Why aren't "aliens" rarely used in more high fantasy settings?

D&D has inter dimensional things like demons and celestial, but also have inter dimensional things from the far realm (basicaly Lovecraft aliens) and even a lot of creatures that "comes from space" or "beyond the stars" like the Neogi, Psurlons or the Hulks of Zoretha.

Why aren't angels, demons, modrons, archons, guardinals, yugoloths, etc. considered "aliens"?

If anything, they're not even extraterrestrial, they're extraDIMENSIONAL.

They are; they're usually called Fae, Fair Folk, etc instead of "aliens".

(Seriously though, people can and have made pretty solid cases that alien abduction / UFO stuff is the modern form of faerie folklore, with many similar elements. And among the fringe crowd, you'll find plenty of people claiming that the Fae are actually mythologized alien encounters, or occasionally that modern alien encounters are, in fact, the Fae)

Because they're still thematically linked to the tiny self-centered fantasy world that thinks it's shit matters. Demons as manifestations of mortal sins implies that mortal (human) sins actually matter.

Also, one wonders why the true form of succubi are hot demonic humans, and not hot demonic birdsquids with their lucious phalanges and sporols laid bare. Does every planet have its own demons?

I say this as someone who LIKES alien monsters and barrier peaks and such, but it is true that mixing sci-fi with fantasy does have pitfalls.

Fantasy world's sometimes feel realer than the real world. They operate how people think a world should operate; there's an afterlife, personal gods, the things people do matter. Destiny, oaths, whatever. Sci-fi kinda queers that up a bit sometimes.

>Also, one wonders why the true form of succubi are hot demonic humans, and not hot demonic birdsquids with their lucious phalanges and sporols laid bare. Does every planet have its own demons?

There isn't really anything that suggests that that has to be the case. It could just as easily be the case that their true form is incomprehensible to mortals and the humanoid form they take is simply an idealized form that mortals can comprehend that they wear as a 'mask'.

much like how there is a hypothesis among the Mass Effect fan base that the Asari are actually super alien-looking creatures that, because of their innate talent with biotics, are able to veil themselves with a humanoid form that accentuates certain physical characteristics that each race finds attractive. Allowing them to enter into a willing mind-meld, and thus being able to mate, rather than committing literal mind-rape.

Depends on the edition, in OD&D astral travel was literally across the vacuum of space.

In later editions, planar travel is still the closest parallel to planetary travel (Spelljamming notwithstanding).

In Pathfinder's Golarion setting, the world is actually part of a solar system, with it's own Not!Mars and a civilization of fire elementals living in the sun and everything.

Also, apparently Elves are aliens in Pathfinder in the 'default' setting of Golarion.

Warcraft has Demons from space and other planets, a Invasion from another planet (Orcs), refugees from another planet (Draenei), and another spacegod race (Naaru? it was), and the obligatory space eldritch god infestation.

A Princess of Mars/John Carter/Barsoom obviously has martians.

D&D has a crashed alien ship adventure module and other planets (prime material planes)

Midkemia Saga has an invasion from another planet.

Wizardry has plenty of aliens and space travel.

Darkover, Tekumel and Skyrealms of Jorune are on an alien planet.

Magic and splitting of the local sophonts was started by a spaceship wreck in Talislanta, there also are additional visitor species.

>Because they're still thematically linked to the tiny self-centered fantasy world that thinks it's shit matters.

Bitch, the Nine Hells/The Abyss/The Gray Waste/Mount Celestial link to AAAAAAAALL the worlds, not just one little world.

>this fucking retarded theory again
The fact that pictures of asari exist prove your shit wrong, faggot.

Cause then you get shit like this.

>Implying I'm one of those people.
I didn't say I believed it, only that some people do.

Depends on what game are you playing, really. D&D has fuckload of them, regardless of setting. So does Might and Magic setting.

>Using a Zelda picture to ask why there aren't aliens in fantasy

It's kinda cool if you take that the Asari's only racial trait is literally being alien space babes.
They aren't even properly advanced or wise in their own terms, they're just A. long-lived and B. attractive to everybody (not even mind-control), so the Protheans made them a waifu-race
Hell, even their biotic aptitude might be the result of Prothean meddling, possibly unintentionally.

The biotics were intentional. They were intended to be the race to lead the next cycle against the Reapers, so they lived really long, were good with biotics, sexy, and found all the important shit first.

I was actually looking for images of that quest when it the question came to me

and promptly horded all of that for themselves and while publicly putting a ban on other races doing so once they got into a position of authority in the galaxy

>the Hulks of Zoretha
Someone else likes the Hulks of Zoretha? Pic related.

They're used plenty, they just don't outright get called "aliens," instead usually referred to in fantasy terms from the perspective of characters in a fantasy world because the authors think they're clever.

