Warmachine/Hordes General - /wmhg/

>What heavies can survive synergy at 3? And how are you supposed to out-heavy 10p heavies?

Just shoot them to pieces at range.

>Just shoot them to pieces at range.
Choir.

There's enough access to magical weapons to deal with choir.

You have enough magical weapons to shoot 8 jacks off the table? Outside of Caine1 I don't really see that happening. And even then it's a stretch.

>coc wont get theme lists
>or a way to make conflux useful

rm -r hopes&dreams

That look nice, thank you

CoC is confirmed for a theme in this doc.

>coc wont get theme lists
They're getting one this week.

Yesssss it is finally time for everyone to acknowledge the superiority of the abs

Ossyan with MHSF is one easy example.

Posted last thread but want input. Wanted to run sexy dragon lady with predominately heavies, not having to worry about much else:

Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Proteus [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
The Forsaken [4]
The Forsaken [4]

Can this list function well, despite lacking some token animus beasts for Slipstream/Wraithbane? It looks nice on paper.

>MHSF
Are Blessed. Not Magical.

A&H

Mhsf are blessed, but not magical?

>tfw Khador

Mkdir hopes&dreams

I don't see a lot of ret players bringing them anymore since they are no longer partisan, and lose Kiss.

So you have 1 unit that gets 1 turn of shooting into those 8 jacks. Let's also assume 2-3 shots from Warjacks. I am sorry but that is not going to be enough. That might take away 1 or 2, but then you will eat the alpha.

I guess we have to out-threaten Amon's Battlegroup. What's his range, 11"?

It is with Electromancers to fuck your warjacks up as well.

1 Unit of Electromancers fucks with 1 Jack per round. I mean, good idea, it's certainly something, but I don't see it being enough.

Getting rid of choir seems like a necessity. What are some good ways of doing that, ambush?

Khador can spam 5 man squads of Kossites for 7 points a unit, threatening 12.5" charges or 19" POW 10 shots from flanks.

Add Eyriss as well, that fucks another unit up.

Now two jacks are doing nothing, and on average, the MHSF kill two Crusaders, plus whatever Ossyan's battlegroup does.

Other merits are the Battle Engine, which can either slam(use the MHSF to kill the Fortified Jack first, of course) or hit with POW16s. You can bring also bring a unit of kittens to force the Amon player to choose between no spells or no ranged attacks, and calling no spells means the MHSF just kill the Fortified jack and then push everything anyways.

The problem I'm seeing with that is that once the ambushers get to the choir (probably turn 3), the shooting protection will no longer be relevant.

no ranged, I should say.

If they call no spells then you just get to shoot them to death with the rest of Ossyan's army.

>the MHSF kill two Crusaders
About 1.5 on average.

Other than that it sounds like you have a valid game plan. As long as that list can play into Sevy2 and Reclaimer (should be good with Shatterstorm) you should have a Protectorate drop.

I haven't seen an Ossyan list bring mittens ever. This is turning out to be a weird bizzaro Ossyan that sounds like it would do pretty bad into other lists

Changing metas change what you should bring.

I'd never seen Ossyan players bring mittens either, because there was never any need. But they present a real answer in this setup, and aren't entirely useless otherwise. Hell, he has Fortune for them now as well.

Keep in mind that Vassals counter Disruption, especially in amon's feat turn, when he can just shift his focus around anyway.

Focus Leak isn't considered Disruption. And with that being said, perhaps two units of electromancers instead of Eyriss. That even gives Ossyan some wider range of options for dealing with spam lists, for example.

Something like this, as a first build.

conflictchamber.com/#b51b464l4G4G3m3o3ubCf23i8M3yf2

Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points

(Ossyan 1) Lord Arcanist Ossyan [+28]
- Hypnos [18]
- Aspis [6]
- Aspis [6]
Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16]
- Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander [4]
- Soulless Escort (1) [1]
Arcantrik Force Generator [16]
House Vyre Electromancers [8]
House Shyeel Battle Mages [10]
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
House Vyre Electromancers [8]

This list also presents a very real threat to Amon as well. If Hypnos gets Shadow Bind off on Amon himself, then Fortune'd MHSF have a very good chance at killing him.

Haven't been paying attention lately, do we know the Mk.III stats for the Helios already?

