Apologize

Well you CAN but your opinion might not be held in very high esteem and people may even be suspicious of your motive in not explaining.

it is weeaboo fightan' magic
t. a guy who hates casters

really, there is no way to fix melee in 3.5 without completely changing the way it and magic work.

I'm sorry for making fighters irrelevant by releasing fighter 2.0: actually fun to play edition

not that guy, but the book is bad.
its not bad because the stuff presented in it doesn't work, or even that it doesn't make melee viable, but because it completely changes the way melee fighters have to be in the world. there will never be a normal knight; they will always be freaks who flip around lighting their blades on fire, teleporting, spinning in circles, etc.
crusaders are arguably grounded but the built in fluff of being, you know, a crusader, ruins them too

Eh, true, but DnD without Vancian magic in the from that grognards are used to can hardly be considered DnD.
Just look at 4e that tried to change things up, and ended up being labeled as "too videogamey", when it was just trying to turn DnD into what it was trying to be from the very beginning - a wargame.
Seriously, anything in 3.5 that isn't related to combat is either caster-exclusive or not fleshed out at all.

No. Fuck you.

Except that's bullshit.

Nothing stops you making a 'normal knight' using Warblade as a chassis. Fuck, I've done it before and it works fine.

Needed to make a return in 5e desu.
There shouldn't be 'normal' PC knights under D&D's rules for magic, because 'normal' people (read: people who don't use magic) are irrelevant after a certain point.
If you want to play a system where non-magical resources are limited, D&D is a really poor fit.

im not saying get rid of vancian magic at all. in fact i would move back to a more classically d&d system were wizards have to announce they are casting at the beginning of a round and can't get spells off until the end. this would allow meleers to run and get in cover or run up and grapple them to the ground and stop the cast before it goes off

Even a warblade is going to be standing around in a kung fu fighting stance, spinning in circles to hit everyone around him, doing kung fu mind clearing techniques to shrug off spells, and somehow empowering his blade to slip right through armor.

read my post right be low your own. magic shouldnt be an instantaneous meme. if it takes a while to cast a spell, normies can tackle you to the ground and stop it and stay relevant.
i agree that if people are flying around normies are going to need some magic to compete, but the basic idea is still the same; get a bracelet of wings or whatever, fly up, and tackle the wizard to the earth before he shoots the fireball

I'd argue that you could pull off bo9s style classes without going full magic, although I'd argue that high-level martial should have abilities that are extraordinary and rival magic.

To really "fix melee" though you'd probably have to throw out most of it and start from the ground up incorporating tactics and techniques like disarming and tripping into the class which would then effect feats and require more work although I'd argue feats are unbalanced anyway.

Why? What is forcing you to do that?

I played a Warblade who was a dude in armour who was good at hitting things really hard in a variety of useful and interesting and ways. So basically just a 'normal knight', only actually useful and fun to play.

>Kung Fu fighting stance
Every fighting style in the world uses stances, even knights using longswords had stances. There's nothing that says they have to be "one leg up, while you make a high pitched Kenshiro noise"
>spinning in circles to hit everyone around him
You mean like Great Cleave, which is apparently fine?
>doing kung fu mind clearing techniques
Again, nothing implies this has to be some mystical eastern shit. Why can't he just be shrugging it off with GRIT and MANLINESS?
>somehow empowering his blade to slip right through armor
Because knights never targeted the joints, or slats in armor, to bypass it?

i guess you just ignored what maneuvers and stances really are then. its pretty hard to play a warblade without them and if you are using them, you are doing exactly what i described.
ive played every class from the ToB in multiple campaigns and there's always been numerous other users NPC and PC alike and none of them have ever been "normal" knights simply by the nature of the classes

I'm sorry I fucked up OP's power fantasy

>kung fu fighting stances
takes 2 seconds of google to find german or italian fencing manuals, rename the stances and you're now full european
>spinning circles to hit everyone around him
nobody forces you to take that ability, roleplaying is still an option and even a suboptimal warblade is better than a fighter
>doing kung fu mind clearing techniques
replace kung fu with devotion and you've crusading knights. And before you go "but it didn't work entirely like that", you're playing a fantasy game, not a reality one.
>empowering his blade to slip through armor
and here's something historical knights actually did, look for a weak point and slip a blade through it

I see absolutely no god damn problem

Ok, so let me elaborate: I think D&D 3.5 is a flawed system in higher levels, and the way they found to fix it was to make martial classes tougher. The problem is that it ended up like some kind of weird anime-style characters that doesn't make much sense and doesn't fit in your classic fantasy/sword and sorcery settings.

