40k

It also used to be so that you could create a Chapter of a later Founding that may have come from one of those Legions. Thanks to BL though, you pretty much have to ignore official canon to have that happen, since they've made it pretty obvious that both Legions were gone for good before the Heresy started.

Source? The only indicator that either of them wound up being absorbed by the Ultras is a single rumour, and it came from a Legion that had a serious grudge against them. Unless there's new lore on that plot point that I'm unaware of.

>Source? The only indicator that either of them wound up being absorbed by the Ultras is a single rumour, and it came from a Legion that had a serious grudge against them. Unless there's new lore on that plot point that I'm unaware of.

It's referencing The First Heretic. Also it should be noted that the Word Bearers didn't "hate" the XIII legion, and the members that did were quietly purged by being sent to Calth. The Val Gorbak didn't have a burning rage against the Ultramarine

>Also it should be noted that the Word Bearers didn't "hate" the XIII legion,
How can one man be so wrong?

I assumed that the two primarchs just died when the chaos gods sent all the primarchs into space.

>Now if you mention the word "missing" in your chapter's fluff, you get hit with the Mary Sure label so hard you have to scrape your nose off the back of your skull.

I dunno, the Lightning Bearers (Legion II) that that guy on B&C came up with seem to be pretty popular.

Whenever I see complaints about missing Legion fanon, it's usually because they're rither secretly involved in or responsible for more major events in official canon than Oldcron-era C'tan, they're a super-awesome doomsday device, or because the person feels like the II and XI are one of those mysteries that should remain a mystery.

Also, sometimes it's just a matter of whether they really needed to use those Legions or not. It's not like using a pre-existing Legion/Chapter as your own Chapter's progenitor is going to change much in most cases, unless you fall into the trap of assuming a successor has to be a clone of the Chapter it came from.

But that's wrong. We know russ and the wolves purged one.

Pretty much typecasts one already. Anyway we'll never see them unless GW really wants to fuck the lore. Only they're doing that now with cadia and the primarchs returning.

The golden age comes again and this time the great crusade has xenos help and we're fighting chaos and the forces of destruction.

Read "Betrayer" and you'll be BTFO yet again. Argel Tal explains their views on the XIII

Seceded from the imperium without falling to chaos and founding small empires outside of the known galaxy
>here's the twist
There livable places that are safe and in someways better than the imperium and if the truth was found out then belief in the emperor would collapse due to there being a perfectly viable if not better option than the emperor and the imperium
>TLDR: the missing. Primarchs created the imperium's version of the farsight enclaves

>It's referencing The First Heretic
Which was where the rumour (emphasis on that) I was talking about came from. And all that part from TFH says is that the UMs received a large influx of recruits around the same time that whatever happened to the missing Legions happened. It never singled out the 11th Legion specifically.

Also, even one of the Word Bearers dismissed that as a baseless rumour in the book, so I wouldn't think much of it.

>Also it should be noted that the Word Bearers didn't "hate" the XIII legion, and the members that did were quietly purged by being sent to Calth.

?

I've never read anything about Calth being about purging the ranks, only about getting revenge, and diverting the UMs' attention from the Traitor Legions' advance towards Terra. Also, it's pretty obvious that the WBs have a huge grudge, to the point where the Traitor Legions supplement even gives them an artifact that lets them re-roll to wound rolls against Ultramarines.

>But that's wrong. We know russ and the wolves purged one
But where is the proof?

>I've never read anything about Calth being about purging the ranks
That's actually true, it's in some later book where Lorgar admits to Magnus (I think) that he used Calth to get rid of the most inefficient/least faithful elements of his legion.

He references it in thousand sons. It's not the first time he's done it.

That could mean anything.

I correct myself it's in the prospero burns book that it's mentioned it's not the first time the wolves were used as executioners for the emperor. In the outcast dead it is explicitly stated they were used to sanction other legions and primarchs.

It's heavily implied the spacewolves purged a legion.

