ITT things that tick you off

Holy fuck, that's autistic. Vicious mockery isn't casting spells, it's just shouting. You are just so good at it that your enemy gets so embarrassed it's hurtful.

Oh.
I didn't know that
Nevermind this Your party is stupid.

>The fighter cannot shitpost in casters vs. martials threads if you disable his hands

I'm planning on doing this with my players. AN important plot piece is in fact a really old cursed weapon. Make it better than all the other weapons but its slowly reducing the users saves

As long as the curse is, at least in way, identifiable, that's cool.
Since it's an important plot item, you could make it difficult to identify if you wanted, but not impossible.

To me, the whole fun of cursed items is the balance between caution and desire.
When GM's seemingly curse for the sake of cursing, it feels spiteful.

Ooh, reminds me of a magic item in my campaign
>+1 magic greatsword that belonged to an enemy of the party
>It gives weird visions of the future to the party member that carries it, visions that may or may not happen
>Secretly an evil sentient sword trying to corrupt the party

Its a fucking spell.

>Spell's only component is to shout insults.
>While standing in a crowd of people yelling, screaming, and shouting at the battle
>Is somehow not the perfect opportunity to stealthily cheat the fight.

sounds like a plan famalam.

And its still a FUCKING SPELL. It's still fucking magic.

1d4 isn't fucking worth that. That's Snidely Whiplash stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.

And why is that a bad thing? Like, there's nothing else to use that specific spell for the rest of the day and you need to take every advantage you can.

>That's Snidely Whiplash stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.
No, its Snidely Whiplash knocking over a few 2x4's into his competitor's path to buy him an extra second or two to win the race.

>stopping
How is casting the spell in complete stealth at range from concealement with no way to track it back to you to help your side win a fight a bad thing?

Think about it. To try and get a TINY advantage in the fight you introduce huge risk to yourself and the group by getting DQed from the fight.

Magic is detectable. It's not disguised. Sure, it might be hard to tell what a given spell is from incantation alone, that's what Spellcraft is for, but it's obvious when you're doing it. That's like saying you can't tell Inspire Courage from regular music. Of course you can. It's an insult that literally deals the damage of a solid punch, or a dagger blow. There's no way it could be mistaken for mere banter.

Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?

>huge risk
Really?
>Magic is detectable. It's not disguised. Sure, it might be hard to tell what a given spell is from incantation alone, that's what Spellcraft is for, but it's obvious when you're doing it.
Except the components for the spell are literally just shouting something at a target and only the target would take damage. And unless you have dozens of high level wizards everywhere it'll be incredibly unlikely that anyone is going to bother wasting a spell slot on something so undetectable. That is, unless you're a railroading GM that refuses to let the players interact in any way with pre-planned events.
>Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?
One, only like a max of eight people could be close enough to even hear the character with everyone around them, and even then they'll take massive penalties due to all the noise and the fact that they're paying attention to the fight and not to what the random person in the crowd a row behind them is shouting.

A giant wouldn't notice a human punch in the midst of a battle. Why should it notice a magically-damaging shout in the midst of a crowd? Both by setting logic and by game logic it makes sense for the giant not to notice; it's like expecting a galloping horse to respond to a flick of the finger, and it's only a very small portion of the giant's maximum hit points. As players, you are distinctly aware of the abstractions of hit points and damage, but that isn't the case for NPCs -- nor, as long as you aren't metagaming, even the PCs.

Not that guy, but you really don't get it, do you? Look at the scenario. You have giants fighting, obviously stronger than the PCs as they don't just kill the challenger outright the night before and solve the problem. Casting anything would incur the risk of getting smashed by a giant. Even if it's a low chance of detection, don't think there isn't a chance. And the 'help' you'd provide is merely 1d4 damage, enough to be noticed by the reciever as not coming from his opponent while not really helping at all the fight, as they're giants and probably have a lot of HP.

The thing stupid players don't get is that a small chance is still a chance. Don't pretend there won't be spot checks after you cast a damn spell in public, no matter how "sneaky" you think you're being. "I have a 10% chance of causing a near TPK, but it's worth taking down 2% of his health down!" is a retarded line of thought. If you account for the fact that you'd have to cast it multiple times to have any real impact, it becomes clearly suicidal.

>That's Dick Dastardly stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.

Fix'd

>Sometimes this spell just doesn't work based on your GM's whim :^)

Again, why does it exist in the first place if it's not going to do anything half the time? It's pointless mother-may-I bullshit.

I put in a cursed item for my players, and the paladin found it. It was a powerful longsword that was initially a +1 Flaming burst, but came with a curse that was too high for them to know at the time, since they were level 2.

