Do they need a lore nerf?

Seconding this. It's ridiculous in a wargame to have factions clearly more powerful than others in this manner. Kinda discourages people from armies.

Pre-Chaos Wank, the Tyranids were the eventual winner. When the main fleet arrived, they would win, but if anyone else got their victory condition first, they would be stopped. This is 100% better than Chaos's stupid "You can't stop us for some reason, we're just better cause we said so."

i wholefully agree
at least with tyranid victory, there is still some hope for the other factions, while for chaos it's just ''muh infinit multiverse chaos autowin''
(that and the fact that necron are the hard counter to tyranids)

They pretty much all do. Only the Tau lack a win-condition - as it should be.

that isn't true, it's obviously spreading the greater good over the galaxy, you silly !
the dark eldar on the other hand don't have any win condition, just a not-dying condition

Well when you think about it their win condition is just continuing on as currently is- just feeding off the continual carnage.

There's already enough whining about how they lose all the time (in their own codex!!!!!), for almost 7 years and counting.

>Pre-Chaos Wank
So, 1987?

Except Eldar. Their lore says "Hey guys, it's a countdown until we're all proper fucked! To Death!"

Same. Actually, I'd prefer Tyranids nomming down everything. The elves flee into the webway as best they can after Ynnead sucker punches Slannesh. The 13th crusade breaks on Terra but, Imperial forces are entirely spent and in their weaken state cannot fend of the massive hive fleets heading to Terra. During the time the Void Dragon awakes on Mars and the Necrons show up to wreck the admech or perhaps the ad mech submit to the Crons.

They have Ynnead. Unless Eldrad did fuck him irrevocably.

Not really. They are rather deficient in the planning department.

And the Narvhals can be screwed with pretty nicely.

40k factions all give off the edge of 'unstoppability'. Even the Eldar have their 'Ynnead is coming, beware' thing.

Their win condition would be freeing themselves from Slannesh draining their souls and surviving the opening of Khaine's Gate. Really just surviving the Gate opening. Also, I forget the quote but, Vect never loses.

IMO Nids are the last faction that needs a lore nerf. Right now they seem to be like
>Oh noez, Nids arrived!
>They are scary man
>No, really - buh huh, scary!
At first glance for me, as a newbie, they seemed to be a great threat, a fuckin biological steamroller. After I finished their codex I was like "huh, that's all?"

>Five 5's
That's the sign the Eldar were waiting.

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that bit. Somehow manage to always convince myself they got a deal worked out with Slaanesh, rather than just some eternal loan shark peeking through the window with a baseball bat/dildo.

That, and I feel like there's a lot more pathos to the Tyranids winning.

40k is a setting of empires destroying themselves and of tragedy. Chaos winning isn't fucking tragic, it's the bad guys winning. Having the entire galaxy wiped clean by an uncaring super predator and then moving on seems like a more fitting end and more deserved for such a fucked up place as the 40k version of the Milky Way.

Any faction winning is antithetical to the theme of stagnation in 40k. There is only war, never victory.

That said, if they had to end the series, the faction with the most players would probably win. I.E. The Emperor's Back.

Yeah, the arrangement doesn't seem to slow them down much. Khaine's Gate is the primary problem. Though, it seems Cegroach has taken both sides in the fight near the Gate as Harlequins back both Vect and Malys. What that means is anyone's guess.

Seeing the galaxy devoured by Nids would be great. Can anyone link hive fleet paint schemes...it doesn't seem there are many official choices...

Boooo! Your not wrong though and with Primarchs returning it's not out of the question that eventually he does return.

Chaos will win so that VIA contrived lel-warp bullshit, every existing faction manages to survive into the Age of Emperor.

GW will probably want to do same thing with 40k as they did with FB. Just pick some plot twist like "Hive Fleets were allure by Emperor to Terra so he could be finally dead and resurrected in new body" and start the Age of Emperor thing

>40k factions all give off the edge of 'unstoppability'. Even the Eldar have their 'Ynnead is coming, beware' thing.
Yes, but some do it more lazily than others. Orcs, Tyranids, and Necrons all get an everything-proof shield. The Chaos gods are so powerful they don't really need followers anymore, which is good because they're also so cartoonishly evil it's hard to see why anyone would follow them without mind control.

The games are in different places though.

FB was leaking players for a long time. 40k is their pride and joy.

They might do an M42 feature at some point, though. Keep the suspense up.

Well a lot of them ARE mind controlled or just broken mentally before being corrupted. They could use a good winding down on the whole 'super duper EVIL' though. A lot of it boils down to people just becoming corrupted by being slowly worn down over the years or quickly in a moment of desperation.

