Traveller General

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So, how does it feel to know that an artificial inteligence is better at your game than you?

See EURISKO

Same way that computers are best at chess user. Does not bother me at all.

Trillion Credit Squadron is pretty much a number crunch anyway. I'd love to see those games played out in an animation so something, it'd be fun to watch.

Interesting.
AFAIK, it's the only ttrpg that someone programmed a computer to play, so I got rather curious about the player community thinks about.
Playing chess is nice, but I only got really impressed when I saw that AI who playes nethack.

Also, yeah, animations of the battles would be amazing

Slingshot manouevre off page 10!

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The AI that plays nethack and other games like that sometimes make me feel incompetent. I made it to the zoo a few times, and the bottom of the mines a few times.

IIRC that AI can get to the castle in most it's games. I never got to the castle

Now I am going to be tempted to play nethack...

Frankly I'm amazed that anyone is capable of completing a game of Nethack at all. I flipped on Wizard Mode once in "Slash 'Em!" so I could go see what the endgame was like, and it's BONKERS. Getting the Amulet is child's play compared to how difficult it is to get the Amulet to its destination. Meanwhile, I consider it a "pretty good run" when I can even get my hands on something cool like Snickersnee or Thiefbane.

They say that the Ascension Run (aka everything after you get the amulet) is the most boring part of the game

My most successful run was a Wizard who completed the quest (he died gangbanged by Dragons on dungeon level 19)
If I'm playing Knight or a Samurai I can reliably get to Dungeon Level 10, get the luckstone at Mine's End and similar things

Complete? People speedruns in nethack! It's ridiculous

I think the furthest I've gotten was with a drow barbarian- the combination of being able to 'zerk as well as drow having a chance on hit to put enemies to sleep made for a really strong early game. Unfortunately, it's hard to maintain that advantage, since being dumb as bricks makes it difficult to use magic effectively. Your artifact weapon's are kinda lacking, too, and one of them has the drawback of circumventing the "Are you sure you want to attack this friendly NPC?" dialogue, if I recall.

Dopplegangers are pretty cool, too. If I recall, their Liquid Leap is the only ability that lets you travel through walls in Sokoban.

that would be Stormbringer (I play vanilla nethack, dunno if there's something different in slash'em) I think, really bad to use close to peacefuls

Yeah, that's the one! It's a shame, 'cause it's a great weapon, otherwise.

Who was that guy who ascended like 23 out of 25 characters in the annual competition one year? That guy's ridiculously good.

There's a guy on nethack.alt.org who ascended 29 characters in a row (no deaths between ascencions). All while doing all sorts of ludicrous conduits.

Nethack top players are insane

Bump

Bump

Trillion Credit Squadron is like a competitive aspect of Traveller, where players build starfleets according to a set budget then sic them on each other. It's not suprising that an AI should dominate it, seeing as it would determine a perfectly optimized "build". IIRC it was all about massive Battle Tenders as opposed to starships, and could deal out a truly Macross-sized barrage of missiles that would elimnate enemy fleets in one turn.

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Huh. I wonder if such an approach would necessarily be good for an actual protracted conflict, though, or if it's just an instance of an AI being good at gaming one particular system. It occurs to me that a force composition good for winning a battle might not necessarily be the best for winning a war.

Then again, that AI was years ago, so there's probably heuristics out there now that could totally determine the best fleet comp to have in order to remain on a viable war-footing. Heck, maybe that's secretly how we determine the armed services budget now.

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great image BTW.

How does everyone handle computer stuff since Traveller predates the computers everywhere part.

>I play that the governments are wary of computer systems due to hacking and so on, so many forms are still paper, and there some Newt filing away paperwork after it is scanned in.

Yeah, that's kinda how I handle it. Take one part "Vilani distrust of automation", one part "every planet out there invented its own standards in the Long Night", and add in a touch of zeerust for the fun of it.

Players that land on a decent tech level planet may get inundated with "special offers" for comms devices that only work in this one system, and may be tapped by the local authorities/secret police/corporations/crime syndicates.

Carefully ignore it, even in the Third Imperium setting. Even the mechanics, when they do touch upon it, are woefully out of date the instant it's published. For instance, even in 1e Mongoose, which wasn't all that long ago, a 5 GHz computer is TL11 tech; a 1TB memory stick is apparently TL10 tech.

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>weigh

OH NO, MUH AUTISM!

It seems that Mongoose at least has learned some of its lessons. In 2e giant mainframes stop at TL7 and there's no mention anywhere of non-portable computers smaller than those installed on a ship.

Conversely, it's clear they know their audience. Why else does the Central Supply Catalogue have an "alien cosplay kit"? (also, 350 credits for that? Ridiculous)

>Imperial measurements survive well past TL13

Nah, I'm comically angry that displacement tons are being treated as a unit of weight, when it's a measurement of the space it takes to install in your ship. An empty room might be 10 dTons, but it doesn't weigh anything remotely like 10 tons.

