Thinking back to the origins of D&D, how come dwarfs have come to be considered as opposed to magic as they have? Like...

>the dwarfs from The Hobbit didn't seem too physically intimidating
Because they were carpenteres, cooks, writers, kids and so on, so on. Only Thorin, Balin and Dwalin were warriors.

>striketheearth.jpg

because dnd has a huge divide between divine magic, where you ask a god to do magic, and arcane magic. where you steal the god's power and use it for your own ends.

dwarves are hugely into the cleric thing. not so big on the wizard side of things. ya dig?

Yeah, but this has no basis in mythology and folklore. Hell, it has no basis in Lord of the Rings, either! If anything, the dwarfs of LoTR were less into gods than any other race, and we DO know they did "magic" in the sense of casting spells and whatnot (just not Gimli, the aforementioned ur-dwarf).

In AD&D, dwarves had innate resistances to magic. In some cases, they had to make a check just to see if a magic item would even function for them, or just shut down and refuse to work.

Tolkien's dwarves were basically soulless meat puppets created by a godlike creature before even the elves existed. It's strange to see what they have become

Elf Propaganda. Dwarves would make great wizards. Long lifespans. +2 con for durability. Strong passive abilities. With the penalty of -2 con. Not many wizards need to be liked. Compared to the elf who is dexy but fragile. A dwarf would make overall a better wizard.

The Elves knew this and decided the best way to make the Dwarves hate magic. Was to make them think it was their own idea to dislike it.

You forgot Dain. And I'm not so sure about Balin.

Because elves are the magic race, and since people who write generic fantasy setting lack creativity by definition, the dwarves are the opposite of elves.

>Thinking back to the origins of D&D, how come dwarfs have come to be considered as opposed to magic as they have?

In the original version of D&D, Dwarf-race characters were forbidden from taking magic classes.

It's not just a matter of creativity, it's setting up different roles - in earlier editions of D&D and some fantasy games in general, your race would be tied into your role in the party.

>forbidden from taking magic classes
Dwarf WAS a class. So was Elf and Halfling. Halflings didn't have magic, either.

And elves had to decide if they wanted to stab shite or cast shite each morning.

It's most likely that the Dwarf race-as-class didn't have magical abilities, and that legacy persisted for quite some time.

I personally like the more magical kind of dwarf, if not the same sort of magical as elves. The magic of dwarves comes through their craft, with enchanted items and the like.

I want an elf against the wall.

Dain was mentioned for like two lines, wasn't he?

Yeah, but so was elf, and they got magic.

So was Lego Lass. He was supposed to a muscle-bound brick shithouse

That's every generic fantasy dwarf nowadays. What I want to see again is dwarfs with shapeshifting, divination, illusion and other sorts of "spectacular" magic that they're usually set to hate for some reason.

It's funny how Gimli turned into the mold from which all dwarfs are cast, but the stereotypical D&D elf is actually pretty damn far from Legolas (a non-magic using tough as nails warrior who is physically stronger than any of the humans, can outdrink Gimli and is generally a badass combat powerhouse. He's not even that snooty or arrogant.)

> Willowy, thin armed graceful archer stereotype

Also, the whole "dwarfs hate elves" thing that's supposedly because of Gimli and Legolas somehow ignores the fact that after about two chapters of bickering they literally become BFFs. They spend their days after the War of the Ring traveling the land together, with Legolas showing Gimli the beauty of forests and Gimli showing Legolas the beauty of caves.

I think Vulcans stole all of it and didn't leave any to their fantasy cousins

The elves weren't emotionless, though (far from it), which I would say is the vulcans' defining trait. And yeah, you could argue that the vulcans are just restraining their emotions or whatever, but the elves didn't do that, either. Most seemed to be pretty occupied with singing, dancing and playing music. And they weren't obsessed with "logic".

There's the Duregar for that in D&D. They're the sort that can change in size or go invisible if they like.