But my point is that that's shitty writing. It shouldn't be hard to see why people would willingly join (what is for most of them) the only viable alternative to the the Imperium given how they treat people, but because the Imperium HAVE to be the ultimate good guys so that [insert writer's favorite chapter] can be the white knights in shining armor, Chaos is almost never allowed to be relatable.

indeed, especially if they show a final pan out of just how vast the hive fleets are, the Milky way was but a small morsel to an inexorable and ultimately suicidal force

Stage 1 Chaos is relatable.
Slaanesh likes orgies.
Khorne likes honorable combat.
Tzeench like reading books.
Nurgle likes misfits.

Problem is, the lore states that Stage 1 will always inevitably lead down the rabbit hole to blithering comic book villain.

But at the same time, fans of Chaos enjoy that. They like the "give me your skull" thing. It's a niche, but a popular one.

Honestly, if 40k end times does go down, I'm half expecting the Tyranids to be the like the Lizard men and just say "fuck this we are out of here."

Well in a way it makes sense. They're CHAOS - they don't do anything halfway. It's perfectly acceptable that people join in 'stage one' and then go down the rabbit hole into being a crazed fucking monster. That's what Chaos wants - they're taking human emotions to their utmost extremes.

The Undivided groups are a lot more relateable though, mostly because they don't devote themselves to one god and lose themselves to that god. They could do a lot with that idea actually - the kind of mental resillience it would take to not lose yourself to the Ruinous Powers while simultaneously working for all of them at once.

I'm not sure the Word Bearers qualify as more approachable.

It seems like by the time you get to 'undivided', you're already cackling into the warp.

I do like the (usually unexplored) 'hedge witches' and other warp-things that are lored to pop up on distant planets. But that's largely the stuff for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader games, rather than the main tabletop.

I'm trying to think up a counter-argument to this, but you're probably right.

What the fuck is this Age of emperor meme

Can 40ktards do anything right?

Don't post that picture please. We don't need to be reminded that most 40k franchise games are or end up as garbage.

It's people who are STILL butthurt over AoS pretending to not understand why they did it and acting like 40k is going to get the same treatment to have yet another thing to whine about

40K sales are down. This prompted GW to advance the plot. If they decline more, GW will start making drastic measures.

So here is the plan guys. We boycott 40K for a while. We need to get the sales levels to WHFB before the End Times level. We can bring the 40K End Times this way. You on the plan guys?

Jokes on you

I never played the Table top games ever only the RPGs and video games

I used to read BL but their huge focus on the Horus Heresy and other bad series made me drop them

Then you need to return to /v/,

>I used to read BL but their huge focus on the Horus Heresy and other bad series made me drop them

1 million times this I only collect miniatures but the entire war gaming community for 40k is absolute balls

How am I /v/ if I played the RPGs?

Because you never supported GW so your another type of lorefag cancer on this board

No, 40K autists just need to stop taking the lore literally.

the what are we supposed to take it as? lore needs to be reliable dammit

>the what are we supposed to take it as?
An excuse to bash your army dudes together, as is its actual purpose in life.

>lore needs to be reliable dammit
Only if you intend to cite it in stupid arguments on the internet.

Do what I do

Dont be a Horus heresy/Black Libary faggot who enforces their work like the word of the emperor himself

Take it as a setting not a story

Play the RPGs

if objective sources cant be cited why even have lore?

>not a story
the fuck?

So you know the backstory of your army you like.

Its okay to like Tabletop or lore but autismos around here take each one to seriously the tabletop fags being rallied into the general and then lorefags shitposting stupid ass threads about who would win or some retarded scenario

Its a setting the story parts are all retarded and most of them should ignored IE. Horus Heresy,Beast Arises which is fucking sad BL has pumped out a good book in ages

Codex lore is explicitly propaganda for the codex faction.

BL lore is explicitly stories which may or not may be true.

The whole point of 40K as a hobby, unlike the historically based miniature war gaming it's descended from, was that you could make up your own factions. It's a sandbox setting; you're supposed to use your damn imagination, not get into pissing contests over non-existent "canon".

>lore needs to be realible
>40k

I dont know whose worse lorefags or tabletopfags

>canon
>nonexistant
I don't understand, I need objective answers, I hate guessing and fumbling because I could be wrong

>pretending to not understand why they did it
See what I mean? Fantasy wasn't in some minor slump. It was basically dead from a sales perspective and there was no reason to continue supporting WHFB. Their options were to scrap it entirely or rebuild everything from the ground up. There's no reason to believe they'd do that to the IP that actually makes money.

>Lorefags

Like to start stupid shit,suck authors dicks and just get into useless arguments over mundane shit think they are top tier 40k fans after reading lexicanum for 3 hours and take the entire setting to seriously

>Tabletop fags

Also like to start stupid shit but this time argue over "competitive" shit in a fucking plastic wargame and take it to seriously and act like jaded assholes most of the time

Missing anything?