Every time you kill a target, I would take a tally for just that person, and after every five tally marks I roll a d100 to see if their character has a dream. If they do, I ask them in private to roll a will save. It's not a high will at first but gets progressively moreso the more tally marks they acquire. Every failed willsave begins to make their character act more irrationally, believing this ancient sword is a legendary device useed by the gods to banish nonbelievers. Slowly, the target slips into madness and undergoes alignment changes.

Remove curse does work, but the caster for it needs to be 14th level or higher. They managed to rid the paladin of it, the curse, when lifted, in its dismissal deals 1d6 WIS and 1d6 CHA drain, that then has to be removed with a following remove curse of the same faith.

Truthfully, my party loved it. It added a moral conflict to the group when the pally was teetering on the edge of falling.

So. What were the players supposed to do during the fight? If they weren't allowed to interfere in any way the GM should have just wrapped it up by saying "this giant won." Besides, there is literally no chance of getting caught in this scenario. How would they get detected? Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face? Why is it that one person shouting is instantly singled out and discovered among a lively crowd of spectators?

I had something like that in one campaign. The Aegis of the Dutiful Warden. Really nice if well worn set of armor that fits the aethetic of the most uncivilized or criminal person in it's vicinity when not owned. It made the wearer immune to backstabs and other 'dishonorable' combat maneuvers, as well as better DR vs attacks from criminals and other wrongdoers, but gradually made the wearer more and more compelled to follow the law and to place themselves in the service of a ruler, and also gradually shifted into whatever form of armor is associated with law enforcement, justice and righteousness in the region. They were essentially created to trick barbarians and ne'er do wells into using it and becoming upright members of society by an ancient king

What's the downside?

Essentially if you don't find a way to remove it, you basically turn into a dredd clone who treats whatever the law of the land is as an unbreakable geas. Plus, most people don't really care to have their rogue/barb turn into a were-paladin

>Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?
Are you the kind of imbred that would think if someone is walking around with an excellent illusion spell for a disguise, every single fucking passerbyer who isn't trying to particularly observe shit and just wants to go on with their day has to make a roll because they have a chance to notice it?

Ya I haven't fucking pulled this before, but your a no-fun faggot, a stupid one at that, plain and simple.

Logically put (to back up why you're such a fag), my scenario isn't even equivalent to yours(mine has the magic user more likely to be discovered honestly), because in anons case no one is even paying attention to the humans because they're all too absorbed watching a fight between other giants.

Plus, the very description of the spell says Vicious Mockery says it involves subtle enchantments. Not some great fucking display of flames or lights or noise or shit, subtle enchantments. Do you know what subtle means retard? It means; so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe. As in, something that normally wouldn't be simple to catch, but definitely wouldn't be recognizable unless it's very actively being looked for in a a roaring and load crowd of giants.

user, does your GM punish you guys actively for trying to be creative? That's a pretty solid idea you have, that disadvantage on a cantrip is definitely worth it. If he isn't proactively beating you guys for creativity, then you're group is just comprised of chickenshits.

You know, a very similar scenario happened in a campaign I was playing in. It was the party Fighter that had to win the duel against a giant. Guess what the Bard did.

Of course, our GM had established that there was a reasonably levelled spellcaster ready to punk him when he tried something. He still tried something, though.

I personally couldn't resist going one step further. When our Fighter ran out of hit points, I used Polymorph and turned him into a giant ape (with its own HP, you see). Out of character, the table thought this was a pretty cool thing to do. In character, the Fighter now thinks that's just a thing he does when he almost dies. I used the same trick later, so technically he's right.

You've convinced your fighter that he's Goku. Good shit.

Learn to read.
>>Party has to help a giant win a duel against another giant without interfering mid-duel.
Buffs, borrowing wondrous items the party might have, giving some tips on how to fight this particular giant, maybe even scrying to know how he fights and how to counter it. Stop acting as if you can only talk and nothing more unless you're in combat. You're just a shitty player.

Also, you're so certain your spell would be "undetectable!", without any real proof or reason to believe no one would ever roll spot even passively. Would you like to take a Stilled Save-Or-Die in the middle of the street? No, that's wly you have perception AND the save. If you at least cared enough to Silent Spell it, you MIGHT pass it off as another guy near you doing the trick. It packs the punch of a dagger for fuck's sake. You'd be mad if the GM said "and misteriously, you take 3 damage" every round if you were the one dueling. You'd scream bullshit and railroading, and yet here you are, trying to pull the retarded stunt. Your party was right and you should feel bad.