Wtih Dwarfs and other short-folk in folklore, the different kinds have been divided up among Dwarfs, Halflings, and Gnomes, the lines aren't that distinct. Gnomes were originally just earth elementals, but they were attributed with traits associated with dwarfs.

yes, caves, sure...

"Look, Gimli, on the beauty of my mighty oak. Let cover you in the soft petals that shower from its fruiting."

"Aye, a wondrous sight indeed. But there is a beauty I too wish to show. The earthy delights of a dark cave that seems at first mysterious but slowly opens up to accommodate yer vast wonder."

That sounds like me and my gf talking about our respective sexual organs before bed.

at least in 5e, there is no mention of magic hating, and one of the pre-gens is a dwarf cleric

I am certain that comes from Tolkien. The 7 rings didn't do what they were meant to. The dwarf lords resisted the magic and remained free but were still corrupted.

The dwarves did use magic in Tolkien. In The Hobbit the dwarves cast spells over the treasure they found in the troll cave.

that's it

i never knew

Vulcans stole their logic, that's why Elves are dumb

But ask yourself that: would they've been a wizard?

I dunno, but it's dumb as fuck and I actively ignore it.

If one species has magic and another does not, the one with magic is going to cause the magicless one to go extinct. There's no reason not to give dorfs magic of some sort. If magic is common enough that every other race can use it, then just give it to the short folk.

Maybe it'd be cool to have them suddenly lose magic. That would make for a fun campaign. Why the fuck can't the dorfs use magic anymore?

Isn't the explanation for that normally that they're also immune to magic?

>A dwarf would make overall a better wizard.

Both Elves and Eladrin have +2 Int as a stat option. Dwarves have great secondary stats for a wizard but lose out hard on the primary stat, while elves can get it.

>Insert joke about wood and dark depths here.

I think what he's trying to say more is that Dwarves would make better warmages, having better Con and all that. If you just want some guy to cast magic missile or fling some fireballs, better he's somewhat more durable and can handle himself.

On the other hand: Elves tend to be better at mixing swordplay and magic (It's kinda a racial thing for them and they can get Longswords as implements). I'd give the edge to the Elves.

Not that dwarves are bad, it's just they don't have any strengths that are specific to 'Being a mage'. The things that a mage would like as a dwarf are the things that are rather nice on any character.

>Both Elves and Eladrin have +2 Int as a stat option.
Pre-4e, neither one got a bonus or penalty to INT. In 3e, elves had wizard as their favored class, but that didn't matter because no full caster multiclassed.

In 4e, elves didn't have +2 INT as an option until errata, which also gave dwarves +2 WIS as an option. Elves could be better wizards, sure, but INT/DEX is a terrible stat spread on wizard. Dwarves could be terrifying invokers, since CON/WIS is a great stat spread for them.

5e... Fuck, I haven't looked at 5e since the playtest.

Sun Elves (The guys who became Eladrin) were +2 Int iirc. Elves: More subraces than you.

If we're counting sub-races, elves are better at literally everything, in 3e at the very least.

They have a subrace for everything.

>Dwarves could be terrifying invokers, since CON/WIS is a great stat spread for them.

Mind you, Invokers are divine rather than Arcane.

Hence the second sentence. God damn elves, so many subraces. Like Wild Elves for when you want a +2 Strength elf.

IIRC, in 3.5 they also got some tiny bonus to spell penetration (I think?). I remember someone actually brought up to the developers the issue that elves didn't make particularly good wizards and they added some tiny token bonus to facilitate that.

Right.

First, dwarves and elves were slightly separated in Germanic mythology. The elves used magic themselves, but the dwarves were just such superior craftsmen the things they MADE were magical. he contest that Loki inspired when he had cut Sif's hair of is the source of the elf-dwarf rivalry.

