When and why have tabletop RPGs started to take a downturn?

What, no "90s"?

I can tell you that it's probably the other way around, tabletop RPG like DnD has never had a base in my country and people only knew it existed through american tv shows depicting it as the ultimate nerd hobby.

yet recently, more and more people are gettin into it, started with groups playing at local GWs and then snowballed from there, what's insanely popular is playing over skype or teamspeak since the playbase is still few and far between, though I have been aproached from people in my own circle I'd have neer expected to play tabletop rpgs just a while ago.

Don't know how it is in America, but it certainly gained a foothold in europe.

If I had to pick products that damaged the RPG community I'd go with:
>AD&D 1e, which was the first concerted corporate push to tell people that there was a "right" and "wrong" way to play D&D
>AD&D 2e and oWoD which both pushed YOU NEED THIS SPLAT product line really hard and set bad examples for publishers
>3e and the OGL, both because of how many publishers sold out (White Wolf, Guardians of Order, etc.) and because of the expectations in created in the playerbase regarding how hard it is to learn RPGs and that the d20 can run LITERALLY ANYTHING
>Pathfinder, because it continues the 3.5 cycle

>If you like women you must do everything with them
I know that for nu-males raised by single mothers it's difficult to understand, but when our fathers and grandfathers went to the bar way back in the day they didn't take their wives. They just left and said around what time they'd be back. And their wives were okay with this, because they also had their girly meet-ups.

Men and women are different, and single gendered groups will always be different from mixed groups. Sometimes men want to do things with other men and sometimes women want to do things with other women. This is completely normal, and only those with a hidden agenda would disagree or call this sexist.

>implying there's something inherently gendered in RPGs and wargames

I started with D&D 3.5. Each passing year has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby. You can't beat 3.5 for Shit that's Popular.

Except that isn't the point he was quite reasonably mocking.

The original poster implied that women participating in TTRPGs at all was a bad thing.

I don't give a fuck about what you personally like to do. Play with guys, play with girls, play with mixed groups, whatever.

But the notion that the hobby as a whole containing a diverse mix of players is in any way a bad thing is laughable, and deserves to be ridiculed.

But bars suck. It's just a bunch of loser capitalist fogies complaining about young people. It's awful.

Exactly. The best players I've ever had have all been females. It isn't fair to my other male players. Much better to keep them separated.

>83 when the D&D hype train died out
Wasn't Mentzer Basic the best-selling D&D product ever?

No? Every D&D edition has outsold its predecessors.

Saying that, the market has also gotten bigger each and every time, so comparing D&D sales as a portion of market share rather than on their own might produce some different results.

>loser capitalist fogies
>there are retards who will bite this

Who's this semen demon?

>No? Every D&D edition has outsold its predecessors.
That's the same kind of logic that leads people to make fallacious statement like "the average middle classer today is richer than the greatest kings of Europe three hundred years ago."

Let me guess...Underage or can't hold either your liquor or the center of attention in a discussion?

Read the whole post before replying next time.

That line is not logic or interpretation, it is a statement of fact. And immediately afterwards I comment that it is not exactly the most meaningful fact given the context around it.

Not him, but no. Bars just suck.

Pubs? Pubs are awesome. Bars are trash.

No, just an honest, upstanding communist dedicated to destroying capitalism and liberating the people.

Henriette d'Orleans?

>That's the same kind of logic that leads people to make fallacious statement like "the average middle classer today is richer than the greatest kings of Europe three hundred years ago."

That's not a fallacious statement considering that your average middle class people enjoy better living standards and luxuries than that of the greatest kings of Europe three hundred years ago.

In other words, someone who desires oppression.

god forbid you're forced to interact with females. All we've got left as men is cars, golf, basketball, baseball, football, chess, woodworking, hockey, wargames, hunting, fishing, bowling, pool, paintball, and programming, and bushido. How many of our hobbies must fall to the vagina before we resist this influx of estrogen?

Uh, who gives a shit? Find a game you like, or several, and run them. Unless you're living with literal wolves, it isn't hard to find players or even normies to drag into the fold.

You also don't have to play new, "fad" systems or whatever. All the old RPG material that exists is still as functional as when it was written, and many of those older games have new followings now that make it easier to get a group together.

Shit, I've played 30 or even 40 different games including a few of the "newbloods" to come out lately, but I've been running some form GURPS for the past 15 years basically continuously and I've literally never had problems getting people to play with, regardless of what style of game I was running or experimenting with.

