Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General thread.
>Links - Includes a list of OSR games, a wiki, scenarios, free RPGs, a vast Trove of treasure!
pastebin.com
>Discord Server - Live design help, game finder, etc.
discord.gg
>OSR Blog List - Help contribute by suggesting more.
pastebin.com
>Webtools - Help contribute by suggesting more.
pastebin.com
>Previous thread:
THREAD QUESTION:
>What system are you playing right now? How's it working for you?
Other urls found in this thread:
books.google.nl
boards.fireden.net
twitter.com
...
...
Asking again, for more answers:
Which OSR systems have the crunchiest combat systems? Something with enough options to make combat more tactical while still being OSR-fast.
Alright so I'm revamping my gun-creation system here in Garden.
Ignore the rest of the doc, I'm going to be rewriting most of it soon. But as of right now, I want to basically change the gun rules so bullets, shells, cartridges, and any other types of munitions are separate from their 'receiver' category as a part. However part of this problem is that, to balance the game, i don't want shotguns to have massive clip sizes.
Currently my ideal solution would be something like a multiplier system. Basically imagine something like a drum magazine style receiver has 6 base capacity and then you add in the munitions;
>Bullets x5
>Shells x1.5
>Cartridges x1
How does this work as a solution? I think it's alright but kind of weak. Any more elegant solutions someone can help me with?
ACKs maybe. It has feats and the like.
Do you have an example of another game with mechanics you liked? Shouldn't be difficult to bolt on extended combat options and moves and that kind of thing.
No OSR examples that I can think of. I like LotfP's options for some martial classes of attacking "defensively" or "offensively". I like having these little options to spice up combat, so things don't devolve to "I roll to attack."
I'm intersted in OSR, but how the hell am I to find the right rules for good old high fantasy?
I like black hack because it gets rid of saving throws and uses stats instead. I ilke the armor rules and combat mechanic (player rolls to hit or to evade, creatures don't)
But it's rather vague on other things and I'd like a better magic system.
Can someone recommend me a similar system, so I can read up a little?
You'll have to make you own at this point. By the time you want to play a system that is mostly 'this other system, but with one thing changed' it's going to not exist, it's something you'll have to make.
If you want to do Black Hack and just cut and paste a different settings magic system, just do it.
Am currently working on a combat system inspired by Codex Martialis to be tacked onto OSR games.
That one should take the cake when it's out, I suppose. Still trying to keep it as simple as possible though.
What exactly are you looking for when it comes to magic systems?
Thats exactly what I wanted to avoid. Well maybe someone can point me in a general direction. Meanwhile I'll leaf through other systems.
Actually I only dislike vancian. So I'm generally just looking around for something a little more flexible like D6 Magic (though nohting so complex). Otherwise a little more flavour like WFRP2e would do the trick I think.
How do you handle wandering monsters when the party decides to sleep in the dungeon?
What if they're in a fortified/secret location?
If one were attempting to pare down the amount of things to keep track of on the character sheet whilst still maintaining an oldschool D&D feel would it be better to:
a) eliminate ability scores and shift the modifiers onto the individual things they modify.
b) eliminate as many of the other things as possible and fold as much into ability checks as possible.
Option one would be fairly simple to do, especially if you consolidated other parts of the sheet like using the single saving throw Swords & Wizardry uses.
Option two is pretty much The Black Hack.
Ruleslawyers:
How to handle Sleep in BX? The combat example says something about allies trying to get out of the AoE, but the spell lists none - only a 240' range, duration and HD of creatures affected.
A is better. Ability checks aren't made to handle all that weight, but if you look at OD&D (the simplest system, pretty much) abilities are barely used. You could easily just pull them out.
I would argue that a big part of the "feel" of D&D is rolling ability scores and saying things like "I have a 17 strength!"
some stuff I strongly associate with playing D&D specifically, off the top of my head:
STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA.
Rolling 3d6 or 4d6 (drop lowest) to determine those scores.
Saving throws.
Race-as-Class.
gp-for-xp.
Turn undead.
Vancian magic.
Hit Dice and stat blocks.
Rolling d20's, 12's, 10's, 8's, 6's and 4's.
10ft poles and adventuring gear.