Not really considered cursed, but I did give my players an item that has a risk-reward mechanic attached. Basically, it let's the wielder cast a spell with negative effects on the target as a bonus action, but the spell also hits the wielder. For example, cast fireball as a bonus action and the wielder has to save for half. Gonna have to do a lot of on-the-spot rulings on less straightforward spells, but hopefully it won't end up monstrously overpowered.

The spell's description is literally 'subtle'. Also, these are fucking commoners. Even if they hear something strange they won't immediately run away to the Magic police because someone was yelling weird.

>"I have a 10% chance of causing a near TPK, but it's worth taking down 2% of his health down!" is a retarded line of thought.
This.
This whole post.

>What were the players supposed to do during the fight?
Excellent question.
Possibly distract the enemy giant, inspire their giant, or provide an environmental advantage or access to an improvised weapon?
It sounds a bit like a puzzle.
But without further detailed information about the scenario, I'd have to agree that "the GM should have just wrapped it up"
Even so, bad GMing doesn't make a stupid idea less stupid, just more understandable because of the boredom.

>there is literally no chance of getting caught in this scenario.
Objectively false.

>How would they get detected?
Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?

>Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face?
Something about being viciously mocked so badly they take damage?
If, by spell description, the target has to hear and understand the mockery, then the giant would have reason to turn from the fight.

>Why is it that one person shouting is instantly singled out and discovered among a lively crowd of spectators?
I would put the difficulty to target the right shouter pretty high unless the giant had some clear means to do so.

>yfw you get swatted by a dumb giant because the bard wanted to expend a spell slot.

"That strange clown-like guy with shiny trinkets is saying strange stuff and the giant felt something hitting it. Looks like witchcraft and he's cheating." GUESS WHAT HAPPENS.

>I want to circumvent all challenge to this game
>Every roadblock can be solved with the click of my fingers

Just kinda lurking. but you're wrong about one thing. For vicious Mockery, the target just has to hear the mockery, not understand it.

That is false. More like
>That normal looking guy yelled such an insult at the giant that the giant visibly winced!

And only the giant would have an inkling of knowledge that something happened, but if they timed it to the other giants punches, I don't think it'd notice.

>>Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face?
>Something about being viciously mocked so badly they take damage?
>If, by spell description, the target has to hear and understand the mockery, then the giant would have reason to turn from the fight.
Then that giant gets hit by an AOO from the other giant currently trying to kill it.

>Possibly distract the enemy giant, inspire their giant, or provide an environmental advantage or access to an improvised weapon?
That sounds like interfering mid-battle.

Calling a magic item greatsword +2

The twist:
The greatsword is enchanted so that every time you hit someone two further enchanted "Greatsword +2" are created
Every time
with everyone

Hey, instant army-supplier.

I always remove it if I have a chance.

Ah.
That's why I said "if".
So, the giant wouldn't be the one doing the detecting.

>Then that giant gets hit by an AOO from the other giant currently trying to kill it.
Yep, but it seems like the only distraction would be 1d4 damage, which is not likely to distract a brawling giant.

>That sounds like interfering mid-battle.
"How do help but not interfere?" is the puzzle.
Allowing opportunities for your giant to help himself might be midway enough, or not.
Tossing them a giant sword is interference.
"Accidentally" knocking over a stool so it falls within gripping range is less obvious.
Ask a judge.

>everytime you hit someone
>they probably die from the hit since it's a magic fucking greatsword
>2 swords now
>1/3 of the army is dead, but the other 2/3 has a magic greatsword

Is this advantageous or not? I can't tell

>I hit my friend lightly with the flat of the greatsword
>Zero damage, 2 more greatswords
>Repeat as needed.

>using replicating sword on YOUR ARMY
My got I thought all the retards went to /mlp/.

I assume he meant like, a good solid hit, man

GOTTA SUPPLY FAST THE ARMY IS MARCHING ON OUR CAPITAL

>In character, the Fighter now thinks that's just a thing he does when he almost dies. I used the same trick later, so technically he's right.
Your fighter is a good player, and so are you. God speed.

Then just have that person wear anime-tier thick pauldrons to hit over and over again. You have to remember that just because you rolled below the AC doesn't mean that your hit mysteriously completely missed the target. Most misses are hits that just don't do any damage.

fucking, FINE, man you're no fun

>And its still a FUCKING SPELL. It's still fucking magic.
So the fuck what? Does every commoner in your game have maxed out ranks in spellcraft? Does every person get a spot check to notice every single thing within 200 yards of them? You're exactly the kind of faggot that would get booted from any game anyone I know would run or play in immediately.