Find your fun. Decide how/what you want to play, pick a game and pressgang a few people you like, sit down, and roll some fucking dice.

The only way this hobby can "downturn" is if it dies out completely, and that's never going to happen. Tabletop roleplaying is as popular, published, and widely recognized as it ever has been. And it's still on the upswing.

Be glad there's variety. That means everyone gets what they want. The fact that we can bitch about systems, playstyles, genres, and GM/player attitudes all day every day on this board (and many others) without people ever getting bored of it is a positive omen, as obnoxious as those can be.

tl;dr
>Quit complaining, find your fun. Decide how/what you want to play, pick a game and pressgang a few people you like, sit down together, and roll some fucking dice.

You would say that, swine!

That's exactly the fallacy. Rich=/=living standards and luxuries. Middle classers today don't hold a candle to the riches of 18th century kings, it's just that far, far, far, far, far, far, far less money today buys a far greater quality of life (of course, depending on your exact definition of quality of life).

>but user how could I have fun knowing my hobby is threatened by Jews and feminists, think of our children

I didn't imply that, where the fuck did you get that idea?

>If you have ONE FUCKING THING you don't want to do with women then suddenly you don't interact with women at all. Do you even think before you type? What kind of hypothetical non-human doesn't interact with women at all? The kind who was abandoned in a cave by his mother and somehow fucking created a self-sustaining source of electricity and a computer out of twigs and stones so he can order food from a company that only uses male employees, paying them with the money he doesn't have?

In areas where i grew up, communists were killed on a regular basis. KKK and all that didn't mean shit since they knew well enough not to bother us.

>What kind of hypothetical non-human doesn't interact with women at all?

/r9k/ is full of them. Return to your people!

In the area where I grew up, we hunted and ate travelers with money to punish them for participating in the market.

Honest question, what do you get out of an all male gaming group that you can't get if women are there?.

Safety from cooties?

I bet you he's gonna say some shit about how women "change the dynamic" and oh, everyone starts trying to impress her, and oh my, she starts "demanding attention" or something like that. As if you can't all just hang out like normal human beings.

>implying there's a proper fa/tg/uy who doesn't think they're on one
On the contrary, this (2006-present) is a golden age of RPGs. For the first time since 1978 there's an appreciable amount of content being made for the best playstyle instead of a bunch of disordered, incoherent clones of clones of clones.
Ride or die, OSR for life

...

>Every D&D edition has outsold its predecessors.
>actually buying the flak machine's spin output this hard

That's an extremely alternative fact you've got there, kid. Whoever told you that was just flat out lying. Mentzer Basic really is the best-selling individual D&D product of all time.

>the middle of a renaissance.
>There are more games and more players in the hobby now than there ever have been before.

It's not a renaissance. It's gentrification. The scene is being mainstreamed, casualized, shat up by plebs. This isn't a 'renaissance', a rebirth. It's the start of the end. Games will get plebbed-down more and more until even normalfags get sick of them, and then it'll be dead and we'll all turn to vidya.

Increased numbers of female gamers are a symptom, not a cause. There have always being some legit femnerds, but the fake nerd girls (and some fake nerd guys) only come because tabletop RPGs have less stigma than they used to. The more girls you find in the hobby, the more it's been mainstreamed. If RPG makers RIGHT NOW suddenly went back to the good old days then you'd see fake nerds evaporate within a couple of years.

The good old days where when you were stigmatized?

>It's gentrification.
It's... people with more money fairly buying up shitholes due to the land they're on becoming more attractive, and then fixing them up far beyond the previous standard?

What's supposed to be bad about that?

The same thing women get out of their women only gyms, women only nights in swimming pools, lady's night in casino's... gee, it's almost like it's only a problem when men do it.

Long story short, a sense of brotherhood (or sisterhood, if we're talking about women) you don't get when with the other gender. It all makes perfect sense once we make the radical assumption that both genders are inherrently different and secondary/tertiary gender traits aren't fluid or social constructs.

This is why some women are called "one of the boys": they are by their very definition highly exceptional and not the norm. And even then I'd say they're still quite girly by virtue of being... well, girls.

The hypocritical assumption that is made by the critics of these obvious facts is that because you don't want to do every single thing with women, you utterly avoid them. Let me tell you something: to anyone who didn't come out of a test tube and who regularly goes outside, avoiding women is as easy as avoiding raindrops in a downpour.