And probably more stuff.
The more of those things you remove, the further away from D&D you get. Which isn't a bad thing. Just undesirable in the thought experiment of distilling oldschool D&D to just the elements that make it playable and recognisable as D&D.
as an added thought; most straightforward retroclones still feel like D&D, despite their tweaks. LotFP, S&W, LL, etc. They didn't change much of the core stuff.
But when I see rules-lite(r) OSR-friendly stuff like black hack, maze rats, into the odd, beyond the wall, etc. They no longer remind me of D&D. More like...Advanced Fighting Fantasy.
Have you looked at Wonder & Wickedness? It does interesting alternative approaches to magic. Tricky thing about vancian is it adds resource management to magic which many consider essential. Being able to constantly cast changes a lot of how dungeon exploration works. Not saying don't do it, but its going to make things notably different. What about vancian gets your goat?
>What if they're in a fortified/secret location?
Dice as normal, but some 'encounters' don't result in fights.
Found it in the old thread, but thanks for pointing it out. Really great stuff in there.
Vancian just hasnt got the right feeling for me anymore. You have your spell lists an thats that. I think there has to be a resource management but there are other ways to do it I prefer. I also found DCC and I think spellburn and corruption are great additions as well.
I let my player pick a target and go out by HD affected from there starting with the closest thing that can be put to sleep. The monsters are usually pretty close together so it hasn't gotten weird and jumped an overly large seeming distance. If I had to I'd go 15ft+5 per level from the centre, but that's off the top of my head.
>a big part of the "feel" of D&D is rolling ability scores and...
Referees used to roll *all* the dice. Behind their full-body, face-concealing screen.
Are people still looking for the cc1 creature compendium? I habe it and can upload it later
I wonder if people were lamenting that D&D was turning into storygame bullshit and making the DM's role flaccid and meaningless when players first started being allowed to roll stuff.
Whats a good clone if I want to play a one-shot with my normie friends that will never read a book? My greatest problem is the magic system, I just can't find something simpler than vancian. I know I could make everyone be a fighter or a rogue, but I want some variety
Steal a spell list from anything and you're done.
Okay, sorry. I was being flippant. Its a bit more complicated than that but not much.
Its a 1 shot so you're not going to level much, so the spells don't have to be complicated.
They don't like to read so having 1 page of rules is a good idea.
Take the spell list from b/x for level 1 spells, copy them onto index cards as scrolls and hand them out at random to the players. Everyone starts with 1 scroll. Take the rest and level 2-3 spells to use as treasure.
Take the items/gear list or copy one onto another index card, let everyone pick 3 things. That's gear.
Ask everyone to make up 1 cool detail about their character.
Tell them the more creative description they give of what they're doing the more you'll have to work with.
Run them through B4.
There we go.
Is SWN welcome here? I'm getting a campaign ready. We wont be able to roll characters for another week or two due to scheduling issues so in the meantime I'm generating planets and mapping the ship they'll start with.
>Is SWN welcome here?
It's LITERALLY D&D in space so it should be unless the grogs are feeling extra autistic.
>Dice as normal
But every second turn still?
That's at least 20 checks.
Did you make this? I demand more.
>How do you handle wandering monsters when the party decides to sleep in the dungeon?
They get murdered.
Seriously, how would you handle a group of soldiers deciding to sleep in an underground Viet Cong base they hadn't remotely cleared out? It's fuck city. It's impossible and a retarded idea.
If it's just a small like ten-room lair that they cleared out and want to stay in before moving on in the wilderness, of course, that's different. That probably just nets them a bonus to avoid night encounters since they've found a secure lair to sleep in, unless some of the hobgoblins or whatever were out on an expedition and returning home.
Yep! In google sketchup, it's pretty fast once you get the hang of it. I started with a floor plan I found through some googling and watched some tutorials. Sketchup has a library of models you can drop into your mock up so filling the ship with furniture and cargo was pretty simple.
Then I just exported the plain models as jpegs, threw them into PS, put a blue overlay layer on top, and added text/arrows.
Working on the second deck now.
What if it's the opposite, and it's a huge megadungeon?
