Making unarmed fighting relevant

In games where one can usually choose from a plethora of weapons both melee and ranged what is the key of making unarmed fighting relevant? Since the two clash in the sense that other weapons are supposed to improve the player's abilities beyond just punching things. However on the other hand (pun not intended) if unarmed fighting is just as good or potentially even better than fighting with weapons that renders the other weapons useless and the whole idea of getting better weapons becomes a moot point.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=3GP-vjQY0zc
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Well, either we´re going full magic setting, or you´re playing a character that doesn´t do anything else than training 24/7, Shaolin Monk style.

Still, you really need weapons when it´s about killing other creatures. We´re just not made for fighting with our bodies.


Alternatively, go full dwarf fortress. Shame that I lost the next screencap where I killed the crocodile, then used its corpse to crush another crocodile´s head.

Let´s see if I´ve got some better example...

For example.

That fucking bronze colossus completely crushed a 20-30 men party, most of them veteran soldiers. Except for that cheese maker, who decided to tag along and met an untimely fate.

When has unarmed fighting been relevant IRL?

1) When the situation isn't serious enough to escalate to weapons.
2) When an authority that you fear to disobey has forbidden you the use of weapons.
3) When you can't get to your weapons, maybe because you've been surprised without them.
4) When the image you want to project is not consistent with carrying weapons, but you still need to fight people.
5) Sport.

To expect the unarmed fighter be as a effective in a straight-up fight as the armed fighter is retarded. There'd be no need for weapons, like you said. But there's plenty of room in tabletop games for retarded but fun ideas.

You need some kind of magic that makes unarmed fighting viable, and isn't compatible with using weapons, because there really aren't any weapons that aren't at least a little more effective at killing than bare hands.

Monks in D&D are a fine example, although I despise monks in fantasy settings, thematically.

i fucking hate unarmed bullshit.

it's made even worse by the fact that monk type classes are always trash

Turn unarmed fighting into a mystical discipline that require a lot of time and effort. Since it takes a lot of training, most people will rather stick to their easy-to-master swords rather than spending a lot of time on unarmed fighting.

There, done.

Either go with magical or technological inventions, e.g. Shadowrun

You can become a physical adept who can fuck shit up with his fists and do elemental damage or even punch you from 10 feet away, or you can just implant shit in your bones and muscles that makes them so hard that you can fuck shit up with your fists.
Also a nice surprise if enemies think you are unarmed

The real question is, how do you make ARMED fighting relevant if unarmed fighting is?

Because with unarmed fighting you don't have to worry about the GM pulling bullshit like locking you up and taking away your weapons.

Unless said unarmed weapons are either organic or was just simple attached to them as if they were built since birth

Honestly? Make classes based on it. It's similar to gunslingers with guns in pathfinder. You need a class that makes punching shit viable. Typically, this ends up with monks, or you can be someone who gets super beefy, or something.

Honestly, you could also go full anime weaboo, which to be frank, is the easiest way. Training your body, to throw ranged punches, firing off attacks made of your spiritual energy. You know, that type of stuff.

Upgrade your unarmed attacks like weapons, with similar progression. Maybe magical tattoos or emboridery?

>To expect the unarmed fighter be as a effective in a straight-up fight as the armed fighter is retarded
THAT entirely depends on training.

I've trained in karate, and used it to win fights against relatively inexperienced people with swords.
Admittedly, they were wooden swords, and we were drunk at the time, but my point stands. An unarmed fighter that knows what they're doing defeats an armed fighter that doesn't.

I like the magical tattoo idea, maybe have a golden path kind of thing were you travel the world visiting different tribes to get/earn their tattoo

In any setting where high fantasy is involved, within system and believability, it doesn't matter if you are armed with sword or fist because the power center is the player and their agency, not their equipment.

Armed and unarmed are a distinction because of realism. You will not win unarmed against a weapon. That's reality. But in a setting as above, you're drawing from mystic history, or chi, or fire magic, or heroic power, or one of any number of things.

Now, this often doesn't translate well in cheap clunky systems like DnD. That might be the crux of the issue(based on op art choice and such). Try other games op. Like hero or gurps, where the player isn't tied down with stupid trappings.

Good lord your fedora must be MASSIVE

beat me to it.

>A fedora to rival even THE GODS
>If I even believed in such simple things as gods, enlightened by atheism and science as I am
>CRACKS KNUCKLES IN FINGERLESS GLOVED

So, Monks.
You had a good post going there, but then you had to go full GURPS in the final line.