If was to play 3.5 again, I would play in lower levels, using E6 rules for instance, so I wouldn't need this crap to balance the game. Btw, the game is not even supposed to go on for so long, characters should retire around level 10. Check out this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=X9vECzikqpY

>Every fighting style in the world uses stances, even knights using longswords had stances. There's nothing that says they have to be "one leg up, while you make a high pitched Kenshiro noise"
read the stance descriptions
>You mean like Great Cleave, which is apparently fine?
great cleave is dumb too dont strawman me
>Again, nothing implies this has to be some mystical eastern shit. Why can't he just be shrugging it off with GRIT and MANLINESS?
read the maneuver description
>Because knights never targeted the joints, or slats in armor, to bypass it?
read the maneuver description; that's not what youre doing.

>spinning in circles to hit everyone around him
>doing kung fu mind clearing techniques to shrug off spells
Yeah all that stupid weaaboo fightin magic like whirlwind attacks or raging to help with a save, oh wait-

fun fact: if you're above lv 3 you're no longer playing a normal human regardless of what class you play

lv 6 and you're above what's theoretically possible

No? I'm refluffing things in ways which are suitable for the character I want to play/ You know, the thing everyone is always capable of doing. And it doesn't even take effort. Holding it up as some kind of barrier or restriction is fucking meaningless.

see and

>The problem is that it ended up like some kind of weird anime-style characters that doesn't make much sense and doesn't fit in your classic fantasy/sword and sorcery settings.

>doesn't fit in your classic fantasy/sword and sorcery settings.

Pic related

hey matey here's a fun idea

You. Do. Not. Have. To. Follow. The. Book. To. The. Letter.

Its not a videogame

and if we're going to play like this then I'm going to heavily complain about how wizards are complete and utter DBZ levels of bullshit and should be more like Merlin

Oh, you're baiting. Sorry, my bad, I made the mistake of engaging you.

see making up what you want the stuff in the book to mean is not following the book and is nto an argument for its quality.

and the fighter is so mechanics bare he can't accurately represent a knight either

so I'm giving 2 inaccurate options, one of them is efficient, one is not

*sigh* see not baiting at all. successfully argue against me if you really think youre right

>great cleave is dumb too
So what exactly in your opinion SHOULD martials be allowed to do without it being anime magic?

i also argued that melee needs to be wholly revamped to make it work (and that ToB is not the way to do it). understand my argument before you try to refute it.

Except its not making stuff up.

It's...Slightly different fluff.

And fuck, it's not even that different. Some disciplines are explicitly supernatural but you can play a Stone Dragon/Iron Heart warblade whose maneuvers consist of nothing explicitly supernatural or even slightly out of the ordinary.

You're literally arguing that this weird mental block you seem to have somehow makes the book bad.

I'm ok with gods and demigods, but Conan doesn't do any of that anyme-style power moves you see in this book.

see my other posts...
they should do what real knights did: grapple you so you can't move, wrestle you so you're vulnerable, and then stab you to death.

and I'm saying that revamped option does not exist unless you're presenting your own homebrewed class that does it more accurately

so if you do not have said homebrewed class you have literally no argument against including ToB classes

>magical resources
Bleh, but it works just the same wither way.
An ordinary person just plain doesn't wield the type of wealth and magic a PC does.
So what's the difference in 'normalcy' between wearing a magical item and acquiring the ability to do what the magical item does through training?
The only difference I see is that you have to rely on putting on all your magic items at the beginning of the day, while the wizard and weeb fighters don't.
If you really want to close the differences between the classes, you should bring wizards down to earth, both figuratively and literally. Beyond casting times:
>Magic has much more nuance than 'I memorize the spell'- certain situational factors, like the state of the sun, season, and star alignment, are a factor
>Magic has an actual cost for every spell cast- basically, you have to write a scroll before you can cast the spell, each and every time you cast the spell. None of this spell focus shit. The difference between wizards and non-wizards is that wizards know how to write scrolls and are better at casting them.
>There are some things that magic just can't do, like make new things, create sentient life, or revive the dead.
>Spells are lower-power, sticking at or under about level 5. We Warlocks now.
It'll piss off blaster casters, but some people enjoy setting up a situation so that the sun is just right to fucking roast a warlord with a Sun Focus spell.