Even if there's plenty of foot traffic throughout the night, are monsters really going to check every room (particularly secret rooms), or are they just travelling from A to B?
I feel like this would bring up other issues too. I'm not too fussed about ecology in a fantasy dungeon, but if some wandering ghouls stopped to eat the PCs in room 37, why haven't any ghouls bothered to eat the giant rats in room 19? Or the dead adventurers in room 14 if human flesh is more to their taste.
>le fantasy fucking vietnam meme
dumb grog
>referencing that bizarre anecdote about Gygax hiding behind the filing cabinet
I'm pretty sure that one's a joke/apocryphal.
I think there's a rule in Moldvay/Cook about reducing the number of checks if the party's not moving or something.
I would reduce it to a check per hour if they're holed up somewhere reasonably out-of-the-way. If they hid out in a secret room that had unlooted treasure, I'd probably eliminate the check -- if the room was unlooted, clearly the monsters didn't know it was there.
Easy. If they're in a small room and barricaded the only way in and out, and there are no secret doors into that place, and no ethereal undead or slimes which can just slip in under the door or whatnot, then they should be fine. Maybe a small chance something beastly smells them and starts pounding or scratching at the door, but they should have plenty of time to react to that.
If the situation is not the above, and they keep watch then there's a chance they might not get fucked (but anyone besides the watchman is probably surprised, caught without armor, without benefits of that rest, and so on). If the watchman fucks up then their shit is definitely fucked and they essentially just have their throats slit while they sleep, or paralyzed by ghouls and then eaten, etc.
You don't have to do it every second turn, as they're not walking around, waving torches, making noise, and leaving tracks and their scent everywhere. Three checks for the whole night is fine, corresponding to three watches by possibly three different people.
>What if it's the opposite, and it's a huge megadungeon?
My answer was assuming megadungeon.
>are monsters really going to check every room (particularly secret rooms), or are they just travelling from A to B?
Well, you could roll 48 individual random encounter checks to determine this. Or you could not, and just realize it's fuck city and skip to the part where the players roll new characters.
More specifically, I don't think the monsters are "checking every room" like they expect there to be adventurers there and they're the search patrol, they just pass through going wherever, or they smell the blood of an Englishman, or the PCs happened to camp in the living room, or they... you get the idea. There's also no reason to think secret doors are unknown to the local monsters, and I normally assume the opposite. These are the inhabitants, they'll have found most of that shit by now.
>I feel like this would bring up other issues too.
Without meaning any offense, I think you need to reconsider what counts as being fussed about dungeon ecology. That said, some obvious answers could be:
>the rats scatter when threatened by the ghouls, whom they fear
>on the contrary, the rats are too dense to tell the difference between dead and undead and will immediately start eating the ghouls with no regard for their own safety
>the ghouls eat only human flesh (this is the original definition AFAIK, a cannibal who's become warped into a horrible monster by his abominable appetites)
>only fresh meat will do
>the ghouls DID kill the dead adventurers and eat the parts they liked, and the PCs are next
I mean, for my part, when/if I care about these things I don't generally have corpses just lie around untouched in the dungeon by scavengers, they'll typically be skeletons, or the recent dead being devoured even now, or hung on meathooks in the bugbears' larder or something. Specifically because it's weird that they'd just lie there unconsumed by monsters or vermin.
>secret location
If you roll something that can't detect the PCs, it doesn't fight them.
But tell whoever's keeping watch that it's nearby.
>fortified location
If you roll something that can't reach the PCs, it doesn't fight them.
But it might bash on the door until it gets bored (waking everyone up), or try to negotiate with the PCs, or call for reinforcements.
>That's at least 20 checks.
Lo and behold! Sleeping in dungeons is a bad idea!
Does anyone have pic related? Is it any good?
>That's at least 20 checks.
>Lo and behold! Sleeping in dungeons is a bad idea!
This, for real. That's the *entire point*, you should look at those 20+ checks and go "ah, fuck, this is a bad plan".
It's weird to me as a longtime grog that people apparently think of camping in the dungeon as so natural and obvious that they question the actual rules before they question the idea. There's tons of shit that's disincentivized by the game! This is what that looks like!