>Games will get plebbed-down more and more until even normalfags get sick of them, and then it'll be dead and we'll all turn to vidya.
Yes, because the main trend in the RPG world right now isn't still far and away the OSR, the groggiest possible nard in gaming.

>a sense of brotherhood

If you want brotherhood you should take up an actually masculine hobby like fishing, hunting, camping, etc. Setting around a table pretending to be elves doesn't build brotherhood.

>The same thing women get out of their women only gyms, women only nights in swimming pools, lady's night in casino's

Not hit on or harassed by strange men?

I dunno, I have played with both all-male groups and mixed groups and haven't noticed any difference. Can you give some sort of concrete example instead of throwing around vague terms like " secondary/tertiary gender traits" and "sense of brotherhood"?

>a bunch of disordered, incoherent clones of clones of clones.
>not an accurate description of the OSR

>not a renaissance
>not nerdy enough like old days
>OSR is booming

No women allowed!

The biggest reason this is stupid is that it doesn't even make sense.

Sure, a lot of people are in the hobby doing things you might not personally enjoy. But the hobby is getting so damn large at this point that the portion you enjoy is getting bigger no matter what. It might be a smaller slice of the overall pie, but it's still more potential players whose interests align with yours.

I'm legit curious here. Explain to me the concept of "fake nerds". Who are they, what do they do and exactly why?

The things you listed for women only are more for creating space at all that women can do things men do all the time.

I get what you mean by a sense of special group membership though. Its a policy of exclusion and elitism based on arbitrary measures. Like, you can want those if you want, its an odd choice for someone who seems to feel so alienated though.

Where do you live that you have a hard time avoiding women? Or what about women do you want to avoid?

>When and why have tabletop RPGs started to take a downturn?

You have brain problems if you mistaken rich for anything other than living standard.

...

Can everyone interested in this gender war bullshit in any capacity fuck off to ?

Talk games, not demographics.

They are directly related to each other

OP asked:
>When and why have tabletop RPGs started to take a downturn?

numerous posters replied with their, asked for, opinions. Which is generally:
>Women, and wider exposure to the public in general.

No one asked for what your shitty fucking opinion is so how about you fuck off to /mlp/ faggot

>I get what you mean by a sense of special group membership though. Its a policy of exclusion and elitism based on arbitrary measures. Like, you can want those if you want, its an odd choice for someone who seems to feel so alienated though.

It's just hollow tribalism. People who can't rise above that are not worthy of consideration.

Understanding what someone is doing is not the same thing as agreeing with it. I'm more interested in why though, and how this related to gaming.

>I don't like women in my tabletop games
You: "That's just hollow tribalism."

I don't like men in my sexual experiences.
Is that hollow tribalism too? Fuck off. You are making it tribalism when you declare it so. There's no need to place a fucking term on people doing what they like with the people they like to do those things with and not doings things they like with people they don't like to do those things with... God, you dense motherfuckers.

They pretend to be smart creative people who know a lot about a given subject but all they really do is play video games and whine about girls and "normies" all the time.

>numerous
like 2 or 3

How does this relate to RPGs somehow being on a decline?

>I don't like men in my sexual experiences.
>Is that hollow tribalism too?

Do you use your genitalia to play RPGs?

((((gentrification))))) would imply there's some kind of zero sum on RPG players and that somehow RPGs you don't like being played by people you don't like physically limits you and your friends from playing.

I've known a lot of legitimate nerds. I would never have considered any of them to be 'creative people', I would seriously hesitate to call them smart. I consider them extremely knowledgeable about a limited number of areas. Most of those are not creative on those topics, they are obsessive.

that sounds like real nerds to me

Yes, I deeply roleplay.

I once spent a whole month in the woods being arrogant before creating an elf ranger.

>btw your point is moot. For the purposes of the analogy the differences of the two scenarios is not relevant

Tabletop RPGs are about having fun with your friends, so if they're on a downturn it's because all your former gaming buddies decided to do something else with their time.

I know this has mostly been in the context of RPGs, but now is also a really bitching time for tabletop wargames.

GW lost their deathgrip on the market and there's a shit ton of good games with active communities to scratch your itches, and even the generic systems these days are pretty nice as well.

I mean if you guys want to keep having the exact same argument about woman playing Veeky Forums games that's fine too. Most women don't give a shit about Veeky Forums games either, and those that roleplay tend to do freeform online.

