Who would win?

>Big E isn't sympathetic

ADB pls go and stay go

SLAMALS

I have this very wierd feeling like, Sigmar put emp's sword on the stove for a minute, and now emps picked it up and he's all like "Argh! the spicy keychain!" and Sigmar is like "I did it to my own brother!"

DOMINIQUE!

Big E, since he is much less SJW

AHHHH! SYLVANAS HELP ME!

Sigmar, he was actually a god, competent, not a corpse and not autistic

>Sigmar = Conan the Schwarzenegger
>Emperor = Conan the Spessbarbarian

Literary just two separate iterations of the same archetype character

Marbo

Well Sigmar is a primarch so...

Sigmar is not a primarch. Emprah is a Sigmarine.

The Old World was a mockery of Terra in the Eye of Terror.

This
Emps would win that battle, but Sigmar's followers would tear him apart afterwards.

>and the emperor isn't a moron
uuuuuuh

Black Library pls go.

Stormcast are basically immune to chaos and each one is a fucking Hero.

I'd say Sigmar is a better leader by far because he managed to Diplomance Mork and Gork.

I might even give a physical fight to Sigmar because he also wrestled with Mork and Gork too.

Emperor > Primarch

Sigmar
>Born into divinity
>God of smashing fools with a hammer
>Saved mankind because it was the right thing to do
>Created a proud Empire that grew even stronger over time
>Was defeated only by total Chaos apocalypse
>Survived the apocalypse and started rebuilding in a new world
>Superhuman army made from the greatest heroes of the Mortal Realms, totally incorruptible
>Friend of gods, dragons, dwarves, elves, as long as you're not Chaos you're cool

Emperor
>Got his powers in a shady deal with Chaos or something
>God of psychic mindtrick bullshit
>"Saved" mankind just so he could rule as an immortal dictator
>Created a cruel Imperium that was decaying from day one
>Defeated by one of his own idiot sons
>Turned into a vegetable to watch his work fall apart over the millenia
>Superhuman army made from kidnapped, brainwashed children, half of whom immediately joined Chaos
>Worst kind of fedora tipping atheist, total racist, weird ideas about women

AoS pls go

Even without the BL stuff, you have trouble escaping the conclusion that Emps is a moron.

>All right, I know I've got these super-warriors now, but lemme go make 20 generals to lead them, nevermind that I can start my expansion and do much of it without them anyway.
>Oh shit, Chaos yanked all of them away. Despite how I'll go on to deny the very EXISTENCE of Chaos because it's so intrinsically corrupting that nobody else can be trusted with that kind of info, I'll go and hunt for these guys, since I'm sure nothing bad could have happened to them.
>What's this? One of them is a fucking ax-crazy psychopath leading a doomed revolt and has literal spikes in his head? Better teleport him away and leave his men to die, since I'm sure he won't hold a grudge or anything.

Emps was a fucking retard. He's "Michael Bay movie villain" tier dumb.

>I'll simplify everything, that'll prove 'em!
BL pls go and stay go

Please explain, o learned user, as to how Emps decisions regarding the Primarchs, especially Angron, weren't completely bumfuck retarded.

>ok, I need to reunite humnaity
>it will take a fuckton of time with warp travel
>have to populate the command structure with people who will do their job and won't die for ~1k yers
>they get scattered, fuck
>ok, let's just launch the crusade and find them on the way, filling leadership spots with them
>they are actually pretty competent
>have a ton of free time now to empire build, not having to lead a lot of forces yourself
>give basic knowledge about the warp to all primarchs, they won't need more anyways
>angron is a mess, but he'll do his job for a while, guy isn't a schemer and won't cause any trouble on his own, and can be easily controlled. Going to replace him later anyway.
>Konrad is stellar at his job
>Lorgar is creating a religion that clashes with Imperial Truth that I've created, gotta deal with it
>Lorgar, pls stop doing it
>Lorgar pls
>Seriously Lorgar
>Okay fuck it, time for some quality spanking
>it works
>Lorgar being a fucking manchild listens to the yes-man Erebus and yes-man Kor and lets himself get manipulated
>shit happens

Could go on further, but my point is that everything's justified from Emp's perspective

>egotistical
>stubborn
>unempathic
>xenophobic
>delusional
>literally wrong about how to win
>still mired in stupid Anatolian Warlord mindset despite being an ageless immortal superbeing

No, he's pretty much impossible to sympathize unless you've been suckered in by in-story propaganda.