Go back to BG2. You clearly can't handle creativity.

This is another "All dem dead babies" moment.

>Every time
>with everyone

Would you kindly answer the following questions, sir angry user?
Feel free to take a moment to breathe and also accept that I am not that user.

>Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
>Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?

You sound like every DM who should never run a game. Go back to gaia and freeform your novel with the other 12 year olds.

Well if you wanna do it that way...
>Butchers kill the animals with a greatsword
>Hire adventures to all use these swords to route out a local Goblin village.
>Give someone one gold piece for 100 chickens and slaughter every single one of them.
>Or maybe you could just use the single one you have as a way for people on Death's row to contribute back to society. Chop off extremities as quickly as possible before they bleed to death.
>Use the 100 you do have to supply people in the war. You'll get thousands after a single battle.

>You sound like every DM who should never run a game.
How so?
Because I apply reason?
Even if there were unseen mages scrying to detect magic, they wouldn't be infallible or even high level unless this fight were super important.

I admit I didn't know the rules involved, but I'm not running that system.

>hey let's risk DQ by cheating
>don't worry, the cheating will be so minor that most likely no one will notice

Then why are you even cheating? You're risking the entire plan on something that's main virtue is "will have little effect."

Because you're actively restricting the player's options and giving entirely undeserved punishments in return.
>Pop a 1d4 ranged damage spell that has the 'subtle' description while in optimal conditions to avoid it being noticed.
>>Giant turns around and smashes the stand you're in, killing over two dozen people and ignoring his incredibly dangerous opponent in favor of vengeance against an unknown 2 points of embarrassment damage.

>Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
>Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?
Here let me answer your questions with questions:
>If their magic detection is so infallible as to be inviolate, how are the PCs supposed to be involved in the scene?
>If the PCs can't use anything they have at their disposal to actually alter the events unfolding in front of them, why are they watching these events and instead of doing literally anything else, in or out of character?

If you put a giant fight in the game and say "you need to make sure this giant wins", you can't just shit all over the party's available methods of altering the outcome. If you do this, you are shit. Period, end of discussion, go home and fuck yourself to death with a plunger.

Chiming in here, this whole debate seems really fucking silly to me. It's a clever way to subtly interfere into the duel - since the spell is described as subtle, only involves shouting obscenities and can greatly change the tide of the battle by granting the giant a disadvantage, the player should be rewarded for quick thinking, not punished.

>Because I apply reason?
You don't apply reason, though. You apply your own biases and a stultifying amount of binary assumptions to an event and declaring anything that isn't "the way you planned it" happening as impossible.

90% of the fun of running a game is making a problem and watching in horror/glee/confusion as the players come up with some plan you never would have. If you can't let the players play, then kindly sell your books and buy Diablo.

Why just limit it to a greatsword and just +2? Let's have +4 rusty dagger! And +3 longswords! And hell, let's throw on a +5 arrow for Infinite recovered ammo.

Wouldn't that result in a total collapse of the weapons trade due to anyone being able to access infinitely replicating weapons?

>>Pop a 1d4 ranged damage spell that has the 'subtle' description while in optimal conditions to avoid it being noticed.
Still magic.
Still a non-zero chance of getting caught.
Still a big downside with very little upside.

>>>Giant turns around and smashes the stand you're in, killing over two dozen people and ignoring his incredibly dangerous opponent in favor of vengeance against an unknown 2 points of embarrassment damage.
Maybe, low probability if the rules had worked that way "What'd you say 'bout my manhood!?"
Depends largely on the giant in question.

The swatting was a joke.
Like user said, if it did happen, the other giant would get an AOO while the giant tried to figure out who said he was hung like a halfling. Then the fight would go on, mischief managed.

But the rules don't work that way.

>it is impossible to influence the duel beforehand, the party's only option is to personally participate

>You'd be mad if the GM said "and misteriously[sic], you take 3 damage" every round if you were the one dueling.

Out of character, yes. If I was a giant with more than 60HP and having a one on one duel with another giant I would just feel like he's hitting me harder than I thought he would.

Turns out that some people play these games to role play instead of being metagaming piece of shit contrarians like you.

That non-zero chance is so close to zero it doesn't even matter. Besides, every point matters when you can fight at your fullest all the way from 1000 to 1 HP.

Do you happen to be autistic by any chance? Not even trying to offend, just asking.

>>If their magic detection is so infallible as to be inviolate, how are the PCs supposed to be involved in the scene?
Perhaps by not using magic?
Perhaps by the methods I suggested in that same post?