Yeah, it's in war room

5 17 6 5 10 19
construct pathfinder

tractor beam, RNG 12 ROF 3, pushes 3" instead of damage

inferno fists, P+S 21, continuous fire, 1" on boxed

battlecollege.org/index.php/Helios

SKORNE SPOILERS WHERE

NEVER. AND YES I FUCKING MAD. I JUST WANT TO PLAY WMH AGAIN BUT FUCKING PP IS TOO BUSY SUCKING THEIR OWN COCKS OVER GRIND AND SHIT TO FIX THEIR FUCKING MESS OF A GAME

TOO BUSY BUFFING THE YARDSTICK FACTION IN TURN THROWING OFF THE GAME'S ENTIRE BALANCE

END OF THE MONTH

PPS_JACKSON SAID SO

WHAT THE FUCK. IT WAS MIDDLE OF THE MONTH LAST TIME I CHECKED

GOT A STEAMROLLER ON THE 5TH OF FEB

FUCKING SERIOUSLY MAN

Anyone? Is this at least going to be fun?

Are there any medium based ten mans outside of trolls?

Looks fine to me. Is speedy assaination the name of the game? If so a seraph, angelius might help to get positioning just right.

Name of the game is just to run as many beasts/jacks as I can with beast/jack casters I like, and a limited amount of Support.

More or less assassination, especially with flight on heavies. If I cut a Carnivean for a Seraph, I can point fill with 3/2 Shepherds/Spell Martyrs. I'm just not sure if they are necessary (if the extra 2" is worth it on one when others are lagging behind).

I'm hoping there's something interesting with the Legion theme forces. If we get something nifty like free Shepherds (or anything close to the obscene Protectorate theme force) I'll be happy.

I understand where you are coming from. Another benefit is that you can be armor 20 on the approach with such a list.

My personal preference would be dropping one carnivean for a neraph, deathstalker, and 3 shepherd. Maybe another carnivean for a ravagore.

I hope the theme force they reveal this week will be like a legion version of the menoth one. I want free forsaken.

Is it possible to run an army that is 1 caster and one of the massive robots like the kraken?

>Another benefit is that you can be armor 20 on the approach with such a list.
Not without frenzying.

Well yu can run those but that's not a complete army. You usually have ~100p to spend and Colossals or Gargantuans usually cost between 36 and 39 points.

But they're apart of normal play?

Yes, absolutely. They're just normal models with a bunch of type-specific rules. Not all of them are good (Hydra, Storm Raptor, Sepulcher and Conflux are notoriously bad) and their value is highly dependent on context. For example a Stormwall is a lot better with Arcane Shield, but doesn't want to see Ossyan with Mage Hunter Strikeforce.

>Not without frenzying.
At worst, you have one Carnivean checking to Frenzy (or, you know, just hanging one back). Abby handles 3, and you can put Bracer up on something to compensate.

And believe me, if you fail a threshold check (8 on 2d6) on turn 2, you better just concede because luck is not with you.

>Abby handles 3
And sits on 0? Fool-proof plan.

;^)

>sits on 0
>turn 2 of the game
>behind a wall of large-base models
Yeah man, gotta watch those drop pod terminator squads coming in as reinforcements or something, right?

NO NIPPLES NO AMON
dude, I think we already had this
Amon needs his nipples
Look here, those are some good Amon nipples

>Not without frenzying
Just don't force them all to SG. Though getting some fury on the forsaken might help for later.

Mercs got Assault Ogryns and Greygore Boomhwoler (though he is a troll I guess), Cryx got Bloodgorgers. Are Legion Grotesques medium based?
That's what I can think off the top of my head, maybe there's some more

No. I wish grotesques were that size since their wings get in the way on small bases.

Has anyone found a good way to use it? I've proxied a few times and it never seems to get much done, it wants to spend so much focus for the abilities and boosting.

I love the model I just don't want to but it and have it sit unused

Kill the Choir first.

I don't think so. Ogrun units are all 5-man or solos. The "heavy" infantry are 5 or 6 man units. Boomhowlers and Bloodgorgers are really just troll infantry units that happen to work for other factions.

Bloodgorgers in Cryx (assuming you mean outside of trolls as a faction, because the Bloodgorgers are blighted trolls)

To elaborate: I don't think that list is good at all. It's a one-trick-pony and that trick is not really good or unique. If you want to spam ARM20, play Khador.

>he thinks you play that list for the ARM20

What else do you play a Carnivean spam for then? Because it offers nothing a more balanced list doesn't do miles better. Hell, it can't even properly alpha strike.

Its an assassination list I thought? Proteus to place a key model into a position that allows the carniveans to assault charge spays into a warcaster.

That is beyond janky. Might aswell just go for double blight blades and try to plink the enemy caster to death.

what are some beneficial matchups for CoC? I'm new to the game and I've beaten a 75-p Cygnar against not!Iron Man and a 25 against trolls, but I've lost against Khador three times, Menoth twice, and I actually lost against Skorne because I got charged by a tibs and a line of gladiators that took out four of my jacks and tilted me out of the game.