Hey kid... Interested in some dank arcane tier martial arts?

If you are talking about a setting where all sorts of magic and people performing impossible feats exists then you can't whine about unarmed combat badasses being able to kick ass sans weapons.

Also stop playing D&D

>Implying any weapon is tough enough to suit my strength

watch shadow skill
you will get some ideas

youtube.com/watch?v=3GP-vjQY0zc

in this scene she gets a bit worked up over a stupid rock

so sorry about the horrible abysmal english dub guys.

Indeed I am good sir

>I want to be better than an armed and armored dude
/a/ is that way

There's multiple heroic figures of myth and legend that were stronger than armies of normal soldiers while naked and swinging whatever crap was around them.

yup demigods or half-gods are a good simple template for this. but the eastern mystic mastering and even projecting chi approach works also.

You know why weapons exist? Because our hands aren't killy enough. Face it, unarmed builds don't make sense unless you add some sort of equalizer - let's say technique, magic/miracle bs, etc. ad nauseum.

The rest of us realized that user meant 'all other things being equal', but not you, huh.

But please, tell us more about what a macho little boy you are.

Wizards are based on Merlin, Cyrce, etc who are also demigods, why that class has a pass on their bullshit but Brawler (Hercules) doesn't?

Because this isn't a goddamn anime.

Because it was literally nerds venting their frustration on alpha males bullying them with their superior physical capability and banging all the chicks.

He literally just mentioned settings of western myths you dumbass.

No, it's a serious tabletop rpg.

The seriousest.

>Hercules
>Not anime

what system are you playing where unarmed isn't a viable option?

Remember kid, when in doubt, hit them with your soul, shit works. Also if you're muscular enough you count as wearing a full plate.

Also velez' is literally perfect at low levels or a phys build, enjoy that armor penetration.

Oh shit! Imperium's here, gotta scramble.

Iron Heroes
3.PF

>That pic
??? isn't that the winner of the first Tao Zan? Magnus something?

so when I want to learn dark dank martial arts.. you say to hit people with my soul?
What the fuck sempai! I thought you had some sweet martial arts to pass on to me or something

Yes, that's the joke.

Reminder he's one of the most absurdly stupid min-maxed characters to ever exist and is even more useless than the average Veeky Forumsnoob 3.5 "god" wizard until level 8 (16 on D&D equivalent) and ignoring all of the learning time rules (or sanity).


>Not being so good at martial arts you can hit people with the weight of your life essence as pure power

It's fine, you can still just hit them with 20+ x4 str damage armor breaking while wearing the equivalent of heavy plate armor without penalties and grappling other martials so they don't do shit against you.

Play Anima. If your fist-fighters aren't pulling more weight than anyone else in the party, then that's because your mage hit their stride and build optimally, or your Psion has been getting good rolls on their Potential checks.

Man, I remember and miss the old Anima Spanish Forae.

Why not both? I mean, I played a Technician/Warrior Mentalist with a couple of martial arts (mainly Moai Thai to get God Hand and others), shit was so cash, having 16+ on every physical stat was the shit.

When I run con games, I allow the monk player the ability to use his willpower to push his body beyond normal limits, but at a cost. Attack faster, move faster, hit harder. After a certain duration, the body begins to fail, and if the player doesn't stop, they can send themselves into unconsciousness. Mind over matter and all that.

If your martials aren't gods of murder and death they're doing something incorrectly (or built too reliant on making themselves sick artifices).


Also, pic, no real idea of a good image for the psy-minmax monstrosities you can do.

>Also, pic, no real idea of a good image for the psy-minmax monstrosities you can do.
Hulk+Flash, that was my char.

Yeah here you go

Uh huh..

That's why the Chinese Emperor didn't have half the monasteries destroyed and nearly every man in them killed after a bunch of people who didn't use anything except their fists, feet, and peasant weapons wrecked the Mongolian army.

Was that or the sentry.

Although the Sentry is what happens when technicians+psy go high level nuclear. Because life is meaningless when you can be everywhere and nuke anywhere or create nukes that make the second impact look like a fart and the tsar bomb like a firecracker..

Monks in DnD are just muscle wizards.

In fact i'd rather have them as a Wizard tradition that gets MA and Ki (ki burning spell slots instead of being a point based system) at level 2 along with 2 extra Hp per level.