How many travel codes do you guys have in your games, or how often do they even get enforced/used? In MgT's universe creation you're apparently supposed to give an Amber code to any planet at Atmosphere 10+, Government 0/7/10, or Law 0/9+ (that "or" being strangely changed to an "and" in 2e).

Makes sense given the meaning behind those specific numbers, but as I'm rolling up a universe I'm noticing that like HALF the planets in any given subsector are getting slapped with an Amber code for one reason or another. Looking at the online Traveller map, there are far fewer Amber/Red zones compared to what I've been rolling up.

It is a unit of volume based on a known mass of hydrogen at a particular temperature and pressure, but yes.

On the other hand, building material masses can add up quickly. Traveller ships are assumed to mass around 8-12 metric tons per displacement ton unless you have a lot of drives and armor (higher mass) or are all cargo (lower). Note that *water* would be 14 metric tons per displacement ton, and solid steel more than that.

Amber Zones are not "enforced" as such in the default setting. They are warnings about somewhat dangerous worlds, but are not a government rating.

Red Zones, on the other hand, ARE government enforced. They are only assigned to systems or worlds that should not be visited.

bumping

So the Infinity tabletop's RPG is coming along nicely (if very slowly) and backers got a new version of their Lifepath system. I'm not a huge fan of Mophidius' 2d20 system, but as the rest of the system is basically Mongoose Traveller with some funky setting modifications, I'll get started on converting the rest to be in line with 2e Mongoose. Hopefully it'll be interesting to some anons.

So what's the consensus on Mongoose 2e?

I don't know about a consensus, but I'm not really impressed. It seems to have a few good ideas, and lots of poorly thought out ones. Mongoose has a thing for changing stuff for no good reason, and then not doing the editing and testing needed to make it good.
We had some dissection of the ship building rules in High Guard about two months back.

Personally, I'm over in the Classic camp now, Mongoose needs to step it up if they want to win me back. Unfortunately, Mongoose Publishing doesn't "step it up" ever. If MGP were a guy, he'd be the sort to show up in faded blue jeans, a t-shirt with a dirty slogan, and a backwards baseball cap, and if you try to turn his cap around, you find it's still on backwards. Mongoose does not seem to give a shit, no matter what.

>and if you try to turn his cap around, you find it's still on backwards.

>Hopefully it'll be interesting to some anons.
Absolutely

I'm intrigued by Infinity, although I've only skimmed the main book. I do like visiting the general to look at the pretty models. The Ariadna faction in particular really appeals to me because I love their used-future look. They'd make great Solomani stand-ins. Certainly I will be checking out the RPG when it's released.

I wonder what goes into writing a good splatbook for Traveller.

It's got its ups and downs, like most systems.
Good stuff:
- Cleared up little, but necessary things from 1e, such as swapping assignments, getting rid of homeworld skills, broader and more appropriate background skills.
- much better extrapolation of computers by making their mechanics completely distinct from real-world values.
- a few little mechanics from little-read books (Races 3:Darrians, for instance) make their way into 2e HG, which is... nice, I suppose.

Bad stuff:
- it's not exactly the most well edited books in the world
- In an effort to condense material from disparate books, it's very clear if you've looked at both 1e and 2e that some paragraphs were cut out to make room, especially in High Guard. Now that's problematic because some of those sentences were really quite important distinctions (example: fuel consumption for fission reactors, which was addressed in 1e core, was removed, which is a fairly important oversight.) Now, it's not too much of a hassle to go back and realize where these
- Personally, my biggest complaint, is the arbitrary restrictions in ship-building. The authors seemed to have difficulty trying to make HG, and 2e in general, broad enough to be used as a generic sci-fi toolbox (look, they have trashcan astromech droids and protocol droids that know 6 million languages, explicit mentions of planet-destroying super-lasers, etc etc), but at the same time, still constrain themselves to silly things like:
- Why is there a minimum jump drive size? Or, why is it not TL based?
- Why is there a minimum ship size? Or, why is it not TL based?
- Why is there a minimum powerplant fuel usage requirement? Or, why is it not TL based?
- Ship based fuel refineries are still too cost and size efficient.
- Ship power is not well integrated into the rest of the mechanics; surely there should be some mechanics that allows bleeding off of excess power to weaponry or somesuch

So pretty typical for Mongoose in general, then.

there a reason why I don't care for mongoose, and says why....

>Mongoose needs to step it up if they want to win me back. Unfortunately, Mongoose Publishing doesn't "step it up" ever.
It HAS happened, but only a few isolated times in 20 years of products. Part of the problem is that Sprange's grasp of what quality work means is approaching the Whitman end of the scale.

I should note that 2e, despite all that stuff I wrote in is still my favorite system of the moment; it's got a solid, simple-to-use basic set of mechanics, without some of the wonkiness of 1970s zeerust in Classic, and, if you ignore some obvious mistakes or substitute from other lines, a fairly workable system for everything else.