if you have to change the book then the book doesn't work. mechanics and fluff are equally important and if one is bad it taints the entire thing. especially in a system like d&d (and to a greater extent 3.5) where fluff is baked into the crunch

no but he does plenty of the more down to earth maneuvers available in the book
that's like saying its impossible to play an illusionist wizard because the book only lets you ban 2 other schools instead of every single one other than illusions

"this is all we have" doesnt make it good, dingus
the difference is that d&d is european fantasy. putting on magical items is something that actually happened in western fantasy, but weeaboo fightan magic isnt.

If we want to go by absolute realism and not look at mythology at all then they should be useless against dragons and most other monsters and have a maximum strength cap.

Ahhhh the good old days, where a single arrow hitting a wizard would spoil his spell, and possibly kill him.

>they should be useless against dragons
wut? dragons weren't that strong in real mythology bud.
if i was arguing for "absolute" realism there wouldnt be any monsters or dragons at all.

So you're ignoring the evidence of the various non-supernatural disciplines available?

oh boy, you just pulled the european mythology one?

FANTASTIC

Ban every single magical class because literally none of them accurately represent magic in european mythology
Literally every single one.
After all you said it yourself
>"this is all we have" doesnt make it good, dingus

>weeaboo fightan magic isnt

>Then took place the first twisting-fit and rage of the royal hero Cuchulain, so that he made a terrible, many-shaped, wonderful, unheard of thing of himself. His flesh trembled about him like a pole against the torrent or like a bulrush against the stream, every member and every joint and every point and every knuckle of him from crown to ground. He made a mad whirling-feat of his body within his hide. His feet and his shins and his knees slid so that they came behind him. His heels and his calves and his hams shifted so that they passed to the front. The muscles of his calves moved so that they came to the front of his shins, so that each huge knot was the size of a soldier's balled fist. He stretched the sinews of his head so that they stood out on the nape of his neck, hill-like lumps, huge, incalculable, vast, immeasurable and as large as the head of a month-old child.
This description goes on for three more paragraphs.

tfw my entire group are 3aboos :(
again, read the book. you can't just make up your own descriptions for the options presented in it

I am reading the book right fucking now. I am seeing entire disciplines full of manoeuvres with perfectly mundane fluff. What the fuck book are you reading?

thats because d&d is based on LotR, etc which were in turn based on european mythology. what's your point again?
youre describing a JOOCY dude flexing while fighting. how is that weeaboo fightan magic?

Mate, Conan would paly like a level 6 barbarian or something. He doesn't have supernatural fighting ability, he often runs away when he's outnumbered and one time he was almost killed by a fucking gorilla.

Play*

D&D doesnt accurately represent Lotr magic either

The system is beyond flawed with all kinds of weeaboo spells like creating a house out of nowhere and coating everything with a silly layer of grease and as a result you should not play magic classes

Work on your reading comprehension; I said if we DON'T look mythology since you want to ignore martials doing anything beyond what real knights could do.
If you want dragons and other monsters to be exactly as described as in mythology than casters should probably be too.
>if i was arguing for "absolute" realism there wouldnt be any monsters or dragons at all.
So you don't want absolute realism but martials should only be able to do what real knights could do?

I mean you're free to have whatever sort roleplay fantasy game you want but it seems like you're insisting that things are flawed for not catering to your very specific tastes alone.

I could have sworn that at least one of the 3.X player handbooks told you it was okay to call and fluff your dumb class abilities/skills/feats whatever the fuck your heart desires.

Fuck, I'm trying to copy some descriptions from the book to prove the blithering idiot wrong, but the OCR on the italic text in my copy is fucked up. Anyone got a download link to a better version?