>D&D has plenty.
This

Telepathic Plant Hivemind

>Why aren't "aliens" rarely used
>aren't rarely

So they're common?

Tail of the Comet was the 2nd edition version which my campaign ended up taking too far and getting into an alliance with the crashed aliens and trading with them especially because we were already using Spelljammer stuff which is ANOTHER Sci-Fi/Fantasy mixture

they are

they're just called eldritch horrors, planar beings, etc

The laser pistol in that module doesn't actually look like that, it's instead shaped more like something that can make you accidentally kill yourself.

Everyone has known that since 1980.

The implication might be that there's a complete lack of aliens in most fantasy settings, and it would be an improvement if more of them used aliens rarely rather than not at all.

>tfw planning to run barrier peaks soon
I can't fucking wait

>run a barrier peaks like scenario
>players begin autistic hooting about "NOT MUH FANTASY"

The worst part was when I told them a squad commander of corrupted angels had a gun that looked far more advanced than any musket.

>it was basically just a percussion cap rifle

Sorry mah negro, I don't really like them much, but I remember them being aliens. I didn't really loved any of the Elder Evils.

Anything from a different plane or what have you would basically be an alien

I assume it's because Aliens imply science-fiction implies introduction of technology above swords'n'shit, and that upsets the idea of playing in a setting with medieval technology level if you got invaders from outer space shooting up your infantry blocks of tripple amputee pitchfork shitpeasants with disintegrator railguns.

This however requires that we're talking "spaceship" aliens instead of "wormhole portal" aliens, and even then there's some leeway which can go either way. "Magically" powered space ships have been a thing in WoW, but the Draenei never went above beating and slashing people up with crystalline weapons, occasionally shooting with arrows and smiting with holy light. That still was upsetting to the community but far from Necrons landing on Westeros.

Of course, most players will prefer a rule-of-cool, spur of the moment fun instead of highly detailed and consistent lore fun, so the point is pretty much rendered moot and boils to the good old Veeky Forums saying
>IT DEPENDS ON THE SETTING.

They're constantly in use. They're just called demons and angels because what else would medieval people call aliens?

user, a clue for the future.
If your players don't enjoy BP or complain it's not a fantasy, there are roughtly three option
- you are running it wrong and too obviously describe it all as sci-fi
- they are bunch of idiots
- you should switch it into full fantasy scenario this instant if they seriously don't enjoy it, but not because they are morons or your shit GMing

What are you talking about, modern fantasy tries to squeeze Lovecraftian "Alians Horror" into everything.

It's not that uncommon, in the old might and magic universe, demons were alien.

practically always interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial, so while technical aliens, not really what is taked about here

In old might and magic half the game happened inside ancient space ships, laboratories and whatnot while fighting robots and cyborgs. 3-5 were almost exclusively so.

Because people will screech in confusion when something other than a dragon appears before them during a fantasy campaign and say that old days were better because they kept the genres separate, despite the following:

They're usually called "Demons" or the like.

Sci-fi is a fantasy sub-genre.

Autists really ruined the speculative fiction genre

Nigga, it's literally about "hey, what if impossible shit was real?"

... in English literature theory.
Pretty much everyone else has it as fantasTIC literature, further divided into science fiction and fantasy as two completely different things.
Rings you a bell why so many people are left confused?

>old days ... kept the genres separate
Yeah, that's a very interesting statement usually when back in 1974 it was all weird fiction

That's for fantasy.
Science fiction is about "what would be the implications of this shit being real".
And it's like this since times of Wells, thus ever since, so go fuck yourself. Hell, if we account Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus as sci-fi, then it's even older by another century.

>Not getting the irony
Ebin

You're just autistic user.

Nothing wrong with disliking things for no reason. Just don't be autistic about it, accept you're making no sense and just avoid it without trying to convince or explain it to people.

I get the irony and agree with the post quoted. Just elaborated a bit

What would you paint Barsoom stuff as? Fantasy of sci-fi? Because it fits squarely into "what if it was real" category

>Science fiction is about "what would be the implications of this shit being real"

Soft-Sci Fi

And how are aliens exclusive to the second category?

>knight in a dress

Fucking SJW shit corrupting RPGs!

Yes. Fantasy in a setting normally used in SF.

Well, is it wrong for a fantasy story like that to use massive six-limbed green aliens?

Not really. I like the "aliens tech as described from a medieval character's standpoint" theme from time to time.

>>Because people will screech in confusion when something other than a dragon appears before them during a fantasy campaign and say that old days were better because they kept the genres separate
When I was a kid, I read a really badass late 80s/early 90s comic about a spaceship crash-landing in a medieval town.

It's a prison ship full of human criminals from another planet, who try to convince the villagers to slay the 'dragon in the silver castle', who is really a reptilian prison warden. The laser pistols and crashed space ship contrasted really well with torches and pitchforks.