There was a lot of evidence that the emps would just fade into the background after the galaxy was united.

>>egoistical
>literally sacrifices himself to prevent Terra from becoming a new eye of terror.
>creates an empire to save humanity, because that's the only way

>>stubborn
>being stubborn about trying to save everyone is bad now

>>unempathic
>literally in the middle of saving everyone's ass, but considered unempathic because he's not some bleeding heart

>>xenophobic
>disliking xenos who either consider you trash or hate you is bad now

>>delusional
>considering that most people are not manchildren is being delusional now

>>literally wrong about how to win
>and yet Imperium is still alive and strong, ready to wreck chaos' collective ass, and kill armless failure for good

>>still mired in stupid Anatolian Warlord mindset despite being an ageless immortal superbeing
>being effective is stupid now

Also
>in-story propaganda.

ADB pls, did your dad melt all your toys while on a drunk?

>>have to populate the command structure with people who will do their job and won't die for ~1k yers

Why? Just have an officer corps, and replace them when they inevitably die of old age. I mean, it's not like they weren't going to do that with the imperial administration or the rest of the army.

>Could go on further, but my point is that everything's justified from Emp's perspective

Of course it is. That doesn't change the fact that Emps is a moron and his perspective doesn't mean much. Every retard thinks what they're doing is a good idea at the time.

don't insult feldom mommy you filthy orc cuckold

>Why?
You forget that Primarchs were superhumans with insane levels of int and wis, who got shit done on a mad scale. They were THE most competent people to do their job, and they did it splendidly. Even Angron was effective as fuck.

And then came BL and turned everyone into a fucking manchild, which turned the concept of primarchs on it's head. Horus Heresy series was a mistake.

>You forget that Primarchs were superhumans with insane levels of int and wis, who got shit done on a mad scale. They were THE most competent people to do their job, and they did it splendidly. Even Angron was effective as fuck.

Again, so what? The Astartes clearly don't need them to function, and creating beings that powerful is a massive internal risk which ultimately comes back to bite the IoM in the ass. Plus, and this is probably more the fault of the writers not being actual military geniuses themselves, they never actually seem to DO anything especially clever, it's pretty much an informed ability.

Don't waste however long it took making them in the first place, get the crusade started earlier, win.

>Implying Sigmar is not one of the lost primarchs

>so what?
>army doesn't need a leader
The crusade took hundreds of years, super competent and immortal army leaders of super-solder legions were a must. Mortal would waste Emp's time by dying.

>internal risk
Previously, that were Chaos Gods corrupting Horus with pure Warp power, and this corrupting Horus making half of the primarchs betray the Emperor. And then came Horus Heresy and it all turned into Daddy Issues: The Story. Horus Heresy was a mistake.

>army doesn't need a leader

Of course the army needs leaders. Why do they need THESE SPECIFIC LEADERS? Why not just promote people from the ranks or train them for officer duty like a normal, functioning military?

>The crusade took hundreds of years, super competent and immortal army leaders of super-solder legions were a must

Why?

>Mortal would waste Emp's time by dying.

So what if they do? Just appoint the next one in the regular chain of command.

>Previously, that were Chaos Gods corrupting Horus with pure Warp power, and this corrupting Horus making half of the primarchs betray the Emperor.

And then having the power to actually challenge the Emperor and seriously fuck him up. I mean for fuck's sake, the ENTIRE reason you have the modern structure of the Imperium is precisely because a decentralized authority structure is less prone to a massive failure like that. But Emps is apparently not smart enough to figure this out, even though he is supposedly aware of the threat of Chaos and tries to take steps to prevent or at least slow down its influence.