Loki went to the elves, and bet them that the dwarves could make better gifts for the Aesir than the elves, and then did the same to the dwarves saying the elves would make better gifts. He turned it into a contest and those who won would be remembered the best by the gods. The dwarves won (Odin's spear, Sif's golden hair, and Thors Hammer, Belt and glove, along with the impossibly beautiful necklace Brísingamen worn by Freya). Henceforth the elves faded in the sight of the gods and the dwarves received their blessings.

That's why the dwarves were respected and the elves less so by the Norse - the Celts had the opposite reaction, as the dwarves were greedy bastards who fooled and tricked people (Rumplestilkskin, among others), while the elves, although unpredictable, were magical and capricious, but better remembered.

sounds pretty gay LUL

5e has High elves getting +1 Int and an extra Wizard cantrip. It also has Mountain Dwarves getting medium armor proficiency and being able to cast in it, so Dwarves make great wizards despite not being able to start with 16 Int.

>Mind you, Invokers are divine rather than Arcane.
I know. But OP said
>considered as opposed to magic
Not a specific type.

>dwarves were just such superior craftsmen the things they MADE were magical.
Fafnir and his family of shapeshifters would disagree with you on that.

I like this best
>dwarf wants to shapeshift?
>craft a belt/helmet/whatnot that when worn changes the dwarf into the creature it wants
>elf wants to shapeshift?
>find the specific creature it wants to become, lives with the creature, bonds with the creature, then from that day forward it can become a clone of that creature whenever it wants
>human wants to shapeshift?
>become apprentice to wizard
>learn the proper spell
>cast spell whenever it wants to shapeshift

There's no reason why any race can't perform amazing magical feats while still staying "true" to the common themes of their race.

But those aren't the "common themes of their race", they were established by a freaking roleplaying game in the 60's. Veeky Forumss always so fucking anal about things being true to their mythological or folkloric source (I dare you to go fight that autists claiming the dragons in ASoIaF must be called "wyverns"), EXCEPT WITH DWARFS. The source of dwarfs is the fucking Red Box. Not Norse mythology, not Grimm's Fairy Tales, not any of the stories which preceded it. Not even Tolkien. Gary Gygax. He determined what is a dwarf, and every dwarf thereafter has been judged by relation. What the hell gives?

My first instinct was to say something about dwarfs being solid, down to earth, stable and all that but thinking about that now that's also a pretty late invention. Dwarfs were originally dickass scoundrels, tricksters, cowards and sneaky rapists.

tl;dr: gnomes are actually what you want if you're looking to depict "traditional" dwarfs, in the mythological or folkloric sense. "Dwarfs", in D&D, are pretty much just an entire race of Gimlis.

This, Dwarves have and do cast magic all the time. Even in D&D. Just read the books with Bruenor as king when the drow attack his castle. All of the clerics are casting magic to create the best mead. They literally conjure that shit up out of thin air.

And then they invite the Harpels to come join them when their home is being invaded, they have no problem with human wizards casting magic left and right. Hell, one of the dwarves is written as even chasing one of the human wizards around after all is done and over, begging the wizard to bite him. Because he saw the wizard use a spell to turn themself into a werewolf and totally fucking WRECKED the most powerful drow warrior in the invading army.

People forget that when you sit down to roleplay each character type is a stereotype. Created solely to fulfill a specific purpose in your group.

It's just like playing chess. You might as well be asking why every pawn isn't a king.

Dwarfs of Norse mythology did make magic items though, for the gods no less. That was their thing.

But it wasn't *EXCLUSIVELY* their thing, like some settings would like to say. And yes, divine magic is a kind of magic but if you're going to be D&Ding this whole thing up, you also have to consider that divine magic is clearly different and clearly isn't what dwarfs generally did in folklore. Dwarfs didn't heal, bless or smite anything. They made illusions, cursed and turned people into animals.

You forget, the dwarves in D&D worship an entire pantheon. I am sure a cleric who worships the right dwarven god can create illusions, curse people, and turn people into animals. As long as the god they worship deems it all justifiable.