Nice quints

>Do they need a lore nerf?

WTF do you think happened to them in 5th edition? Their lore was raped in some of the most retarded ways, 2nd only to the "We bath in the blood of Sisters of Battle' Gray Knights codex shit-fest. 2 editions and 2 more sub-par codex revisions haven't done them any favors.

>Having the entire galaxy wiped clean by an uncaring super predator and then moving on seems like a more fitting end and more deserved for such a fucked up place as the 40k version of the Milky Way.

Chaos is the sins of the galaxy come to claim it. Inner demons made manifest.
It's a far more fitting end than some crappy space bugs.

You're*

The whole "It's just a scouting fleet" thing is really ominous but its not confirmed as 100% true so maybe not

>I'm not sure the Word Bearers qualify as more approachable.
Probably not approachable but it's easier to understand their motivations - they literally worship the big four as real gods the way the AdMech do with calculators and washing machines. There's at least a motive there. Same goes for the Black Legion and Red Corsairs - they're much easier to understand from a human perspective than say plague marines where no sane human being would ever willingly become one.

I would like the opposite, more an endless back and forth, no side getting completely worn down or possessed of some eventual victory condition.

All you need to know is, I am Alpharius.

I should have been more clear. I agree that's the point of the setting, but I think it should be more of an early WWI style meat grinder. More "in practice, no one is ever going to have enough of an edge to break the deadlock" than "even on paper, it's almost literally impossible for half these factions to lose," if that makes sense. Look at orcs, for example. Unless every last orc spore is destroyed (again, almost literally impossible), they'll just repopulate. That makes it harder to care about any faction fighting the orcs, since they'll always be fighting a losing battle. Compare that to Abaddon vs. the Imperium, where there's a genuine back and forth. Yes, in aggregate the conflict is just as pointless because no one is going to win, but they COULD, which is better than the lore beating you over the head with how doomed everyone is from the get-go.

I don't like stagnation, it generally leads to a weakened setting and all the cool shit of the game disappearing because of artifical "grim dark" being added.

Also when it limits the setting eventually retcons are brought in to reseed the fluff with more cool shit to break which ruins the thematic loss in the setting.

I'd rather have escalating madness with every imaginable tactic, horror, secret gambit, hidden superweapons, and ancient relic being unleashed in greater and greater numbers until the entire setting escalates on all sides. Instead of gradual wimpering, the Imperium and all its enemies go out in a tremendous bang instead.

By the Way of Quints, Ynnnead yet grows

>Codex lore is explicitly propaganda for the codex faction.

Wrong. There is no nothing indicating this. In fact, the Admech and Stormtrooper dex showed them in a bad light. The Eldar dexes says they are dying and shows many of their defeats.

>BL lore is explicitly stories which may or not may be true.

BL and GW never said anything about this officially ever.

>The whole point of 40K as a hobby, unlike the historically based miniature war gaming it's descended from, was that you could make up your own factions. It's a sandbox setting; you're supposed to use your damn imagination, not get into pissing contests over non-existent "canon".

Nice pile of bullshit you puked out. You suppose to play and add your stuff within GW's story/narrative. However, your guys are utterly irrelevant to the canon/story GW is forging.

For example, if you played Oldcrons, then tough shit they no longer exist in the canon. You cannot pretend otherwise. Either play Newcrons or be left in the dirt.

oh god please tell me it's not EVERYTHING IS CANON, EVEN THE CONTRADICTIONS, ESPECIALLY THE CONTRADICTIONS time again

It's not everything is canon. That's just horseshit by the fans. Again, the Newcron vs Oldcron thing. Are the oldcron lore canon? No, you fucking mouthbreather.

It's easy. New stuff trumps old stuff. You know, retcons. Like every setting ever.

But Chaos players are fags.

In lore I feel Nids feel like the biggest threat, followed by crons, I know chaos is GW fucking baby and they always say its the big bad but they just don't feel like they are as threatening as nids or crons

>In lore

If you say this, then you didn't actually read the lore. Either because you are a fanboy or illiterate.

Chaos is about to break the walls of reality. The Warp itself will flood into reality and unmake everything. Time, space, and all life will be erased. Only Chaos will remain.

What is eating planets or waging petty wars of reconquest against the annihilation of all there is and ever will be? Chaos is just one step away from unleashing the apocalypse while the Tyranids and Necrons are not even close to anything.

God chaos wank is the worst, just like fantasy, doesn't matter about any other faction because "chaos is the scariest because!"

>"because"

They are near-omnipotent gods.

Necrons are just wacky machines and Tyranids are hungry animals.

No.

Nids are virtually the only non-Imperium faction in the game who aren't constantly failing at everything or totally insignificant.

my man

>this board only accepts company shills.
Nah.

