Hey Veeky Forums

If you listen to a bunch of Veeky Forums people you'd think it does.

Ops and Tactics is a Veeky Forums made hack of the D20 system. It's got flexible firearm rules that start simple, but there's a whole bunch of optional shit like

>Overpenetration rules
>Bullet scatter
>Different ammunition types
>Magic and fantasy races
>Sci-fi tech and races
>Chemical weapons
>WWII and prior weapons
>Fictional weapons
>Every gun that's ever been in a film
>Basically any gun you would have seen
>Generic "9mm pistol" rules for simplicity

I've read all the books but never run a session myself, so I'm not 100% on it. That said if you're familiar with 3.5 (which I am not) it should come fairly easily.

>Am I being too picky?
Yes, because in the abstraction of mechanics, there is actually little difference between different types of pistols/rifles that are not so granular it is more bookkeeping than fun.

D20? I thought he had switched to 3d6 at some point?

>Veeky Forumsmade
More like, one guy made everything, and he happens to browse Veeky Forums.

Dark Heresy does a pretty good job of being gritty and believable without going into simulation. Otherwise try Twilight 2000.

>World of Darkness?
Both World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness
But yeah, both aren't that great for realistic firearms. They are serviceable for the system, but because of the small health track there isn't that much room for variation between different guns, just big categories like "Small Pistol" "Big Pistol" "Small Rifle" "Big Rifle" and "Shotgun".

If you are interested in varied and modular (but not very realistic) firearms you could take a look at Shadowrun. But don't get an aneurism when magazines are called clips.

And, in general, what's your preferred balance between playability, realism of deadliness and the differences in guns?
(For Example, should a .380 ACP, 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Makarov be different stat wise? What about .40 S&W? .223 vs 5.45x39?

Oh wow, I'll definitely check it out.
I figured as much.
I just think it's weird that most weapons act exactly the same in rpgs, when in real life a person can definitely see/feel differences.

>just big categories like "Small Pistol" "Big Pistol" "Small Rifle" "Big Rifle" and "Shotgun"
WoD's Combat and some of the Player's Guides ad more. Likewise, nWoD's Armory and Armory Reloaded add a lot more options for specificity. The new nWoD edition, Chronicles of Darkness, has a book called urt Locker coming up soon. It'll probably have some new options, or perhaps just new versions of old ones.

Even so, I still wouldn't recommend either system if you're looking for a lot of granularity and realism.

Right on both counts, but i can't remember the creator's name aside from that they signed the PDF with a tripcode.

Also it's still using the 3.5/d20 modern rules as a base, just hacked to hell and back.

O&T has both which is why I recommend it. The Armory rulebook is basically just 300 pages of /k/. The "simple firearms" rulebook is a couple of pages.

Guns are tricky because they're harder to suspend disbelief around. Watching a character shrug off a gunshot wound with a night's sleep is a lot harder to stomach than them shrugging off an eldritch blast as-per d&d rules.

They're just too immediately, explicitly lethal for "you lose 10hp" to feel authentic.

>I just think it's weird that most weapons act exactly the same in rpgs, when in real life a person can definitely see/feel differences.

Well, in an RPG weapons are what they do from a narrative perspective. You do not need to account for minor caliber differences and weapon
isn't there for you to feel the kick. For character maybe, and that's what rleplaying is for.

Out of curiosity, what setting you thought of? It would be easier to recommend RPGs that fit themaically if we know the setting.

GURPS has just as much optional shit, if you do check out both and end up preferring GURPS.

RPGs are 90% math and abstraction. the last thing they need is literal autism from people who want to try and capture the differences between a 38. revolver and a 45. semi automatic pistol when ultimately such things matter little to a system meant for telling detective noir stories.

