for preselection; in effect, you might go through a hundred first-stage candidates before finding one who is viable as an aspirant (and the geneseed problem comes into play here - you can't easily manufacture more and drastically increase your recruitment). Of your aspirants, in a difficult Chapter perhaps one in a hundred might survive to become scout company members; in effect each single marine (in an ordinary, but difficult Chapter) costs 1,000 lives, but produces an unparalleled warrior who will experience an extended lifespan and be useful in ways that deploying those 1,000 as ordinary soldiers never would have been.

With the Grey Knights, you have these problems as well as the need for psykers - but not just powerful psykers (who are probably

He blew up the unique moon they were using to focus their ritual and give Ynnead a cesarean birth. Not the same thing.

Doesn't say anything about fixing it, just "in the grave cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck". By Xanthites - an extremist faction within the Inquisition that believes in using the power of Chaos against itself.

Since the only things under Commorragh have nothing to do with Chaos (which isn't welcome anywhere in the city, because, y'know, the soul eating thing) and everything to do with using Eldar science to unnaturally prolong life (through the consumption of souls, no less), it's more likely they figured out what the Throne actually does and finally figured out that the Eldar, specifically the Dark Eldar, have experience of similar processes, and went to find a Haemonculus Coven willing to aid them for a price (like, say, looking the other way while the coven steals a hive world's population).

Even if radicals were prepared to try and bring Xenos into the Imperial Palace, the Custodes would fuck them up as soon as they tried.

1. Emperor didnt build the Golden Throne, he found it in the Himalayas.

2. They arent strained but SM chapters are inhuman in the extreme, they are monsters mankind has created in order to fight monsters. They are revered as saviours or feared as they are the Angels of Death.

I thought it was implied that the help was going to be "how to fix the throne" without actually bringing deldars on terra. And going by imperium standards, probably even gifting the deldars with mpre than a couple whole hive/forge worlds (well under control of those inquisitors and mechanicus magi) would be one hell of a deal for the knowledge on how to fix or restore the throne functions.

Read the tale, user: Ynnead died. Only a faint whisp of a hope of his soul possibly one day in some rare future managed to slip away.

In the same way the Tau killed Slaanesh, right?