>He next made a ruddy bowl of his face and his countenance. He gulped down one eye into his head so that it would be hard work if a wild crane succeeded in drawing it out on to the middle of his cheek from the rear of his skull. Its mate sprang forth till it came out on his cheek. His mouth was distorted monstrously. He drew the cheek from the jaw-bone so that the interior of his throat was to be seen. His lungs and his lights stood out so that they fluttered in his mouth and his gullet. He struck a mad lion's blow with the upper jaw on its fellow so that as large as a wether's fleece of a three year old was each red, fiery flake which his teeth forced into his mouth from his gullet.
>There was heard the loud clap of his heart against his breast like the yelp of a howling bloodhound or like a lion going among bears. There were seen the torches of the Badb, and the rain clouds of poison, and the sparks of glowing-red fire, blazing and flashing in hazes and mists over his head with the seething of the truly wild wrath that rose up above him. His hair bristled all over his head like branches of a redthorn thrust into a gap in a great hedge. Had a king's apple-tree laden with royal fruit been shaken around him, scarce an apple of them all would have passed over him to the ground, but rather would an apple have stayed stuck on each single hair there, for the twisting of the anger which met it as it rose from his hair above him.
>The Lon Laith ('Champion's Light') stood out of his forehead, so that it was as long and as thick as a warrior's whetstone. As high, as thick, as strong, as steady, as long as the sail-tree of some huge prime ship was the straight spout of dark blood which arose right on high from the very ridge-pole of his crown, so that a black fog of witchery was made thereof like to the smoke from a king's hostel what time the king comes to be ministered to at nightfall of a winter's day.
Insert Super Saiyan joke here.

ITT
>M-muh feels
>NO MY FEELS
>Your rights end where my feelings begin!

I really don't see how you're getting that from this thread? It's just a bog-standard internet shit-flinging argument. No "Muh feels" involved.

>he interprets everthing in the book exactly as written and with no personal creative influence
You must be a fucking barrel of monkeys on game night.

>thats because d&d is based on LotR
So ban all the spell casting classes because mortals in LotR can't use magic on anywhere near that scale?

Well, it's not like we argue with logic. Most of these threads are us arguing our emotional viewpoint, or trolls attacking them. Half these threads are "if you get mad and reply to me, I get to call you and autist, which means I win, then we go for round two, four, seventeen, and twenty!"

>look for a weak point and slip a blade through it
You mean like... Emerald Razor? Jesus you're fucking stupid.

What's up with the /v/ tier no-effort thread we have been seeing recently?
"Apologize", "Blocks your path", etc.

Roland, King Arthur, Arash, Lancelot, Bedievere, Kay, Diarmuid, Diomedes, Beowulf, Ali Talib, Odisseus and Sigurd are all normal humans in their stories.
That's like, half the people on that image.
Some pretty impressive people btw.

>you have to change the book then the book doesn't work.

Wrong.

The book is a tool, now a law.

Funnily enough, Gygax never wanted magic user to be a player class. It ended up on d&d due to one of this friends

No, that's pretty true if you have to unfuck the mechanics, but it takes little to no effort to reflavor something.

Yeah. The principle is generally correct, it's just being applied in the most stupid way possible.

And as said above, it's not even true. There are disciplines in the book with entirely mundane fluff that you can use with the exact same sort of description you'd give a core book fighter without it even being a refluffing.

It was in the 3.5 dungeon master guide. It explicitly said that as long as the mechanical effects were the same and you didn't go overboard you could fluff your abilities as you wanted. The example for going overboard was a fireball spell being described as a summon of a dragon that then proceeded to breath fire on the enemy.

welllllllll, arthur was said to have fay blood, odisseus was favoured by the gods

>read the maneuver description

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies.

It's literally what has been said. Have YOU read the maneuver description?

Or are you arguing that mental strength, physical fortitude, fighting spirit, training and dedications are all exclusive to Kung fu?

For

We already know hes an autistic idiot, do you really need him to admit it?

To him, anything that isn't on the corebook and doesn't boil down to "full iterative attack" is magic weeaboo kong fu bullshit

>read the maneuver description; that's not what youre doing.

Emerald Razor

You stare at your enemy, studying his every move. You mentally probe his defenses in search of a weakness. A lesser warrior could spent long minutes pondering this problem, but you see an opening and seize upon it in an instant.