MUH
DIK

>trump posters think the Emperor is sympathetic

Yeah, like I said, you need the kind of mind simple enough to be taken in by in-story propaganda to sympathize with Big E.

>THESE SPECIFIC LEADERS
Because Emps literally bred them from his own DNA for this role, how hard is it to understand? The were created to be competent and were better than the others.

>Why?
Nigga you dumb? I've explained it.

>So what if they do?
The problem is to find a fitting person for the job, not seccond in command.

>And then
>hur dur I don't know what is Reign of Blood: The post

Shit happens, the Emperor did his best to avoid that, and when it failed, he did his best to end it.

>it's the Veeky Forums poster is triggered by the image of Trump
Spotting chaos posters was never easier

You know that the marines were based off their primarvhs DNA right? The primarchs came first and then marines were created using their template.

With the primarchs most of the legions would have turned into literal cancer.

>literally sacrifices himself to prevent Terra from becoming a new eye of terror.

Because it was the only way to survive. He never intend on being the one stuck on the throne, in fact he made a kid for that horrible fate.

>creates an empire to save humanity, because that's the only way

He created an empire to feed his ego. And it was an awful empire where 99% of mankind lives in desperate squalor.

>literally in the middle of saving everyone's ass, but considered unempathic because he's not some bleeding heart

He's not saving everyone, he's saving a select group of people he approves of, and being capable of understanding human emotions is not the same as being a bleeding heart.

>disliking xenos who either consider you trash or hate you is bad now

The Emperor had an irrational hate for ALL xenos, whether they were friend or foe to humanity, or even if they had no knowledge of them and could never be a threat. This weakened his regime and continues to weaken the Imperium, as it means they have to be constantly fighting pointless wars of genocide instead of focusing on what's important.

>considering that most people are not manchildren is being delusional now

He was delusional because he believed he, and in turn mankind, was infallible. He was an ageless luminous being, and yet he still clung to stupid tribal illusions and used fantasies of racial supremacy to prop them up.

>and yet Imperium is still alive and strong, ready to wreck chaos' collective ass, and kill armless failure for good

Every single source states that the Imperium is teetering on the brink of oblivion, constantly losing ground, and survives only due to its immense size. The Imperium is falling apart, but it's so huge that to the average person on the inside it seems to sort of work.

>being effective is stupid now

He gave Chaos its greatest warriors in the mortal realm via Space Marines, and gave Chaos its greatest source of mortal believers via the Imperium.

>Because Emps literally bred them from his own DNA for this role, how hard is it to understand?

The part where you stop arguing from your conclusion in a circle. Emps believes he needs these leaders because he created them to be leaders and this proves he's not stupid. Nowhere have you even addressed the idea as to what sort of leadership qualities were necessary to carry out the Crusade, or whether or not ordinary Astartes would be up for the task (insofar as you can apply the word "ordinary" to a Space Marine".

>Nigga you dumb? I've explained it.

No, you haven't. You've simply asserted it as if it were fact without explaining jack shit. Why do you need Primarchs and not just regular Space Marines, other than to ease Emps autism so he doesn't have to learn a new name every few decades.

>The problem is to find a fitting person for the job, not seccond in command.

And what makes that so difficult? Lots of armies manage to struggle through this somehow, and the Imperium has been doing it for the past 10 millenia.

>hur dur I don't know what is Reign of Blood:

You mean how a guy who had pretty much full control over the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy as well as at least considerable influence with the Officio Assassinorum managed to spark off a civil war and hugely fuck things up? That doesn't seem to be a good argument against the merits of decentralizing things to stall against risk of civil strife.

>Shit happens, the Emperor did his best to avoid that,

And his "best" was an incredibly bad idea, which leads to the inesecapable conclusion: Emps is very dumb.

>You know that the marines were based off their primarvhs DNA right? The primarchs came first and then marines were created using their template.

In absence of the Primarchs themselves and from the "leftovers" or whatever from the labs that made them. Whatever material was used to construct them could have been easily done without bringing the Primarchs themselves to term, or just ignoring them once they're blasted off into space.

>triggered

Just noting that only the easily-fooled believe the Emperor was a good guy.