And before you say DUHVINE MAHJEEK IS DIFFRENT FRUM NORMAL MAHJEEK!!! Remember, this is fucking fantasy we are talking about. Does it really matter if the source of that power is some random ingredients thrown together in some gibberish, or a prayer thrown together in gibberish? No, it doesn't.

A rose by any other name still smells just as sweet. A spell cast by a cleric is just as effective and powerful as a spell cast by a wizard.

>They made illusions, cursed and turned people into animals.

Where the hell did you get that?

They're murderous lecherous hairy men magically skilled in their craft by the accounts of the Norse.

>And before you say DUHVINE MAHJEEK IS DIFFRENT FRUM NORMAL MAHJEEK!!! Remember, this is fucking fantasy we are talking about. Does it really matter if the source of that power is some random ingredients thrown together in some gibberish, or a prayer thrown together in gibberish? No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Literally different sets of rules. This isn't just flavor. You want to give justifications for things using D&D rules, you can't stop where it suits your arguments.

Yes, and? Tell me user, is it against the law where you live for a roleplayer to roleplay as a dwarf cleric who can cast illusions, curse people, and turn people into animals?

You want dwarf characters who can do all that, and D&D gives you the options to do that, and you fucking bitch about it over a god damn technicality of the rules of the game?

You might as well be bitching over pawns in a game of chess not being able to perform all of the moves that a knight can. Despite the fact that you already have fucking knights.

>Yes, it does. Literally different sets of rules. This isn't just flavor. You want to give justifications for things using D&D rules, you can't stop where it suits your arguments.

To be fair, that depends on the edition of D&D. In 5e for example, there is no difference. Magic is magic.

I... never thought about it this way. Wow.

I dont remember that at all. Didn't they just bury it?

At most gandalf mumbled some gibberish to make them think he cast a spell so they'd chill out about leaving sweet loot behind.

There's lots of purely dwarven magic in Tolkein's universe. In the Hobbit the map they follow is magical, it only reveals itself in moonlight. The secret entrance to the mountain can only be revealed by moonlight. There is a scene where they are all singing, and their eyes glow.

And then in Lord of the Rings, there is a second entrance, guarded by magic, the well known, "Speak [in elvish] friend, and enter." scene. Most people get confused by this, and think the magic was cast by elves, because you have to speak an elvish word to enter. But really, that's no different than someone born and living in the U.S. saying "hola" to someone who was born in Mexico.

That's all crafting magic items, though.

Then again, I don't think anyone in Middle Earth uses much of any other kind of magic besides wizards like Gandalf.

Sure you do. You have all the far-sight and the mind-reading and the magical "daunting" of people that happens relatively frequently.

Go re-read the conversation between Pippin and Denethor really, really closely, and you'll find that Denethor comes away with far more information than not only Pippin said, but could reasonably be extrapolated from what Pippin said. You've got the impossible ride of the Rohirrim down to Gondor, where they average about 80 miles a day. You have the Elvish healing that Glorfindel does to Frodo, just touching his wounds makes them hurt less. Aragorn can quite literally hear Orcs marching dozens of miles away by putting his ear on the ground.

It's just usually framed quite subtly, but it's there.

In the context of Middle Earth, though, very little of that is explicitly "magic". A lot of it is essentially people in that setting being capable of being, essentially, "supernaturally talented" at things. Denethor's mind reading, for example, is just really, really, REALLY good people's skills.

>Dwarf WAS a class. So was Elf and Halfling. Halflings didn't have magic, either.
No they weren't, nigger. Race as class is a Moldvay invention.

Dwarves and halflings/hobbits only had one class available to them, but they weren't classes in their own right.

>The source of dwarfs is the fucking Red Box.
Do you mean the White Box? Because the Red Box is about 17 years later.