>Three checks for the whole night is fine,
While you're at it, add a roll on the Psionic Wandering Monster chart. In-case anything caught a whiff of their dreams.
>people apparently think of camping in the dungeon as so natural and obvious
I blame Final Fantasy.
Thanks guys, some fair points.
For what it's worth I'm thinking about areas of the dungeon that have gone unmolested by monsters (ancient treasures still lying around, layers of undisturbed dust, etc.). You do get those in a lot of dungeons and I feel like players should benefit from choosing such a sensible location, but of course there should still be the risk of monsters since you're sleeping in a dungeon.
I think I'll go with a few checks during sleep, perhaps reaction rolls depending on the monsters. Thanks again.
Every dungeon is different.
Factors that would be in their favor:
>bunking with a friendly faction/negotiating safe passage
>fortified or secret location
>keeping a strong watch or otherwise having enough force on hand that nobody wants to mess with you
>the place is big enough or abandoned enough that it's more like an underground wilderness (rather than an active lair).
Factors against:
>there are creatures haunting the place that they don't know about and can't defend against
>not keeping a watch (which probably means keeping a light source going all night)
>bunking down in an exposed location surrounded by unknown foes
For all the posters dismissing the idea out of hand, don't forget that in the Fellowship of the Ring (the book), the fellowship spends several days underground and makes camp in Moria. So at least there's literary precedent.
>If you roll something that can't reach the PCs, it doesn't fight them.
>But it might bash on the door until it gets bored (waking everyone up), or try to negotiate with the PCs, or call for reinforcements.
Another thing you could do here is have the creature simply wait in ambush outside the door. Then when the PCs come out in the morning, BAM, ceiling balrog falls on them.
Any OSR games that would be easy to run on Roll20? I want to start running something online, but I don't want to burn out by running something really dense on top of my regular game.
Pretty much any.
PROTIP: import a dungeon map as an image, use the Align to Grid tool, reveal parts using the fog of war feature.
Alternatively, do the same, keep it on the GM layer, ask the players to map using the drawing tools.
Check out the Old School Adventures series on the Roll20 YouTube, where they run Keep on the Borderlands (still sad Thracia didn't win).
Right, or they could wake up to a band of monsters with crossbows and spears that will let them go in exchange for all their food and weapons (they don't even care about treasure). Depending on the circumstances, it could be a good deal (if they trust the monsters).
I think that if every single adventure site is "fantasy vietnam" it gets stale. Taken to an extreme, it means there's no meaningful choices to make besides "fight" and "run away". Might as well play a videogame.
And it's a rather funny comparison considering 'nam was notorious for being a confusing quagmire of shifting alliances, instead of a straight on fight to retake allied territory.
Into the Odd is my favorite super light game (that's still technically cross compatible). It's got three ability scores and no classes. It's optimized for quick pick up and play (including a setting that's weird, but works fairly intuitively). The rulebook is pretty good, but the author's blog is fantastic.
>or they could wake up to a band of monsters...
Or the wake up geased, without knowing what they need to do.
This looks interesting as a B/X junkie. What is it?
>Right, or they could wake up to a band of monsters with crossbows and spears that will let them go in exchange for all their food and weapons (they don't even care about treasure).
Yeah, I agree. Everything doesn't have to be violence all the time (although it seems like it would be much more likely if the monsters got the PCs at their mercy, yet feared them waking up).
To be honest, I was just amused by the mental image of a balrog waiting patiently for the PCs to finish their nap, clinging to the ceiling like some huge flaming spider.
"B|X Fantasy Roleplay is the ultimate B/X emulator. Based on the 1981 B/X rules, edited by Tom Moldvay, Dave Cook, and Steve Marsh, this booklet consolidates the Basic and Expert Sets into one, easy-to-use booklet. So buy a backpack, light a torch, steady your steed, and wield the B|XFRP rules for an action-pack, exciting evening of fun and adventure, old-school style."
So, single volume D&D B/X. There is a preview available here: books.google.nl
Sell me on OSR games, I don't know much about them. Are they typically less bloated than modern ones?