Forgotten Realms has Not!Martians in the form of all the new player races added in 4th ed. They're all technically ayys.

The funny thing about Warcraft is that in spite of being a galaxy far, far away with things like spaceships and intergalactic empires, Azeroth is still the most important place in the universe by virtue of the fact that the setting's goddess, as in creator of the universe decided that it was her favorite place.

>Also, one wonders why the true form of succubi are hot demonic humans, and not hot demonic birdsquids with their lucious phalanges and sporols laid bare
Because your setting is shit

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't consider Frankenstein sci-fi. It explores the ramifications of the ability to reverse death through scientific means. Just because the scientific means in the book were handwaved doesn't mean it wasn't a concept inspired by the advancing pace of science and medicine in Shelley's time.

Barsoom is just pulp adventure fiction that's a thinly veiled criticism of Native Americans.

>inb4 it's not

Dejah Thoris' speech to the green Martians when she is first captured.

The only part where Burroughs investigates the possibilities of a scientifically quantifiable concept is how John Carter exceeds the strength and agility of anyone on Mars because of its lower gravity.

>Why would anyone consider this book about the implications of fictional science science fiction

>swords'n'shit
What if the crashed ayy lmao ship had SCIENCE versions of this?

Technically, it would be a compromise, but I feel it would be a very unsatisfactory one, because I believe it would lead to either of 2 scenarios:

>Introduce a technologically highly advanced alien race that can build spacefaring craft, but still just uses some form of metal swords to hack and slash at eachother, somewhat contradicting the point of introducing advanced high-tech in the first place

or

>Alien race uses weapons made from Iwinnium with a magically conductive super edge that's been starwelded to the body, allowing them to essentially lightsaber through any and all other materials with ease, thus rendering the point of a historically accurate medieval environment moot

On top of that, the question comes up of how wiedespread this technology is.

One ship crashing and a minor circle of people get ahold of the xenotech? They bully their way to the top and will not be challenged unless MIRACLE happens.

Several ships crash and the technology spreads to every corner? You can essentially throw the medieval environment out of the window except for some visual aesthetics, but there will be no need for a farm-based economy, therefore no need for a feudal system, therefore no need for a nobility that administrates the land and utilises the wealth to focus on combat training. Thanks to being able to mass-produce basically every kind of weapon, you just make tons of hyper-efficient crossbows where you pull a trigger and a person with the minimum brain capacity can pull a trigger and this thing flings electrical charges in a vaguely bolt-shaped projectile, so swords become useless.

Draenei are an example of making tons of mental gymnastics to justify aliens or sci-fi in fantasy, but generally still sticking out like a sore thumb and the question remaining "Why was it necessary to give these guys hyper-tech?"

This.

Fuck the line between scifi and fantasy. Break that shit with your big writer dick.

Draenei aren't really particualy hyper-techy by setting standards. They're definitely more advanced than somebody like Orcs, but on par with multiple other factions. Sure, they had the Exodar (the "space ship" they crashed on Azeroth in), but they didn't build it (it belonged to the Naaru. who just let the Dranei hitch a ride on it) and, aside from looking more crystal-ly and being far better at teleporting, isn't really all that different from Dalaran built by human mages; both are effectively magical flying cities (although Exodar can't fly anymore since the crash broke it). Technology-wise, their stuff looks fancy with the crystals they use as building material, and they do have magitech stuff but nothing that's really out of line with the stuff other magically advanced factions have (magical" forcefields" and animated constructs are also used by multiple kinds of Elves). They still ride animals and use melee weapons, their melee weapons are just made from purple crystal instead of metal. In a way Dwarves are more technologically advanced, as while they have less magic and magitech they do have gunpowder and steam engines, to the point of being able to build steam-driven tanks armed with cannons.

If anything it's the Gnomes that stick out tech-level wise. Dwarves may have guns and steam power, Draenei and Elves magically animated constructs, but Gnomes have robots, lasers, shrink-rays, and their capital was powered by a fucking nuclear reactor!

Because of the sci-fi/fantasy split that began in the 50s and was solidified by the late 60s/early 70s. Before that they were the same genre, and you'd get things like Conan dealing with autochthonic robot men or Tesla wands; or Doc Savage dealing with high sorcery and blatant magic.

The granddaddy of both genres is John Carter of Mars. It blends both, makes no excuses for either, and is superior to all of them.

Isn't the planet itself the goddess/Titan though? She/it just hasn't awoken yet.

A workaround is to have the alien invaders moribund as a species, with most of their tech and resources to use it lost.

Because we want fantasy, not sci-fi. Unlike back in the day we want what it says on the tin.

That's a really awesome piece of art, user.