There are no good guys in 40K. Also, Strawmanning everyone that disagrees with you as a 'Chaos poster' is pretty dumb, it's evident to anyone that isn't a complete idiot that the Emperor was not 40K's good guy.

40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good. It's about them being stupid and literally ruining the galaxy.

Most of the legions needed their primarch to balance their gene seed out. Thousand sons, space wolves, and emperors children are the first to come to mind. Several of the legions needed their primarch in order to spiritually balance out. Iron warriors, salamanders come to mind, but those are the exceptions I know.

Then you get to the point were they couldn't mass produce marines until they were reunited with their primarch as their template was needed to grow their shit and reduce rejection to more acceptable level.

Either way the legions needed their primarchs.

>in fact he made a kid for that horrible fate.
Actually no, the portal had to be sealed from the throne because THAT kid broke the fucking thing with sorcery, after his father telling him not to use the sorcery. It was never intended as a torture device, it was supposed to be just a control panel.
>Because it was the only way to survive.
And the fucked did it anyways, knowing that he could get reincarnated on another planet. He chose that to protect humanity, because he values it above his own life.
>He created an empire to feed his ego.
Lol.
>And it was an awful
It was noblebright as fuck before HH
>The Emperor had an irrational hate for ALL xenos
Which was justified.
>but some of them were friendly
eggs and omelettes
>he, and in turn mankind, was infallible.
He believed that we could stand and fight for ourselves (which we did during Great Crusade, and after his wound). Yes, shit has happened, but Imperium is still strong and ready to BTFO Chaos and Abby The Spineless
>fantasies of racial supremacy
lol
>Every single source states that the Imperium is teetering on the brink of oblivion
But it still stands, regaining territiries from time to time (Lord Solar and his crusad as an example). And it WILL continue to stand further.
>He gave Chaos its greatest warriors
Traitors gave themselves to Chaos, not Emps.
And look how good they are at their job not really. Took 10k years to destroy a single planet, and they didn't even do that, necron tech broke.

>There are no good guys in 40K.
Lol
>Lamenters
>Sanguinius
>Emps

>Strawmanning everyone that disagrees with you as a 'Chaos poster' is pretty dumb
But it works

>it's evident to anyone that isn't a complete idiot that the Emperor was not 40K's good guy.
>le strawman, but I'm gonna use another strawman myself
Not gonna work, dude

>40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good.
I'll not go into what "40k is about", because that's another (although short) topic, but moderate xenophobia and totalitarianism were the things that save humanity in 30k.

...

I think that things would be much worse for humanity without the machinations of the Emperor. Arguably for that Tau, too.

Without the Emperor creating the Imperium, it'd be the Orkperium vs Tyranids, with the Necrons in the background occasionally waking up to tell both to get the fuck off their lawns (with gauss).

>And the fucked did it anyways, knowing that he could get reincarnated on another planet. He chose that to protect humanity, because he values it above his own life.

He reincarnated as a human because he had been human before. That's it.

>Lol.

10/10 argument.

>It was noblebright as fuck before HH

No, it wasn't. It was still a backwards shithole where the Emperor's chosen warlords could slaughter and destroy as they felt necessary, little to no questions asked, and the vast majority of the populace was enslaved to fuel its war machine. Nigga, just process of creating Space Marines is grimdark as fuck.

>Which was justified.

All evidence suggests otherwise.

>He believed that we could stand and fight for ourselves (which we did during Great Crusade, and after his wound).

No, he just believed humanity was perfect because he was human. That's it. He was an egotistical asshole caught up in his own hubris.

>lol

Another stellar argument.

>But it still stands, regaining territiries from time to time (Lord Solar and his crusad as an example). And it WILL continue to stand further.

The Imperium is explicitly stated to be collapsing.

>Traitors gave themselves to Chaos, not Emps.

Yes. But his incompetence put them in a situation where they had no knowledge of Chaos' shenanigans, and he created these warriors in the first place. Also, he was 100% wrong about lack of belief killing Chaos, and his disastrously evil empire gives Chaos more followers than anyone through its cruelty and ignorance.