Not gonna lie, yes. The only times I ever seduced character's in a game was when I fucked the players too

The storywriting has a taken a turn downhill, but that's hardly exclusive to tabletop RPG's. It's more a symptom of the current social climate, where mediocrity is glorified and only what's loud is considered popular and good. Yes, the new stuff has fluffy bits riddled with feminism and minorities, but that's simply because the creators think it'll sell better if they write for the larger crowd. At the end of the day it doesn't matter - if you don't like it, just don't put it in your game. Unlike video games, you have the freedom of control, and always will.

If anything, though, the mechanics are being improved, and more content is being released, which is never a bad thing as you can simply discard what you don't like.

As for normies and women, if you're playing with strangers you're doing it wrong to begin with. That sort of thing is designed specifically so people can /try/ tabletop games. Some of them may get into it, some won't, but if you've a problem with it, then play with friends who share your opinions.

That's my two cents, at least.

You're about two centuries early there.

eves-rib.deviantart.com/art/French-cuirassier-379690034
it's dA fanart of pic related. Disgusting.

Must be a generational difference, I grew up in the 80s. Nerds used to be the smart kids, the guys who could build stuff or do stuff or help you with stuff.
Now I guess they're just lazy spiteful unsocialized consumers of mass media. What we used to call "dorks" -- IE all the lousy social skills, but with none of the talent or brains of the nerds.

What is the difference? I thought they were synonymous.

>saw the thumbnail
>didn't notice a difference
Do all French men look like cute girls from a distance?

Aside, the artist likely got the idea from the picture of the Prussian princess wearing a life hussar uniform. I don't mind - cute girls in cute uniforms is a double win. At least it's better than modern art.

>Nerds used to be the smart kids, the guys who could build stuff or do stuff or help you with stuff.

Grew up in the 90's here. I used to think about nerds that way, and to be fair it's pretty applicable to the nerds I actually know. But ever since I came into contact with the internet it's been clear that nerds are, just like everyone else, mostly shitty people.

maybe, I grew up in the 90s

I think a pub is like a café but with beer instead of coffee. You can buy small meals there and stuff. I think, I've never been to Britain and I don't really drink beer in general.

Of course this is bait, but for the sake of the trips I'll answer it seriously: the retroclones in the OSR are firstly, excuses to publish new modules for the original games first and foremost, and secondly, take pains to not become incoherent. When user says incoherent and disordered, he's thinking of things like D&D begetting Runequest, which had lost D&D's incentive structures and thus become effectively unplayable by someone who didn't start with D&D, then Runequest begetting other systems by inspiration which didn't even understand what Runequest really was, those systems then producing their own imitators and so on until we ended up with dogshit like GURPS where you can nominally stat out everything but not play out anything at all, or WoD where the rules are just a gigantic creaky heap of shit that falls apart with every other die roll because "the story is more important, uwaah". This happened because the creators of all those systems don't actually understand what a roleplaying game really is or how it's made to work, which led to the OSR (as well as to the storygames movement which noticed the exact same issues and went for a different solution).

this. Asking when and why RPGs have taken a downturn is like asking when and why cooking has taken a downturn. The general culture around it has almost no impact on how and what you do own your own.

I thought men and women were the same.

My 2 cents:
Pub: a place were you can buy alcohol and hang out and talk to with people.
Club: a place were you can buy alcohol that also includes dancefloors and very loud music.
Bar: General-purpose term that can mean either Pub or Club.

>Of course this is bait
It's nice you put that right up front, instead of making people read the whole wall of text to work that out.

>impact font meme
Ironic

>Do all French men look like cute girls from a distance?
Maybe it's just a cuirassier thing.

As a colonial, this is fairly accurate. Maybe the motherland has changed it's pubs but here in Australia pubs also serve meals (usually dinners) and often have local entertainment like bands.

Bars exist solely so people too old for nightclubs can still be drunken degenerates.

>But ever since I came into contact with the internet it's been clear that nerds are, just like everyone else, mostly shitty people.

Not if we subscribe to the asshat's theory of "fake nerds," then we can just arbitrarily decide that all the shitty people are just calling themselves "nerds" for the social cachet. Which actually makes more sense to do for a bunch of worthless dorks that no one will ever love than it does for your average "chad" or girl.

Morally and ethically they should be equal, but that's not the same thing as men and women being "the same."

This is pretty much accurate to Britain and what I've seen of the continent, too.

...

Someone sounds like their skin has reached its limit.

There is no such saying as, "the best offense is a good defense."

That one...that one I legitimately can't tell.

You didn't find that offensive? 'Cause it was intended to be.