At 6 Extra attack 2 and magic fists bundeled into one.

Etc.

>Monks in DnD are just muscle wizards.
Sadly in the most predominant editions it sucks at everything forever

Situations where the others have their weapons removed like the classic "Guard asks you to hand over your weapons" trope.

I love how 99% of Gms use that situation as explanation on why monks/martial artist sucks so much in many RPGs, yet I only see that (or the caught off guard while sleeping, or rust monsters like, etc) maybe once every campaign (10 levels), and I have been playing many system for like 15 years.

Request third party content be made available. Path of War's Steelfist Commando and Aurora Soul Mystic are real powerhouses (Stay away from the Broken Blade discipline though, the numbers are way overtuned).

>3pp on Iron Heroes
Literally nothing, it has like 3 books and unarmed and unarmored combat is fucking suicide. Of course you can turn into monsters if you're one of the few casters and punch stuff, that's ok.

Was talking 3pp for 3.pf, you dimwit.

Mechanically? Just give it a niche. Grappling is an obvious one that benefits from two free hands.

DnD, in most editions, executes the concept of an unarmed fighter fairly well- one of the things it did get right.

>Can't grapple/trip shit once your reach a certain level
>Unarmed damage deals laughable damage and this without taking into account DRs
>"executes the concept of an unarmed fighter fairly well"
Are you going for sarcasm, for irony (unarmed should be shit compared to weapons and that's why it was executed "fairly well")?, srly, so many layers I can't get which are you trying to say.

I said most editions, not the single one where the monk is the absolute worst class.

What editions is good? Other than probably 4E?
AD&D (but AD&D didn't know that 'class' and 'balance' could be put together)
5E that has the same core issues 3.5E has?

In my system you can take a single character option, available to everyone, that makes unarmed combat slightly more effective than using a weapon. Given that you could instead choose a cool combat maneuver or the like, it comes out to be fairly balanced. It's entirely possible to play a character who can punch trolls to death and suplex manticores, and everything set up so that you won't be gimped for choosing to fight that way.

The big problem most games have with unarmed combatants is how brawlers can't use magical or enhanced quality gear. I avoid that by making most magic items grant a benefit at a cost, so magic swords either cost combat resources in order to get the benefits, or the attack bonus might be compensated by a defence penalty or the like.

4e is a given.

AD&D monks and 5e monks can actually do their job without tripping over their own feet. The 3.5 monk is a tragedy.

5e monks don't have a job or a role, they deal the lowest damage of the martials (even lower than some casters), they depend so much on stats that even with stardard array (the default) you're going to suffer. Srly, you only job is, once you reach 5th level, spam stun, and maybe hold the torch and some potions so the other members of the group don't have to search on their bags.

5e martials still have the 3e martial problem:
They're only useful in combat, and in combat they're not that good.

Compare for example Anima's and 3/5e's, while they both have very small overlap between class (ki in anima's case) and out of combat utility, anima's martials are very good at walking towards someone and murdering them, while 3/pf/5e's are no particularly better than semi-casters or some full casters (clerics and druids where a mistake) while having very much awful out of combat use. While anima's have small out of combat, but still can do stuff (IE; having absurd strength and lifting someone while they use ki-flight to make a ghetto flying spell, cloning yourself (although that's energy intensive), parrying spells, having more spare points for secondaries (as wizards and summoners tend to give a huge favoritism to magic app and occultism)).

3pf/5e martials have the same exact problem: You're bringing a very low amount of things to the table in and out of combat in comparison to other classes, making them quickly become unfun to play, specially since magical items are very much "for casters only" so you can't even become a craft-bot or a smith making your own competitive weapons ala monster hunter.

Compare, even inside D&D if you want to make it more obvious:
>High level fighter
AD&D->I have my cohort by class rules
3PF5E->I has shitty skills, and my damage is mediocre, specially since control is much better than "Walk and stab it"
4e->I bring near nothing out of combat but so do most classes, but good combat damage/tanking/control-ish.

And yes, monk has assorted stuff that he brings, but he doesn't tend to be able to share it, much like paladin's disease immunity, but paladin can heal and becomes a half-caster and as such, brings more to the group and is better lone-wolf than the full on martials except some barbarians who shit tons of damage during rage times, but again, even WHILE mad, they don't bring that much.