I think my big problem is that all the games I've lost save two were against lists being optimized for tourney play, where I'm just throwing together a fun list to try out to learn my faction a little better? That and the fact that my dice rolls are consistently meaning I have a 40% hit rate, but I'm not 100% sure if that's because of my dice rolls or because Vector means my 'jacks tend to have below-average MAT/RAT

Flares and yuge amount of foci is the reason why coc has shitty mat/rat on vectors.

>I think my big problem is that all the games I've lost save two were against lists being optimized for tourney play, where I'm just throwing together a fun list to try out to learn my faction a little better? That and the fact that my dice rolls are consistently meaning I have a 40% hit rate, but I'm not 100% sure if that's because of my dice rolls or because Vector means my 'jacks tend to have below-average MAT/RAT

Lazy analysis is that Khador and Menoth do what you do only cheaper and better, and you let Skorne Alpha you.

>What else do you play a list highly offensive heavies with strong defenses in a list where they get even more absurd with 12" flying charges with RNG 2 weapons and assault sprays for then?
Gee bob I dunno. A beast with 4 strong initial attacks, one of them being a clearing Sp10 Pow14, and you're honestly wondering why you play Carniveans? They're really good all-rounders. The only way that list would be differentiated is if he took Ravagore or two for AOE or infantry blocking (which aren't popular in MK3), or a Scythean for dedicated melee instead, which Proteus does just fine.

What's your definition of "balanced"? A Naga for getting Wraithbane so you can get a few extra dice every once in a while? A Seraph for 2" that likely won't matter when you have five 19pt heavies ready to smash a line? I guess he COULD shed a point and take a Spell Martyr? Hell, if Legion's beast theme is as good as the Protectorate's, you might get some free Forsakens or Shepherds or something.

>running 5 heavies at the caster using flight is "jank"
lol ok

>coc of slow
>not getting alphad 24/7

Your primary game plan relying on assault spraying a caster to death is jank. And 12" threat is nothing special. For example, it's 2" less than good Abby2 lists.

By *Skorne*? The only way it is going to happen if it's built so obviously you can see it coming.

Tiberion and a line gladiators. Does CoC do screening infantry these days?

I had a line of Reciprocators, but Tibs chewed through them pretty quick and the gladiators walked through to my jacks. that was a game where as soon as my turn ended I said "I fucked up" then lost more than half my army

CoC has pretty good matchups against both Khador and Menoth, and Skorne, to be honest.

What's your caster and list?

>Lazy analysis is that Khador and Menoth do what you do only cheaper and better

That is pretty lazy, and also wrong.

The only one that gets Alpha'd hard is Lucant, everyone else has shit to move faster or deal with the Alpha.

Played CoC competitively since mk3, played PoM mk2 for 3 years.

CoC is obviously very dependent of the casters you choose. The good matchups may just be polar opposites between, say, an Aurora infantry list and a Lucant vector list. So it's kinda hard to tell.

My feeling so far is that we struggle a lot against heavy armor is the TEP (battle engine) is not around, and that high def spam is super hard to deal with unless you pick specific answers (Attunement servitor + TEP/Eradicators/Positive charged shit/...).

Add the complex Induction system that is kinda hard to fully optimize and grasp, and CoC feels like being on the hardest faction to play at the moment.

I feel like CoC, if it brings a TEP, can have the upper hand against any combined arms list, and depending on the caster can be crushing a majority of the current top casters across the game. My feeling is the most difficult matchups are Hordes warbeast heavy factions combined with decent DEF (like 13+) as most of our troops and jack will struggle to hit. On the other hand the easiest match ups are the low DEF medium to high ARM opponent.

CoC have average+ threat ranges usually, and slower armies are no big deal.

I'm a bit surprised to be honest that you struggle on Khador, PoM and Skorne that I would pretty much all classify as easy targets for CoC.

Try the TEP, and abuse the Cipher rough terrain against non-pathfinder heavies. Don't field to much support and be very cautious with your positioning, and that should do the trick.

I know that playing PoM for 3 years, including counter-meta warjack centric lists, helped me a lot with positioning. That's really key for CoC as well, as most of our pieces are just plain average and need synergies AKA good positioning to deal with the opposing powerhouses.

I wouldn't say CoC has real problems with cracking armor, every caster but Aurora has a damage buff.

Hitting is more of an issue, but that comes down to Induction chains. If you don't have that shit figured out, then yea, those MAT/RAT scores are going to look awful terrible.