>LITERALLY just an re-edit
>people charge money for this
>people PAY money for this
T$Rcucks are real
Character creation is generally simpler
Combat is more theater-of-the-mind
Very easy to drop in stuff from other TSR editions
Lots of free material
Easy to homebrew
If there is nothing new added I'll just play B/X I may be a TSR cuck but I don't pay for houserules unless they are cool as hell and come with good art.
So it's a single volume version, meaning I don't have to do stuff like explain to newbies every time that they should ignore the Moldvay rules on saves, and use the Cook saves instead, eh? Not bad.
Don't forget solid game structures regarding dungeon crawling, so you have tactical decisions to make at every step of the way, instead of just walking from one "combat encounter" to the next.
The oldest (and lightest weight) OSR is the Little Brown Books.
The referee needs a few extra rules, but here's every rule the players need:
>boards.fireden.net
The rest of OSR built up off that. Aside from AD&D, they didn't build very high.
It's literally B/X
Nothing new
A retroclone is nothing new by definition. However, it is the only single volume B/X clone, I think.
Labyrinth Lord is precisely that. Swords and Wizardry is close to it as well. Both distinguish themselves by offering new content (adventures and supplements). There's got to be dozens of retroclones that have fallen by the wayside since the early days that were just B/X with a new magic system, or B/X with some combat moves, or some new monsters.
Is it a good or bad omen for OSR that it's popular enough for this kind of cash grab to be worth somebody's time?
>Labyrinth Lord is precisely that.
No, not precisely that. LL makes a number of changes to B/X rules. Notably, giving clerics spells on level 1, which is a big change to early balance. There a some other small changes as well, so if you want to run straight B/X, you'll have to tell your players you're house ruling those things.
I think there's a reasonable niche for someone to make an OSRIC of B/X, taking the rules and cleaning them up to give them a nice, modern presentation, without mixing in anybody's houserules.
I've been working on my own clone of B/X for my players to make it easier for them to read the rules which will be both single volume and two/three volume (PHB, DMG, and MM, optionally MM + DMG in one), but I haven't had much time to work on it. Once it gets to a usable state, I'll consider posting it here.
Suggestions for a name are welcome.
Interesting! I will be keeping an eye out for that
There are too many games I want to play.
Should I just homebrew a frankenstein of all of them?
The games in question are:
B/X and specific rules from its clones.
Maze Rats.
Over the Wall.
Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Into the Odd.
Advanced Fighting Fantasy.
The Ancestral Trail (collectible illustrated childrens book series that included gaming elements).
Darkest Dungeon (videogame).
sorry, Beyond the Wall. Not Over the Wall.
Second time this mistake was made in two weeks xD I think this is what started the Americana Setting discussion.
just pick the one that looks most interesting to you and play it. if you dont have friends to play with, play solo with both one and a few pcs for a few levels. try prewritten adventures.
do this with all the games until you feel comfortable with each, and you'll maybe settle on one that just feels right, or a homebrew with the stuff you like from multiple systems.
Start with B/X (or Darkest Dungeon, if you intend to referee).
How would one introduce a sanity/stress mechanic that doesn't take away player agency (let them retain control, at least up to a certain point) AND doesn't put onerous roleplaying requirements on them (some players just don't want to roleplay making dumb decisions).
Make PCs check for morale. When they fail a morale check they eat a significant penalty (-1 AC, -1 to-hit, -1 on-hit, and +1 damage when hit?) until they can catch a breather.
Stressful events (poor diet, lack of sleep, psychic attacks, failing a morale check, etc.) give -1 to morale until you get all your shit together (1 week - 1 month of downtime).
I like that.
Also perhaps various ailments that make you cop different types of other penalties.
Like, instead of Kleptomania that says "you have to steal now"
you have Kleptomania that says "make a morale check any time you encounter treasure. A failed check means you must take it or suffer a penalty to ability/skill checks and saves for a day. The value of the stolen treasure does not count towards party xp."
So, first you get a chane to avoid having to do the dumb thing. Then you get a CHOICE to take the penalty for the greater good, or the party gets the choice of sacrificing to help the player out.
Do people in /osrg/ favor fantasy over other genres for the setting of their games?
Well, that is what D&D is best at.
Most of us favor it.
But regardless of the 'main' genre, /osrg/ likes separate genres bleeding in.