Sanguinius said this when questioned why he didn't ask the Emperor for help with his gene seed defect
>You know the reason!" He answered with a snarl. "I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion's only memorial!"

Before the Wolves headed off to Prospero someone irrelevant bastard already called it. As soon as Magnus went overboard with magic he said it looks like the wolves will be loosed again. And during the battle a scholar-turned-skald said there's a first time for everything, that it was unprecedented to have space marines against space marines, and Russ just laughed and said this isn't a first.

So combined, Sanguinius knew what happened to the other legions

>It's heavily implied the spacewolves purged a legion.
Heavily implied, yes, but not outright stated. Besides, even with as heavy of implications as there exist, there are just as many implications that contradict those previously mentioned. Such is the nature of any and all information on the 2nd and 11th legions.

The only concrete information that isn't too heavily contradicted by anything is that:
-All the Primarchs were recovered during the Great Crusade
-Both lost Primarchs were recovered before Corax was found
-Both lost Primarchs were struck from Imperial Record and all remaining Primarchs were sworn to silence before Alpharius was found
-9 Primarchs had been gathered previously in a matter relating to the lost Legions and/or their Primarchs
-It's implied by Sanguinius that the reason he was so scared to reveal the Red Thirst to the Emperor was because he feared he and his Legion would be purged, leaving "third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as [his] Legion’s only memorial"
-Guilleman still includes his lost brothers in his preparations for the other legions as "their absence must be marked. Places must be left for them.That is simply honor"

On a semi-related note,
>In the Forge World book The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal, the Primarchs and their Legions are listed in a table with the names of the II and XI Legions and Primarchs blacked out only as far as the text concealed. The length of these black lines indicates that the name of the II Legion is quite long, only just shorter than "Emperor's Children" and the name of the XI Legion is about the same length as "Thousand Sons". The name of the II Primarch is approximately as long as "Alpharius" (also suggesting just a single name) and the name of the XI Primarch is about the same length as "Magnus the Red" (suggesting either two names or one with a title).
What do you guys think their names were? Both the Legions and the Primarchs. What do you think their symbols/colors were?

If i was to make a lost Primarch chapter. It would defiantly be a 2nd founding, where the ultramarine's that are from the lost foundlings (you know how the alpha legion let you know how they got at least a few thousand marines after one of them being "removed from history")

Have the chapter master be one of those marines who rose through the ranks, deliberately take as many of his original men with him as possible and found a new ultras/lost-primarch chapter.

I think we all know why the 11th Legion was purged...

What did you mean by this?

Malal's sacred number is 11, user.

Meant for Fits the "forgotten and the purged" part quite well, no?

>this is fact.

No this is heavily hinted at. Not confirmed!

The Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors were stated as being first founding 'chapters' but by the time 2nd ed came round they'd been demoted to later foundings.

>-Both lost Primarchs were recovered before Corax was found
>-Both lost Primarchs were struck from Imperial Record and all remaining Primarchs were sworn to silence before Alpharius was found
Wrong. You're getting that from Deliverance Lost but your interpretation was proved incorrect by both Gav and Goulding. The Emperor in his talk with Corax is not talking about the two missing primarchs. He is talking about the two primarchs that hadn't been found yet ie. missing primarch #2 and Alpharius. Corax is questioning why he is primarch #19 when he is the 18th found.

What we DO know is that all primarchs met each other at least once, meaning both primarchs were removed in the 20 years between Alpharius taking control of the Alpha Legion (not necessarily being found) and the Heresy.

>So combined, Sanguinius knew what happened to the other legions
All the Primarchs knew. They were sworn to silence on the matter by the Emperor. Based on what Horus thinks to himself in I think the second Heresy book about one of the Primarchs "never achieving the glories that he should", one of them might have barely even made it to his legion before getting purged.

Maybe one of the lost primarchs was already secretly corrupted by the time the Emperor found him, better to wipe him and his legion out before word of what chaos is gets out

>DO know is that all primarchs met each other at least once
I've not heard this, ever.