Lucant was my caster in the Alpha'd situation, yeah. I'm trying out a few things since I'm just getting started, but the core tends to be
(CASTER)
Corollary
Inverter (usually one, but I was trying two yesterday and it was kinda alright? they weren't able to help me with Directrix, but my enemy was running full sniper Khador and hitting 16 damage a round as well as running the anti-witch merc so I was spending more time blocking with them than moving them forward)
PA
Cipher
Recip max.
TEP
OD+attachment for more heals

it was a good list working with Lucant, then I switched to double-inverter double-cipher TEP Recips on Axis and got completely shut down by an Amon with two choirs because he essentially said "you can't shoot my six heavies if you're not magic" and then ran the board out from under me, then I fucked up in an on-the-spot Directrix build and went "if he's running a bunch of one-HP units I can beat that with servitors" and got outranged by the snipers

I should also clarify that I have yet to put together an Aurora infantry list, and after last night I want to put together a proper list for Lucant, Directrix, and Axis before I start throwing another caster into it and confusing myself even more.

All our casters (but Aurora) have damage buffs indeed, but some are really lackluster comapred to others.

For instance, Mother's Imperil is not very reliable, with flat unboostable RAT5 and relatively low range if your opponent play well enough and sniped/threat Mom' servitors.
Lucant on the other hand can cast Positive Charge, says, twice and all the army suddenly wreck everything.

The hard part (except with Lucant who can deal with it by taking the alpha and Axis in some way with his feat) is to allow the Induction chain to take place while advancing in melee. Usually, your opponent won't let you chain 3x3 Focus on 3 melee jacks when you rush his colossus, and Foc can be a problem very quickly.

Prime Axiom is the only piece able to trade heavies from range (Drag!) and still allow easy induction chains.

TEP + OD should deal with Amon just fine.

Heck, even without OD it's not a problem. Just target a Choirboy or something out of range to get your sprays on the opposing heavies.
Also, always field Attunment servitors with the TEP. Being able to reliably hit twice with 5d6 dmg (and without sacrificing a Cipher's activation) is a big deal.

I'd say Lucant without Axiom and Mother with Axiom can take Amon just fine. Not enough experience with Axis. Aurora will struggle because of the ARM spam, but could try it on Incursion or Hold the Line.

Define a good list. That list is just fine.

So, first thing: Optifex Directive can give any model in our faction(besides Axis) magical weapons, so Passage is basically a giant trap for the Menoth player.

Second thing is, sorry to say, lists aren't usually super modular in CoC. Shit that works well for one caster doesn't work very well for another.

At the core, what I'm saying, is a pretty good list. Some kinks(The UA on the OD is kind of a waste), but ultimately fine for dealing with what you're looking at.

>Your primary game plan relying on assault spraying a caster to death is jank.
You're a moron; there are multiple people in this conversation. My plan is not to spray a caster to death (as one suggested) but to... well, you know, use the FLIGHT you get from her FEAT to pile the shit out of the caster.

But yeah, it's just a jank list. :^)

>That is pretty lazy, and also wrong.

'Caster-buffing battlegroups full of econo-priced but good warjacks along with a list-wide toolkit also largely provided by the warcaster?

I mostly put the UA on her because I wasn't thinking of things that I could use the points for, but as pointed out I can better spend the points on Attunement Servitors to give the TEP better shots.

with that list minus the UA and adding attunement servos it will beat Amon, but how would it stand up to most other things? I want to try making a list that I can run that can reliably deal with multiple casters; even if it's only two or three casters it's a victory for me and my list-making

You do realize that WTC is where Jank lists are actually used competitively, since it's a lot easier to place them into the matchups they're actually good for?

WTC-style events have very significantly different listbuilding from every other format.

You're still probably going to lose quite often against experienced players bringing solid lists. That's just part of the learning experience.

So that ultimately means that the issues here are tactics, not strategy.

And that's a matter of figuring shit out. As I said, you've got a pretty decent list, at least for Lucant, so let's talk about that.

So, what you want to leverage in Lucant is using the Axiom as area denial/objective holder, the Inverter to curb offensives and alphas, and the Cipher to slow down and disrupt the enemy.

Lucant is extremely resistant to shooting, so you're forcing your opponent to get in close, which you're cool with him doing it. Proper turn for feating is extremely important: It's very common to feat to avoid an alpha, and there are times that's good, but if it just causes your faster opponent to hold back another turn, then you've usually wasted it.

To be honest, Amon is a very tough nut to crack, with him dealing with all of the Menoth jacks downsides(Pathfinder to ignore rough terrain, Fortify prevents drags, no spells can be very annoying), but he's got fairly linear threat ranges that if you know about can let you deal with his shot.

For the other casters:

Axis does not want a Prime Axiom. He wants Inverters, and can take a Cipher and a Conservator.

Mom does not want an Inverter. It does alright, but it doesn't really help with her overall game plan.