>Took 10k years to destroy a single planet, and they didn't even do that, necron tech broke.

Kek, you don't even know the fluff, do you? Nothing broke, you've been taken in by Veeky Forums memery. Abaddon dropped the remains of a Blackstone Fortress on Cadia, causing it to enter tectonic instability. The pylons exploding is a Veeky Forums myth.

This guy right here, that's who.
The other two just don't understand branding and merch.

>le racism and bigotry
>le I don't want to dirty my hands
>le a person must be evil if he creates an empire
>le a person can't be altruistic in his desire to help his own race (humans)

>Lamenters

Genocidal assholes.

>Sanguinius

Genocidal asshole.

>Emps

Genocidal asshole.

>But it works

It certainly makes you look like an idiot, sure.

>le strawman, but I'm gonna use another strawman myself

Are you an idiot? That was ad hominem, not strawman. Learn your basic argumentative techniques dude.

>I'll not go into what "40k is about"

Because you know I'm right.

>but moderate xenophobia and totalitarianism were the things that save humanity in 30k.

Humanity hasn't been saved you idiot. The vast majority of humanity live lives of abject suffering under the Imperium, which is actively making everything worse by providing Chaos with followers, distracting everyone in the galaxy from the real enemy with its pointless religious wars, and generally fucking everything up. The Imperium is humanity's long, torturous death, and probably the entire galaxy's death.

Interesting ad hominem you've got there. I think we're done here.

>it wasn't justified

When mankind's ability to travel from one system to another almost every xenos race turned on man and made each planet a bastion. Plus it seems 90% of xenos were hostile towards man, the other only tolerate peoples company because they can get something out of it.

We sure are

>>le racism and bigotry

Yeah, those things are bad and disrupt attempts to create a good society. They also, in the context of 40K, feed Chaos.

>le I don't want to dirty my hands

Wew, it must be nice to be able to just invent arguments to fight against when you have no answer to the ones that are there.

>le a person must be evil if he creates an empire

See above.

>le a person can't be altruistic in his desire to help his own race (humans)

See above.

>When mankind's ability to travel from one system to another almost every xenos race turned on man and made each planet a bastion

Wrong, the fluff states that SOME xenos did, specifically those that mankind had made any enemy of.

>Plus it seems 90% of xenos were hostile towards man

We have literally no evidence of this. Aside from orks, the only aliens from back then we have any fluff on are the allies of the Interex, who were friendly, the Eldar, who traded peacefully with mankind, and a nomadic species that took in homeless humans after the Fall, and whose last transmission before being destroyed by the Imperium was "We just wanted to be left alone."

Every race had it's chance to gain control of the galaxy. Eldar even said it's time for people to run this shit.

You sound like my wife.

She's a total pussy as well.

>and a nomadic species that took in homeless humans after the Fall, and whose last transmission before being destroyed by the Imperium was "We just wanted to be left alone."

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Diasporex

Almost forgot these guys. Probably the best example of the Imperium and the Emperor being truly evil shitheads.

Literally irrelevant to the discussion.

Having the chance to run shit does not mean you should go around enslaving the vast majority of your own species, killing everyone that disagrees with you, and wasting lives and effort on genocidal wars.

>40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good. It's about them being stupid and literally ruining the galaxy.
I'd add it's about absolutely everybody (except maybe a hundred or so individuals) being a dumb asshole and believing they're absolutely, unquestionably right, making it impossible to un-ruin the galaxy.
Defending a faction instead of laughing at how everybody in that universe is stupid is (kinda) giving in to the same mindset that made the 40k galaxy a shit place to live in.

I think it's an ad personam actually, but I'm too tired to check.

Cut her some slack bruh, she's probably gotta put a lot of effort into faking her orgasms.

Constantly pretending that your husband is competent must be seriously draining.

Y'all are missing the fact that there aren't suppose to be any cookie cutter good/bad factions in 40k

No effort required.

>TFW I realize i will never be able to go balls deep in my wife.

...

No, that's what I'm stating.