>>If the PCs can't use anything they have at their disposal to actually alter the events unfolding in front of them, why are they watching these events and instead of doing literally anything else, in or out of character?
If that were the case, which it might not have been, then the GM should have skipped the fight.
Like I suggested in that same post?

>If you put a giant fight in the game and say "you need to make sure this giant wins", you can't just shit all over the party's available methods of altering the outcome. If you do this, you are shit.
I didn't.
The GM in question might not have.
Stop ignoring all non-magical options.
Stop being a silly sausage.

>High seas piracy game
>Playing as a member of the royal navy
>Catch my nemesis, lady swashbuckler
>She pleads her belly and gets off, to back to piracy again

Happened awhile back and I'm still fucking pissed. As if we didn't have enough shit now with the ghost pirate player.

>greatly change the tide of the battle
>1d4 damage to a giant
Pick one
Otherwise, I agree.

...

>You apply your own biases and a stultifying amount of binary assumptions to an event and declaring anything that isn't "the way you planned it" happening as impossible.
Point out where I did that.
Then point out on this doll where I touched you.

So I should instead whip out a bow with invisible arrows and start sniping from a distance?

>were-paladin
My sides

Welcome to the Martial-town casterfag. We have to play Mother-May-I to even try to keep pace with you and you bitch at us for even daring to try.

The part where you say that any and all magical interference, no matter how subtle or undetectable, will be incredibly risky and have very little effect on the battle overall.

Meant to reply to

>That non-zero chance is so close to zero it doesn't even matter.
What are you basing this assumption on?
The magical protection involved in the giant fight remains an unknown.
What sort of things can detect "subtle" spells?
How can the PCs be certain those things aren't present?
Answer those questions, and we're closer to being effectively zero.

>Besides, every point matters when you can fight at your fullest all the way from 1000 to 1 HP.
True enough.
But is it worth the risk?
We don't even know what was riding on the situation.

The fact that it might also cause the next attack to miss is a good risk. That's anywhere between 2d6+4 to 3d10+8 damage NOT happening to your giant.

>Do you happen to be autistic by any chance?
Nope.
I just think.
And when I think, I don't stop halfway.

Was it my use of "non-zero chance" that prompted the question?

Why do we assume that Vicious Mockery can even be detected by an outside party, when no such means, to my knowledge, exist in 5e?
Why do we assume that giants - people not known for being a race of intricate spellcasters - have the means to discern subtle spells from shouting? Is it because you pulled those possible means out of your ass?
Why do we assume that if there's "some" risk of those means both existing and being present, we shouldn't take this risk? Is it because adventurers are known for being wusses, not taking any risks at all, or shit MIGHT happen?
Why are you such a faggot?

Sure. %20 chance its detected by some magical doohickey. Is a %20 chance of failure worth the chance to make an opponent gain disadvantage on their next attackwhen each attack tears off great chunks of HP?

Ah, thank you.
I stand corrected.

Guys
Guys listen:
Unless we know the entire context of the situation (what mages where there, what kind of giants they were, what could have been done beforehand, etc) we can't decide on jack shit

Wait, don't most magic detection spells only work on magic objects?

>So I should instead whip out a bow with invisible arrows and start sniping from a distance?
How do you know if they have True Seeing or other means of detecting them?
Do the arrows stay invisible after reaching their target?
Can you retrieve them unnoticed at the end of the fight?
Are you actually incapable of actions that don't involve any magic?

>Why do we assume that Vicious Mockery can even be detected by an outside party, when no such means, to my knowledge, exist in 5e?

Because it has Verbal components and causes 1d4 damage and Disadvantage. Surely the giant being targeted would get some kind of roll to notice he's being magically influenced, even if he can't tell where from.

>Why do we assume that giants - people not known for being a race of intricate spellcasters - have the means to discern subtle spells from shouting?

Most giants have average Int, and Cloud Giants are innate spellcasters.

>Why do we assume that if there's "some" risk of those means both existing and being present, we shouldn't take this risk?

Because the benefit is d4s of damage and Disadvantage on a failed Wis save (something most breeds of giant don't lack in) at the cost of being caught-out doing the ONE THING you've been EXPLICITLY ASKED not to do.

Should've done it anyway

How do you know if this kobold isn't actually Tiamat in disguise? She could wipe the floor with you, you know.
Yeah, I know that the odds are really low that this random kobold in a god forgotten ruin is actually Tiamat, but what if? I mean, you never know, right? Tiamat probably can polymorph into kobolds, so there's a non zero chance of her being that kobold. So why don't we just go home instead of fighting those monsters?

This is how retarded you sound right now.