In other theories

Are about half of the Tempestus Scion regiments working for outside forces that arent the imperium?

You got the usual Alpha Legion sleeper cell here but then you got the Scions who miraculously have the greatest immune systems in the galaxy to the point Nurgle himself took notice and could quite possibly human infants blessed by Isha . And then you have another bunch who are specialized in hunter eldar to the point they dress up as necrons.

>Theories on the missing/deleted chapters/primarchs of the first founding?
lets just say (think pacifist) (think geneseed that can be implanted in anyone) (think didn't like the idea of the empire) (think female primarch)

theories can be anything for a "lost" primarch
and as they are cannon so you can make your own chapter with out fluff rules they can be anything

i made one (but didn't make the models) that had them come from ADULT humans and from both sexes --- it used space marine and guard rules and models together

What Russ said could also be a reference to the Night of the Wolf.

one was a blank, the other was xenos tolerant. both were purged.

Why the fuck has the Inquisition not noticed this.

This is a fucking gimme.

Goddammit you witch burning spergs stop jacking off to immolation porn and do your Emperor-damned jobs fuck

Both were destroyed for opposing the Emperor. One was found and raised by a xenos race, the other by artificial intelligences. The Emperor had them killed when they opposed his forces in an attempt to save their adoptive parents.

>Tempestus Scion regiments

Please son, the real mind fuck is that no one knows where most of the Space Marine chapters currently operating came from. The High Lords of Terra have never approved the founding of more that a couple of dozen per millennium, and many chapters have fallen. Yet, somehow, there are almost a thousand chapters active in the galaxy.

Yes yes, one is Rachnus Rageous and the other is Samus.

Fellow, anons, FUCK Black Library. Do you pay any attention to the the 40k/MLP crossovers on fanfiction.net? Because I put BLs shit in the same category. Just make up your own headcanon for the Lost Primarchs and go with that.

They work for the Cabal now.

>no, not the DEs

>It never singled out the 11th Legion specifically

Yes it was

>One of the Word Bearers dismissed that as a baseless rumour

he said it was rumor but it was said that everyone had their doubts about it being just rumor

Why would Russ reference The Night of the Wolf when it was erased from Imperial records? Russ was a very loyal son to the Emperor, even Gulliman admitted Russ "was loyal in ways that would shame us all"

To expand on this, Russ was very loyal to the Emperor, willing to heed his every word. He kept his legion based on Fenris because the Emperor wanted it so and even Angron or Lorgar said that Russ sought an "Alpha" to follow. Say what you want about him but he is the most loyal Primarch by far, to a fault at times.

That is creepy as fuck.

>most loyal
>not "loyalty is its own reward" Lion

>most loyal Primarch by far
>Not on Terra
>Even left to Terra to do nothing
>Left his brothers to die outnumbered and out-gunned
>most loyal Primarch

Where was this loyalty when the Emperor needed it?

The only solid leads I'm aware of is that one was purged for some sort of severe defect or mutation.

That said, there's so little concrete information and so many ways to bring them into the 41st millennium that it's better to just make up what you want.

For example, have a most the Legion be caught in a warp storm, with a small fraction flung through time and space to the fringes of the galaxy in the future.

Or, have them be purged for mutation, only for their geneseed to be tinkered with and used as part of the cursed founding.

>one was a blank
I've never liked this idea because each of the primarchs was supposed to embody a part of the Emperor's various aspects. A blank could never be part of the Emperor as he is the most 'un-blank' entity ever to exist. Also Russ is already the most non-psyker Primarch to exist.

>one was xenos tolerant
I like this idea. Adopted by hopeful Eldar always seemed like a dope ass background

I'm fairly sure a Blank Primarch is impossible. Not only did the Emperor invest a lot of warp energy and psychic power into creating each of them, but one Primarch, though I forget who, even remarks to a Blank that if they were to become an Astartes, the gene seed would give them a soul/cancel the Blank aspect.