The other guy is arguing that the Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys. But there are no good guys in 40K. The Emperor and the Imperium were bad guys and are part of what makes 40K a setting where there are no 'goodies'. They've killed all the good guy civilizations.

Probably the closest things to real heroes in the universe are relatively small-scale characters like Ciaphas Cain, who is an absolutely terrible Imperial and beats himself up over it but is a great hero.

This autism proves that 40k is a cancer

It would depend if he was actually trying to use it to disprove 's point, in which case it would be an ad hominem by attempting to discredit the argument by attacking its source; or if he was just trying to insult the guy and get under his skin, at which point it's an ad personam.

We'll probably never entirely know for certain, although my money is just on "cheap trolling for replies".

>i've been arguing with a castrato

Wow.

Props dude, that's some dedication to the musical arts.

A liberal pussy is trying to insult someone, gets autism. Sad!

What sad events led to your life that you spend so long on an anime image board not only arguing about poorly written lowest common denominator science fiction, but being wrong about it too?

allright, who let /pol/ in?

JANITOR, PURGE THIS THREAD!

Let's be realistic now.

On Veeky Forums, insults are basically punctuation.

>Castroto

Uncle Ben once told a naive Peter Parker that with great power comes great responsibility.

In his case it's about lining NYC with sticky string. In mine it's to stop slamming it in about half an inch from the cervix.

>user is outplayed in every way
>oh shit he's starting to realize how dumb he looks
>"a-autism amirite guys!?"
>"saying autism makes me right, right?"

You need to leave.

>muh /pol/ boogyman
How easily triggered are you, dude? I noticed that Veeky Forums was going the /co/ way, but come the hell on, we didn't even mention irl politics.
>le trump pic
It's a fucking reaction image, grow a thicker skin.

Being correct about cuckold libs helps, pussy faggot.

Still inciting baits /pol/fag

JANITOR! PURGE THIS FUCKER BACK TO 8ch

Not even the original poster, dude. Pls apply yourself.

>he can't line NYC with sticky string

To be fair, the trumpposter dude was clearly conflating IRL politics with fictional politics in his posts.

It's almost like he couldn't tell the two apart.

>triggering Veeky Forums posters just by arguing with them
Woah

>he doesn't even know how to report

You need to go back to /pol/ user

Actually no. And it was indeed just a reaction image, but, to be fair, I knew that it triggers Veeky Forums.

Please, anyone that uses the term 'cuckold libtards' seriously is pure /pol/.

Leave.

>you can't use an insult because I say so
Are we back to calling everyone a dumb nigger or a faggot? "Cuckold libtard" has a nice kick to it, and it triggers people.

>Leave.

just report and leave the janitor do the job, also report OP

Fucking elves with their masculine femme faces and female bodies.

Fucking hate elves

>le genocidal asshole
Kill yourself xeno cuck, go play starcraft and fuck off from 40k.

>it's an ''autists apply 21 century first world liberal values to the grim darkness of the far future and expect anything other then disdain''
Kill yourselves. Seriously.
>some cuck talking shit about SANGUINIUS
>FUCKING SANGUINIUS
End yourself.

>i know better then the millennia old godlike supergenius, also his and my perspective are completely the same
>even though i literally never endured an iota of actual strife i'll judge how a civilization on the verge of extinction beset by the literal forces of Hell acts
This is all you spew, every fucking time.

You literally don't understand the setting.

The setting of 40K is hopeless and grimdark because bad decisions, including the bad decisions of the Emperor and the Imperium, made it that way.

It's not about necessary evils. In fact, every single bit of writing illustrates that the way the Imperium operates is unnecessary as fuck, with half its policies being rooted in extremely inefficient backwards doctrine. The point of 40K is that for all his power and might, the Emperor was still fundamentally human, and humans are flawed, the worst angels of their nature triumphing over the better very easily. The galaxy is only as bad as it is because he made poor decisions and insisted on being a huge space Nazi.

Now, look, I know it makes your dick tingle when you pretend that 40K supports your more fascistic views, but it doesn't. 40K is about people acting that way and ruining the galaxy because of it.