For instance, building a 5dton space fighter in 2e HG is actually fairly doable; just ignore the line that says 10 dton minimum (or imagine that, say, at TL9 10 dtons really is a minimum, but miniaturization over time allows for higher TL to get tiny fighters). Add the following:
- 2dton cockpit (though 2e HG helpfully allows drones as well, so that option saves even more space
- 0.5 dton gravitic drive for a nice, solid 10g thrust
- 0.3125 dton of armor (5 points of armor)
- 0 dton fixed mount pulse laser
- 1 dton TL12 fusion plant will provide more than enough power (only need 0.5 dton, but whatever, lets be generous)
- 0.25 dton aerofins, because style.
- and now you have 0.9375 dton of fuel, which is enough (if you abide by the 1 dton minimum requirement, which is silly) for a full month's worth of operation.

Will have to check it out sometime, and bump

I was under the impression that fixed mounts were 1 dton.

No, fixed mounts take up no tonnage.

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That's stupid. They should take up SOME volume.

No. Remember, ship dtons only accounts for the *internal* volume that could otherwise be encased by the ship's hull. That's why even massive wings only take up 5% of the ship's tonnage; the tonnage only accounts for internal bracing and not for the volume displaced by the lifting bodies themselves.

Also, they do take up 'space' in that ships are limited to a certain number of hardpoints or firmpoints by the size of the ship. It's just that very small craft may choose to not mount turrets, which require more machinery, and instead install a fixed mount, which takes up space, but not the internal volume where a cockpit or fuel or sensors may go.

Well I finally shilled out money for InDesign and now I am working on a Mongoose 2e hack of Fallout. Any ideas of what I should add or consider while writing it?

But does the AI have more fun?

Is that the rationale they are using? Its still stupid.

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Gotta love the potato there giving zero fucks
>goddamn Terrans, I just wanna finish my drink

I bet it's a lot like being the only human in a Vargr bar.

Say, remind me again what the potato-races official name is? I've been used to the potato moniker for so long I've actually forgotten.

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Haha, there we go. Thanks, user.

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The Denaar are the only race unique to T4 that got art outside the aliens chapter.

It's the rationale they've always been using, because, by definition, displacement tonnage references the internal volume of a ship, which allows for wiggle room for more imaginative designs that would otherwise be too constrained by more 'accurate' counting systems.

It's the same reason ship computers don't take up tonnage or why you don't have to worry about how all the plumbing or wiring works on the ship; it's part and parcel of the hull itself.

That looks very interesting. Consider me intrigued.

That is a most curious design. Am I just blind, or does that ship have no exits besides the cargo doors? Providing the crew with private quarters, but giving passengers only a bunk (along the only hallway to the passenger toilets!) does not seem like it would make for a very comfortable passage. 42 staterooms for crew also seems like a lot. It is nonetheless nice to see a more interesting hull shape than the usual Traveller cones or pyramids.

Maybe extra crew rooms are used for normal passage with the bunks being slightly-above-low passage

Interesting ship.
Looks like more of a short run hopper due to the lack of anything to do aboard. Although it could possibly hold a small fighting force in luxury.
I think I would gut the bunks on the left and make a bigger galley/ rec area and maybe replace one of the turrets with an observation dome.
Also, It's got 5 turrets that I can see what the hell is it going to be carrying that needs that much firepower?

- do you have any sort of flavour text for this?

Jump

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Interesting question.
Would an AI ever be able to feel fun?

I think it'd have to have some pleasure/pain analogues to really be an AI. An AI would need some self-motivating factors to drive it or else it's just going to be a paperweight that sits there and does nothing.

Just something I picked up on the interwebs. An interesting ship, if not the most... efficient usage of space, I suppose.

Minimum of 5 double turrets, but possibly with symmetrical underside for 3 more turrets means that the ship is 500 to 800 dtons, which makes a ~20 dton bridge look... somewhat in proportion? 42 staterooms, probably double bunked for silly mercenary hovertank action. Could be fun.

I'm just bored waiting for the 2e vehicle handbook to come out. It's been in layout prep for how long now?

It's an interesting design.
I would have gone for more of a symmetrical "flying V" look like a Nazi prototype or this Hydra plane.

those are some loooooong cars.

I honestly don't know why people go asymmetrical even if they are still airworthy.
- like this atomic powered pig.
did they really need to do design it like this?

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What do people think of the starship combat rules in Traveller? I am mostly familiar with Mongoose 1st edition ones, and found them to produce interesting and unpredictable battles when used with ships of ~200 d-tons, but very slow and a bit boring when applied to 1000 d-ton ships blasting away at each other. Do the other versions of the game have any good ideas worth stealing? Are there any good ideas on how to handle larger ships without boring everybody with twelve turrets firing individually?

Barrage combat rules from 1e High Guard, or capital ship combat rules from 2e High Guard. Both can work with any size of ship.

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Has anyone had any experience with those? I've read them and they seem a bit...wonky.

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Better bump.

Here a question - what was the funniest moment you did in Traveller?