Fun fact, the arcane/divine divide is from the earliest version of DnD, playtest scenario that formed the basis for the classes which was basically a squad of good adventurers vs a squad of evil ones.

Someone powergamed so hard they broke the game. The guy playing Sir Fang, a vampire knight in heavy armor, was simultaneously very powerful and felt justifiably powerful. Apparently Dave Arneson liked Christopher Lee's Dracula, so rather than make Christopher Lee weaker, they added Peter Cushing. A character who was perfectly suited to fight a sword wielding vampire in heavy armor without being universally powerful; a character with supernatural powers that apply specifically to the undead, heavy armor that is more effective against bladed weapons (because that's how old DnD did armor), and mace because blunt weapons are more effective against heavy armor. The healing and cure disease was added later.

So that divide in magic is pure DnD. You can find other stuff that fits the pattern, but DnD established it.

Additional fun fact: JRPGs have Black Mages and White Mages because a DnD nerd decided to move to Japan after he met a Japanese girl while studying programming at university, and knowing DnD and programming he made a stripped down version of DnD into a computer game. It was called The Black Onyx. All subsequent JRPGs are based on it. The slime monsters in Dragon Quest are figuratively descended from the Gelatinous Cube.

Praises be to Arneson. Additional praises to Henk Rogers are appropriate if you or someone you love is playing Final Fantasy 15 this weekend.

I heard that the "Black Mage" and "White Mage" division was created for the Japanese because the developer thought the audience, which would likely be unfamiliar with the Christian concept of a monster slaying priest, wouldn't get the cleric.

Which is really silly when you think about it because if you just make it female, switch the armor for white and red robes and the mace for a bow you get a figure literally from Japanese culture. Mikos WOULD fight demons in Japanese folklore (it's one of those things that were not, in fact, invented by anime).

>Denethor's mind reading, for example, is just really, really, REALLY good people's skills.

Not really. Here's the line from RoTK

>He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those who dwell far off.

And yes, a lot of that magic is innate, and supernaturally good at things that they otherwise do. That doesn't make it not magical; nobody, no matter how good at hearing they are, can hear a horn call from hundreds of miles off, yet Faramir manages to hear the horn blowing of Boromir. You have the prophecies and the like. There is magic.

Ironically, much of the magic of LotR is actually rather reminiscent of, most of anything, Excellencies from Exalted. Stuff anyone could do, but a particular person does INCREDIBLY well.

In other words... Weaboo Fightan' Magic.

Let's say a combination of gnomes and halflings since dwarfes were also pretty stealthy.

>Hell, one of the dwarves is written as even chasing one of the human wizards around after all is done and over, begging the wizard to bite him. Because he saw the wizard use a spell to turn themself into a werewolf and totally fucking WRECKED the most powerful drow warrior in the invading army.

That Harpell didn't use a spell, he was a legit werewolf. Also, the dwarf in question is regarded by literally everyone as a blood-crazed maniac - after being denied the opportunity to be a werewolf, he returned to his traditional battle style of "wearing a suit of armour with a ton of spikes on it, and literally tackling and writhing on top of every enemy until they are slowly shredded to death."

It follows from the British system of fantasy. LotR was unique in it's day about how the world was made and set up. It was an entirely created world that was not our world and could not be reached from our world. you can say it was 6000 years in the past, but really it's entirely separate That set it apart from the fantasy genre, where the magic was usually just a cupboard door, mirror, or dark passageway away, where people fell into fantastic worlds more or less by accident. Magic there was more along the lines of the extraordinary rather than supernatural.

It's not all that different from Conan's Hyborian Age, to be honest.

I think Tolkien had ditched the idea that Middle Earth was our earth by the time he published LOTR.

Yes, but imagine you're a japanese westaboo making a game based on your beloved western hobby. If you have to sell, would you rather have a classic with a different name or completely reshape it?

It's like making a samurai fantasy game for a western audience and dress warrior monks like templars. You want your weaboo shit, not templars.