Most of their Hive Fleet failed, user.

And there is no buts or ifs. Nid fleets objective is to survive and attain biomass. They got wrecked.

The fags who drift between and argue about literally nothing because they think it earns they cool points.

You, btw.

God no the whole point is they are a slowly encroaching unstoppable force.

If you really must nerf them slow there ships down even more they dont need that nerf but if they have to lose something make that it.

The last codex was pretty terrible.
The one before it was pretty good.

I did really like the story with the single assasian sending that leader insane though.

>I did really like the story with the single assasian sending that leader insane though.

I said they were the only ones not constantly failing or totally insignificant, never said they were doing well. Only the Imperium is ever allowed to actually win in the major narrative.

But nids can at least say they wrecked Gryphonne, Sotha and that they also rolled over Cryptus even with the beast of the Bangles and Necron agasint them.

This makes them god-tier compared to every single other non-Imperium faction in the game.

So stand by my point. They don't need a fluff-nerf

Here we go with imperialfags trying to push the harmless meme, don't you understand that there are objectively more important secondary objectives they succeeded? of course you don't, they are too deep for you to even rationalise the intricacies of such achievements that are also kept sekret from everyone except the close circle of planners!!!

No, chaos and necrons do need it more.

To be fair, and clear, I do agree with last user that non-Imperium factions are presented as pretty much harmless in the fluff.

I just think more of an effort should be made to present them as dangerous and not just a comical motley of bags for Marines to punch.

Eh Necron fluff-danger always seemed overblown to me. Other than the possession of some technology which just breaks the setting and means the Necron should never have lost anything (but for some reason said technology is never used in even a half-way decent manner) the Necrons are pretty pathetic in fluff.

The World Engine's their most successful gambit to date and it still go taken out at the cost of (really) just one Chapter which isn't much.

Other than that Imotehk's meant to be their greatest leader but has lost to both Helbrecht and Logan and the only other major conflict the Imperium has had with the Necron, Damnos, was an Imperium win.

With Chaos...I'd accept a fluff nerf of the Chaos Gods is necessary, but Chaos as a material faction are pretty harmless. Even when all the cards were in their favour (Horus Heresy) they still lost so badly that they weren't even able to keep control of a quarter of their territory and were all chased into a (by galactic standards) small area of space. Since then they've barely ever achieved any significant military achievements and usually only seem to collect artifacts which, we are assured, will one day let them win. Said artifacts don't ever seem to show up or get used for anything though.

I question Ynnead, because apparently in order to be born every eldar has to die, then the craftworld's infinity circuits have gotta unite, but if all the eldar are dead then who's gonna pilot the craftworlds? is there some sort of dead man's trigger in Eldrad's heart waiting for him to die before recalling all the craftworlds to one location? Or are they just hoping to have enough foresight to know when they're all fucked and put the things on autopilot then swallow a bullet?

And this is the problem. We're told that Chaos is a big threat, but when it comes to their actual physical forces, they're pathetic. I mean, they've been around for 10,000 years longer, but it feels like the Nids and Crons have had more successful major engagements than Chaos has had. Among the apocalyptic races, they feel pathetically weak by comparison.

All pretty pointless now anyway thanks to Captain Artemis and Eldard

Agreed, Chaos rarely feels like anything more than pirates. Orks, Necron and Tyranid all come across as if they require more military resources to combat.

Chaos often feels like it can, at most, raid the Imperium for an artifact before running away.

I've always questioned how the Horus Heresy turned out 'so' bad for Chaos. I mean, not that they lost, that's expected but...well...when you have an enormous empire of over a million world and almost a full HALF of it secedes you'd expect, even if they lost, for them to have retained control of some sort of power base instead of, apparently, all being chased into the Eye of Terror *shrugs*. Not sure how I'm meant to buy Abaddon is a bigger threat than Horus really either, his army can't even by a quarter of Horus' since Horus had half the Imperial Army and the Mechanicum on his side. Abaddon's Traitors can't replenish numbers as effectively as the Loyalists, I highly doubt GW will say that Space Marine Chapters turn renegade at such a rate that their are more renegade Marines than successor Chapters and Abaddon has a far smaller area within which to recruit mutants and cultits than Horus did with half the Imperial army.

Unless the Black Crusade is going to be 80% Daemons I just don't understand where Abaddon's manpower comes from.

Anyway that's just a long-winded way of saying I agree, Chaos could certainly stand to be buffed in the fluff a bit. Honestly every faction but the Imperium could. In fact, to be fair, every faction but the Loyalist Space Marines is probably more fair since it isn't like the Sisters have any major accomplishments to their name either.

every player is a fag, just to varying degrees. we all want our dudes to win.

Doesn't Eldrad get eaten by Slaanesh? Who is inexplicably hiding in a blackstone fortress.