How severe would the defect have to be for the legion to be purged if the flesh change of the Thousand Sons was tolerated?

Probably pretty significant. If I recall, this was mentioned while Sanguinius was musing about the Red Thirst, recalling what had happened to the last legion with such a terrible mutation.

Thus, it was something pretty debilitating like the Red Thirst, if not worse, and was also probably something even more frequent or outwardly obvious to the degree it couldn't be hidden.

Basically, look up some of the weirdness in the 21st founding, assume it has some crippling downsides to go with it, and that's a rough idea of what it must have been to be purged so quickly and thoroughly.

Sanguinius and Magnus were able to control their legions flaw, the flaw could have been in the primarch of the purged and probably made them prone to falling to chaos.

That was the twin sister femme-lesbian primarchs, they ran away to worship Slaanesh & do incesty stuff.
True fact, 200%.

Source, my good man? Google's just giving me Pinterest or Russian posts on Joyreactor.

I'm late as hell, but Lorgar did indeed hate Guilliman. Yes I read that book, Betrayer, but read Aurelian too.

Basically THE Lord of Change lets the reader know that Lorgar actually fucking hates Guilliman and is pissed off about Monarchia.

>Russ was the most non-psyker Primarch
Granted I've only read up to Prospero Burns so far, but didn't he do the same thing Magnus does where he increases his size like ten times when he fought Magnus? Am I just being retarded here? Also, he has a bunch of psykers in the form of rune priests. Pretty sure the Wolves stance on psykery is 'yeah use is as a tool, but don't be a fucking retard and go overboard like that red-skinned asshole.'

Im sorry I dont follow? Are you saying why would Russ mention NotW because it was redacted? If so why would he be referencing either of the missing legions because they were also deleted

Ive read that in older fluff (maybe still legit) that one was described as invisible and since no primarch was known for being invisible it was assumed that one was a blank.
Turns out it meant literally and it was talking about Corax and his ability to go undetected by the human eye.

The only real theories are that the legions either mutated into chaos spawn or were consorting with Xenos

Ill just leave this here.

Fuck off.

With love, from the 8th.

REEEEEEE Girls can't be primarchs!

Completely lost me with the tzneetch shit, lost me again when morph ball = flying monstrous creature, lost me a third time making her beams psychic powers.

BL fact is BS fact

2nd edition's Codex Imperialis (and probably other sources) described the Primarchs thusly:
>The Primarchs were practically indestructible and possessed warp-enhanced strength. They could scatter whole armies or even the daemonic creatures of the warp. Some had other powers which do not survive amongst the Space Marines at all, such as flight and invisibility.

I'm not sure the concept of blanks as we know them even existed until Codex: Assassins and the Culexus fluff (the term had been used to describe the Sensei in their first iteration, but its meaning was quite different to what it is now).

On the subject of the Lost Legions, here's a wall of text composed of stuff ADB said years ago:

heresy-online.net/forums/108-black-library-fiction/117166-adb-wolves-attacking-another-legion-6.html#post1297239

>Well, there's your answer. They weren't used to destroy any Legion. How is that even a debate? We know that's true.

>Option A
>The smallest Legion, whose Marines are actually no better at battle than any other Marines, believes itself to be the Emperor's "executioners". We, as readers and fans, know that Space Wolves are not better at killing other Marines than any other Marines, just as we know the Lost Legions have no official lore, and them being killed by another Legion is no more likely than any of the other urban legends about them in the series - especially seeing as there is no official story, and never will be. We also know that Russ has never, ever been given orders by the Emperor to kill another Legion - Horus deceived him into attacking Prospero, when his orders were to show an Imperial presence and arrest Magnus - who was, at the time, still known to the Emperor as being peaceful and full of regret. We also know the Wolves are not capable of killing another Legion outright, as they had Custodians, Sisters of Silence, and the Thousand Sons own fleet didn't oppose the Wolves. Indeed, neither did the whole city, until the very end.