Now for my rant which may be mistaken for an answer:

Warcraft, in general, is a whole clusterfuck of technology levels and in hindsight was a bad example. Regarding the Draenei, they are the most prominent example that I could think of, and regarding the Exodar, as far as I am aware it was supposed to run on a magitechnical engine which had to be maintained somehow, and which was then sabotaged by Kael'thas' Blood Elves. So I have assume that there must be knowledge independently of the Naaru to which both Draenei and Blood Elves must have had access. The Exodar is in so much not comparable to dalaran, as it is described as a floating satellite of the Tempest Keep, which is itself more like Dalaran, but also described as a dimensional ship, which should make it more like a vessel than a habitat. So the Exodar is a more barebones, primitive mechanism than its mothership, but still carries all the necessities of a high-technology environment.

Now I agree, the Draenei themselves use medieval equipment crafted from material that is very similar to other medieval equipment, which makes them fairly even with other races. Now this is exactly the thing that leads me to the question: Why was it necessary to use Draenei to bring themes of aliens and, if nothing else, science-fiction _aesthetics_ to the world, when in the bigger scheme of things, these things would change nothing of substance?

Mind you "It looked cool" is a viable justification, but again is entirely dependent on what the author wants and the consumer demands, and if the author wins the consumer through medieval themes alone and stretches it with the rare oddity of magitech, then adding spacefaring themes to such an extent as to revolve an entire chapter around it is going to make things sour most likely.

[ANGRY HIST NOISES]

So they're made irrelevant to the point of being a nice little piece of background information?

Again, this begs the question: Why include a distinctly alien/science-fiction bit at all in your setting?

If it's a campaign you're running, does that mean your adventurers get to have the one funcitoning piece of alientech? So do you as a GM then go on to pull more and more alientech opponents out of nowhere just so your group has worthwhile combat encounters? Do you take their toy away after some time, making another piece of this alien theme mostly irrelevant to the game?

I'm not trying to be hostile here, I am just trying to ask what the point is in adding alien/science-fiction themes in something that is advertised as "medieval", "ancient" or "paleontholical".

This is leaving out science-fantasy, of course. Science-fantasy is a wonderful middleground that is all too underappreciated, and where I am most happy to concede all my points, because then the whole thing is from beginning to end about swords in space, or robots in the stone age or whatever, although these settings need to be thoroughly distinguished from either science-fiction or fantasy.

There is a criminal lack of sauce on this image

>So they're made irrelevant to the point of being a nice little piece of background information?

Nah, in that particular setting their impact was massive even if there aren't any rayguns lying around any more, and sci-fi aesthetics are only visible in places where people don't tend to go unless they're very unfortunate.

Think of the question of aliens this way: you pick ancient aliens or ancient gods to explain some things in the world for metaplot reasons. If your intentions for the world you build don't need anything but magic to explain non-mundane things you don't need aliens. There are several settings that involve aliens well known on Veeky Forums , Warhammer Fantasy for example had the Old Ones who are responsible for pretty much everything in the world even if it looked like a standard fantasy one superficially, and robots/rayguns etc were not something adventurers got or ever saw.

Is "paleontholical" a word btw?

It's paleontological, I'm sorry I didn't spellcheck lol.

I hated the Asari in ME 1, ironically I liked them more when I found out they weren't the perfect mary sue bi alien sex babe, but more of a sentient parasite living off their superiors that practiced slavery.

I have always been a fan of the idea that extraterrestrials, UFOs, and alien abductions are simply the modern version of fae, earth lights and changeling kidnappings, and use them basically interchangeably because they cover all the same themes and can be described in the exact same way. There is very little difference between a fae creature traveling through the air in a glowing toadstool and kidnapping people to perform magic on, and a grey alien in a flying saucer abducting people to do experiments on.

It works when the two are mixed together, honestly. And the two aren't kept separate as much as you might think.

Funnily enough the Lizardmen has a ray gun as a 'magic item'.

*had

That pic.

>Who wants this up their ass first?

>what are extraplanar creatures
>what is the far realm
>what is spelljammer

literally aliens in fantasy

I really wish they develop Spelljammer into it's own setting, instead of just a glorified travel plane.

I crashed a ship into the game world and released xenomorphs on my players. Fun was had.

Spelljammer was its own setting. Nobody liked it.

Not really, it had a barebones kit to make your own setting using it, and focused too damn much on the spheres of other D&D settings.

..The fuck is wrong with you and your dumb brain. Nevermind that the Spelljammer itself is a setting, nevermind the fucking Rock of Bral, nevermind the Elven Fleets and the Neogi, Nevermind the Gnomish Freewheelers, nevermind the Arcane, the Goblin Fleets, and the Giff...

Actually, don't nevermind them, but there was plenty there, is the point.

It's implied that Elune might be the setting's equivalent of Abrahamic god and the creator of the Naaru which are her angels. The Titans? Old Gods? Void Lords? All just free loading shits with delusions of grandeur.