I enjoy people hinting that I have autism.
Reminds me of middle school.
In the setting, it's a near future post-post-apocalypse (how original!) but that's extremely unimportant to the actual setting. There was a massive planet-wide earthquake (so far that's the trigger, I might change it later) which fucked society, but since we're not animals we pretty much built everything back in a decade or so. There's still governments and companies and happy families.
The earthquakes also revealed a massive planet spanning science facility underground that was seemingly abandoned decades ago. It's not actually that big, but it is fuck-huge. The seperate parts are connected seemlessly by "cusps" (name in progress), which are portals that act more like windows. There's no transition when you go through one, it's just like walking through a door. The labs and stuff still aren't completely mapped, and are packed with shit that governments didn't even know they payed for (or could exist at their tech level).
These facilities are connected to cave systems which are even bigger. The caves are filled with mind bending sci-fi shit, and are the real focus of the setting in all reality. Kind of like the second season of an anime revealing that the first villain was a small fry.
I'm excited to work on it.
I kind of want that autism though.
I want a player to have a weapon and k is that there's a reason he has it as opposed to another weapon of similar size, but different caliber.
Of course I don't want my players to get to turn two an hour later, however.

The GURPS basic set has a bunch of guns in it.

Then they put out High Tech which has a billion guns in it.

Then they put out Tactical Shooting which has a billion optional rules for shooting people.

You want to play GURPS.

The players take on the role of individuals who go into the base for reasons known to them. Whether to explore for an anonymous forum that's curious, learn secrets for a terrified government, or to collect tech for the newly invigorated black market, the facility, and the caves, have more than anyone was prepared for.
I was heavily inspired by stalker, if it's not obvious.

So what do you want is players being able to pick up weird bullshit sci-fi guns/tech and use them as they descent into sci-fi dungeon?

I suggest focusing setting on that - the exploration and search part, guns being an important detail, but only detail. Super-detailed and varied to the point of autism guns work way better in vidya than in tabletop, you can actually see the fireworks and compare efficiency immediately there.

Another vote for GURPS.

I read Ops and Tactics, didn't like it for either tactical realism or believable firearms combat despite the admittedly well-done research put into the firearms catalogues.

Many people suggested GURPS. I'd suggest Cyberpunk 2020 with the Maximum Metal sourcebook for the big guns. Weapons have a lot of different stats allowing you to play around and create an endless variety of guns. Then, it also has a ton of different ammo types for the different guns (Blackhammer Cyberpunk Project: +P, +P+, JHP, JSP, FMJ, AP, APDS, DPU, HE, Glaser, HydraShock...). The only limit is the level of your gun autism.

There won't be many sci-fi guns, honestly. The firearms are going to be a mix of whatever is smuggled into the facility and the caves.
Anything from surplus Mosin-Nagants to state of the art military assault rifles.
And I won't be jacking off to the guns the entire time.
I just think a game should show whether or not a gun is bullpup or shoots a 7.62x54r after something happens that would be related to that information.

GURPS is your friend then.
It differentiates calibers and loads with damage and type rather well, as well as armor penetration.
You can make it low Fi, with just hp and damage, or hi Fi with overpenetration, bleeding, blow through cover, hit locations, etc.etc. and it's entirely granular in between too. Pick and choose what you want

Not this user, but additionally there are alternate ways to do firearm penetration through armor and survivability after the shot has connected with a character based on how realistic or cinematic you want to go.

If you just want detailed gun mechanics to wank over, then I suggest.
GURPS
Millenium's End
Pheonix Command
(last I checked Ops and Tactics was a giant pile of autism and shit... I'd stay away from d20 in general, unless you want to go really cinematic and corny. Everything about that system is wrong if you are looking for realism)

Unfortunately, while both of them are highly detailed there is a lot of shit in them that just doesn't make sense, is extremely unrealistic and cases of the designers not knowing as much about the subject as they think they do. The other problem with them is that actually running a firefight of any appreciable size is going to get prohibitively slow because they are just so detail oriented. For most of those a firefight bigger than a handfull of guys in with handguns is going to take longer to run than a single session. This is the crux with many RPG systems that focus on a particular subject; they get so bogged down in the minutiae, and forget the big picture, so what comes out the other end isn't actually very realistic. They are more games about GUNS that games about FIREFIGHTS. Still, they are viable option.

If you want a game to run longer military or paramilitary style firefights then the system needs to be way more streamlined. I suggest:
Twilight2000 (1st edition)
perhaaaaps Twilight 2013
...I'm sure there are others, but I cant think of any right now.

GURPS
Friday night firefight
Twilight 2000 v2
Twilight 2013
And if you want to go balls to the wall, Phoenix command