Goddammit, first part of that was meant for And continued...

>Option B
>The Wolves are better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion because... they just are. They're the most savage, and suddenly the World Eaters aren't, despite 25 years of lore. They're the most fearsome, and suddenly the Night Lords aren't, despite 25 years of lore. All of the opinions of a couple of in-universe characters in Prospero Burns aren't clever, in-universe perspectives - they're Dan Abnett directly telling people that the Wolves now replace two other Legions' main themes, and are literally the best at killing other Marines. The Wolves killed two Legions in the past, easily enough (and losing so few men) to still be a Legion about the same size as the other smaller Legions, despite the fact no one at GW is allowed to say what happened to the Lost Legions, and any references are nothing more than possibilities and cheeky in-jokes.

[...]

> Ironically, I'm the one who's gone on record saying reasons why other Legions aren't suitable for it, and I've similarly reinforced the possibility that the Wolves are the executioners, whether it's self-appointed or not. But, seriously, it's not a sin to dwell in some doubt, especially when the evidence is wildly against the Wolves.

heresy-online.net/forums/108-black-library-fiction/117166-adb-wolves-attacking-another-legion-7.html#post1297356

>No, I agree; it's definitely one of the reasons it's a possibility. But that's the story. The fact it's a possibility. Not that it's 100% true. All the references are in-universe, or a three-second moment of grinning, fun marketing. We know - all of us should - that the Wolves are not better at fighting Marines than any other Legion. That's not even a ebate, really. Whether they were still executioners or not is what's interesting, and at no point do I say they're not. Quite the opposite; I like the idea of the Wolves really acting that way, mandated or not.

>People are confusing the fact I'm pointing out a difference between the IP's reality and the in-universe opinion as me somehow disparaging the Wolves. If I was wholly against the idea, the opening quotes to Betrayer - on my blog and this forum - wouldn't be reinforcing the idea the Wolves were the best for the job, and that the World Eaters would be terrible at it. I even hinted in Aurelian, in a vision, that the Wolves almost marched against the Word Bearers when Lorgar was censured. So I'm clearly not against the idea. I've done as much as anyone to reinforce it.

>But this is in-universe perspective. It's unreliable narrators. It's not me and Dan saying The Lore. It's not my job to prove the Wolves aren't better at fighting other Marines than any other Marines. The lore already says they're not, despite a few in-character references here and there. You can take any Legion and use their special trick and theme as "the reason they're the best to kill other Marines". The difference is, people are taking by far the most popular Legion's hints as true, and all the others as false.

[...]

>This has come up a thousand times and more. They're vague references as easter eggs - people are choosing to insist they must mean the Lost Legions. We've all been saying since Day 1 that the Lost Legions and their fates will never, ever be detailed or revealed. Why would Dan then say "Oh, by the way, the Wolves killed them"?

bolterandchainsword.com/topic/219161-the-space-wolves-and-other-legions/page-2#entry2619204

>If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

>EDIT:

>Let's compare.

>You have a Space Wolf categorically saying that his Legion has punished other Legions before, in that such an event "is not unprecedented" in Prospero Burns. I can completely see why readers will attribute that to the Lost Legions.

>But the Word Bearers in The First Heretic are plainly saying it's just a rumour that would explain the Ultramarines' insane size, and they suspect it might be true. They have no evidence. It's a possibility, but I was careful not to make it a statement.

You're memeing and I'm listing facts

>Also Russ is already the most non-psyker Primarch to exist

False. Russ was incredibly psychic, his howl alone on Shrike wiped out a fuck ton of Thousand Sons with the survivors freaking out because it was such a powerful psychic event

>Basically THE Lord of Change lets the reader know that Lorgar actually fucking hates Guilliman and is pissed off about Monarchia.

you mean the lord of change that tells one lie and one truth through each head? real reliable source