That is not the topic of the thread, though. The topic is about how unarmed fighting is to be made useful and comparable to armed combat in an unspecified system. Caster supremacy and systems that don't have it are a discussion that has been had many times.

DnD monks (3.5 excluded) tend to at least be competent at punching things. There are systems where the concept is better executed, sure.

This, 4e monks were billion times more useful than 5e monks.

The answer is in the post and should be stickied "If you want martials that do what they're supposed to do, and aren't shit: Play anima." the answer has ben the same for years, will keep being the same and will KEEP being ignored because numbers above 20 hurt 3.5pf players feelings.

>numbers above 20 hurt 3.5pf players feelings.
Hey now, haven't you ever seen that shitty game's number bloat? I was rocking a +30 on some rolls at level 3 last time I touched 3.5- no magic items on that, either.

I only play PbtA games nowadays anyways

This, I'm 8th level in a PF game (the horrible things one must do for his gf) and we're rolling like 40+ half the time.

It doesn't seem that hard to have magical weapons that benefit a hand to hand combatant, like enchanted gauntlets or fist wraps. And then enchanted clothing instead of armor along with accessories and talismans.
Magical power that takes the form of runes or tattoos on the body when imbued onto a person are pretty cool

But I prefer systems where individual magical items are actually interesting or special, and the system doesn't assume you will have an entire set of throwaway magical gear by such and such level and thus basically works it into level progression.

>tfw no DM is willing to indulge my martial arts fantasy of becoming the best Prize Fighter in the land
I just want to play Pic Related, is that so hard?

You don't get it, do you?

Comparing a level 10 unarmed fighter with a level 3 sword fighter is retarded on its own. You don't compare different fighting styles with huge gaps in experience between competitors. But you're just a fedoralord, so of course you don't get it.

>fist wraps
you mean brass knuckles right?

>Not magical priest blessed Hemp Ropes

>It doesn't seem that hard
Yet 3.PF/5e didn't do any of that

well i guess if you gave me bandages that make my fist unbreakable i could easily kill a man and dent steel with a punch.

> the Chinese Emperor didn't have half the monasteries destroyed and nearly every man in them killed

This is not the best argument supporting the power of unarmed combatants.

I was thinking moreso giving bleeding damage. Thai Boxers wore ropes before boxing gloves were invented, some styles of kickboxing still use just ropes and they cut you open something vicious.

meh skin woulds are inconsequential to winning a fight. i got worse scrapes from falling with a bike. no. but if you can hit as hard as your muscles allow you and not have to worry about breaking your bones that would be fucking brutal. i used to box. there was a world of difference between the punches you could do with a good wrap and gloves and barehanded. imagining if nothing could hurt my fists really makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Oh yeha I know, I have been watching combat sports since 2009. I just meant that if they were enchanted to make guys bleed like a stuck pig to do damage over time/make them woozy it would be neat.
In real life cuts dont do much, on the face atleast. Unless you get blood in your eyes. Systems need to calculate for that and give you a defense/to hit debuff.
>Open cut on left eye brow
>Start spamming called shots with right hooks.

Am I the only one that likes finding realistic ways to flavour the feats?
>Stunning Blow: Left hook to the liver/ uppercut to the solar plexus
>Leaping Attack:Flying Knee/ Superman Punch
I also get autistic and describe combos whenever I make multiple attacks.

dunno, it would work but i think it would be more fitting to pulverize the bones of your enemy and cause him internal bleeding than cut his skin wide open.

Eh you are probably right, I just always dig thematic appropriate gear for characters I guess.

In Exalted, there are Supernatural Martial Arts which are perfectly viable alternatives to weapons, but they take a lot more buy-in.

wat

I think Exalted of all things is a good example.
Builds with weapons are pretty good, and so are martial arts builds (that can use either form weapons or good ol' fisticuffs).

Of course, in Exalted it's the Wizard who is the speed bumb, not the fighter (in a situation that is pretty much the oposite of 3.5d&d)

You also get the only save-or-die in the game at level 17 and it's decently-priced ki-wise

>17th level
Might as well say never.

Also, misleading, there're 5 monk subclasses, only one gets it.

Misleading, there are 5 monk subclasses, and only one of them is worth taking

>and only one of them is worth taking
Sun Soul doesn't have quivering palm, the fuck are you talking about?

Oh shit right, they added a second viable subclass

Monks irl do use weapons you retard.