>But regardless of the 'main' genre, /osrg/ likes separate genres bleeding in.
Does fantasy bleed? It will!
But that would mean that we can kill it.
I only ask because I wasn't sure what setting genre to run my OSR game in is all.
It's best geared towards a sort of wild west post-apocalyptic fantasy. Think of a gold rush town on the frontier, except the gold comes out of ancient ruins from a lost golden age, and the prospectors are looneys who go down into those monster-infested murder holes and bring the forgotten riches back.
>/OSR/ is best geared towards....
kill yourself
>It is dark. You are likely to be Dream Eaten by a Baku.
We most surely are.
That would be neat, thanks!
Thinking about running a hexcrawl wilderness Campaign in the West Marches vein, maybe using OD&D. I'm going to make 6 mile hexes that can be divided into 1 mile smaller hexes and have very basic encounter tables for each hex or hex region (roll d20, 1-4 means goblins, 5-6 means ogres, 8-9 means DM action, you get the idea) and a motivation (roll d20, 1 want to eat humans, 2 want to steal loot, 3 fleeing from some other monster). I wouldn't really have wandering monsters, I'd just have one or two monsters tied to each area. I haven't tried hexcrawling before but I'm trying to get things going.
Also I'd have dungeons in some hexes. I would let the players clear it out if they could, but then it would get taken over by some other monster or bandits or a wizard or cult, or maybe the players could establish a fortress if they had sufficient money to hire guards and repairs, to create a sort of safe-haven for that square.
I need advice on how to better introduce my players to old school role playing after what just happened in my last session.
>first session introducing players to old school D&D using rules cyclopedia
>create characters, takes some time as the players are new to the system and we only have one rule book.
>1 fighter 1 cleric, small party
> start running keep on the borderlands
> players arrive in keep, ask around then set off to go and find the mad hermit.
> walk around in the woods for a bit, but they set off in the afternoon so night falls soon and they make camp.
> set off at dawn, I roll for random encounters.
>tuatara lizard
> describe to them how a giant lizard crosses their path several yards ahead of them but does not seem to have noticed them.
> players attack.
>me: are you sure?
>players:yes
> players attack, miss terribly in the surprise round.
> lizard wins initiative, attacks, takes them both down to 1 HP
> next round, players attack again, then the lizard kills them, even though I give them the chance to flee and make it clear they can do so.
> mfw, played for one hour before players die to a random encounter
Where did I go wrong?
You didn't have them make back up characters. Low level and half strength, they were never long for this world.
Have they played other D&D like substance before?
You had shitty/young/3e.PFbabby players.
You didn't, this is what can happen and it's part of the fun. For new players who are coming from modern RPGs or computer games it may take a while to see this.
That's great, now they've learned that they shouldn't attack stuff all willy nilly.
I hope they rolled new characters and kept playing?
not this user, but I've been planning to run my own hex crawl and have been trying to create a system of how random events/encounters happen (and even how to deal with movement)
So here is my current draft. Feel free to steal some of these ideas for yourself, and if you can think of any alterations or improvements to this, please say so.
for clarification. My game will use LotFP rules (the movement is based off its movement and encumberance rules), and the monster tables come from Basic Fantasy.
Any advice for a Space 1889\WFRP 2e/5e experienced DM running Stars Without Number for the first time to-morrow?
I have things laid out and know the rules, but the Old School RPG element seems a bit foreign. My campaigns are always highly sandbox, part of what turns me on about the system, but shrinking AC and 3 classes throw me for a loop. Specifically, good rules of thumb for this 2d6+skill system?
PS, 1 Psychic +1 Warrior + 1 ai (techie skills Voyager armiture to begin) in party, any pitfalls to avoid specific to such a combo?
Questions about Into the Odd. Is there supposed to be any interaction with NPCs/story or is it supposed to be played as a straight Dungeon crawl?
Ooh this looks neat.
My partner just gave me a copy of Outdoor Survival. That map
Related: a take on Blackmoor, because as we all know from reading ancient grog-tomes the original Blackmoor group moved south from their existing setting (based on a Dutch map) onto the Outdoor Survival one, where "exiles from Blackmoor set up shop after the bad scene at Lake Gloomy."