Your understanding of combat, your keenly honed mind, and your capability to read your opponents make you a deadly combatant. When you focus your mind, even the most elusive opponent becomes an easy target.

It's literally what are you doing.

desu you just need to give martials more options(for example, more meaningful and not completely crippling to your accuracy called shots, the stances thing in BoNS to allow greater tactical options) while putting more restrictions on casters. The issue with D&D 3.5 is that casters have too many options and fighters have too few, but giving them the same style of options like 4e did(daily, per session, per encounter powers for everyone) doesn't solve the problem. It just hides it.

Honestly, I prefer 4e to 5e, but D&D has been fucking up wizards and clerics progressively worse for years, and 4e wasn't really a step in the right direction, it just kind of stalled out. But their reaction to 4e not being terribly popular with their core fanbase? JUST DO THAT LAST THING THAT WAS POPULAR, BUT WORSE! One failed innovation lead them to bringing back all of 3.5's worst flaws, while inventing entirely new ones(advantage system, for example). Nevermind that the first book they released resurrected some flaws we hadn't seen since 2e(Oh you want a shield? Well here's the list- Shield. That's it.) and weird shit like not having fire damage in the first book. Honestly that's one of the worst sins. Once upon a time you could functionally run a game from just one book. Nowadays, half the key features are hidden in other fucking books.

I always hate this list collection. Give me fucking citations on this shit, I've read King Arthur mythology and never heard of half these "arthurian" fucking feats of strength. That and uh...

>western
>son wukong
>guan yu
>karna
>rama
>ali talib
>houyi
>abaangui
>arjuna
>parashurama

Nevermind that the Green Knight isn't laughing off his own beheading because he's so tough, he's laughing it off because he has a magical item given to him by... I think the lady in the lake? Some fae spirit, I believe, anyways, that makes him immune to all harm. Makes me question the rest of these "Feats of strength" when one of the examples is literally just a guy with a really sweet magic item. Oh, and Samson was strong because of the blessing of god(and, it's implied, the same is true of most of the Knights of the Round Table, ESPECIALLY including Galahad and Gawain).

Nevermind that atleast 50%- ATLEAST- are gods or avatars of gods, and there's some pretty heavy repetition on the list(I think there's three heracles? Not sure).

Fuck this list, it's a shitty fucking meme.

>Nevermind that atleast 50%- ATLEAST- are gods or avatars of gods,
And this wasn't true for mythological Wizards?

Yes. It was not uncommon for gods to be wizards. However, there are also plenty of wizards who were not gods(merlin, for example). And if you presented me with an argument about how mortal wizards should behave based on a list of godly wizards, I would dismiss them, too. This is an excellent list for playing exalted, not so much for a mid-fantasy dungeon crawler.

Where does it say "western" on the list? Even some of the ones that aren't western aren't exactly eastern either.

Even dropping the heracles and thor listings, you've got some pretty strong non-divine people. Even the ones that are "a guy with a really sweet magic item" are still reasonably good warriors in their own right, considering that they earned their really sweet magic item. About what you'd expect at the high levels.

>However, there are also plenty of wizards who were not gods(merlin, for example)
You're an idiot.

Merlin's not a god. What's your problem with this? I mean he's kind of unclear what he is, but that's what happens when druidic traditions are forcibly converted to christian.

The only people who hate this book are cuckolds who believe their mundane fighters ought to liberally offer their boi pussies to alpha male casters.

Well, the second post, for example, and it's inherently a response to criticism of the BoNS, which pretty universally comes from people who want western inspired fighters, not eastern/muslim/hindu(which is... does that qualify as eastern? I don't know), so including eastern fighters on the list is pretty fucking disingenuous.

And you make it sound like Western style warriors can't do cool shit. They don't have to run on cloud like Wuxia fighters but they can do more than " I swing sword" at least

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times; CALLED SHOTS ARE CANON WITHIN THE DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE

Every single fucking edition includes rules for wounds and roleplay based combat.

The only reason anyone says martials aren't viable is because they give casters leniency and martials no leniency.

"Oh, you want to use powerful winds to sweep enemies off their feet and over the edge of a cliff? Sure!"

"WHAT? YOU WANT TO CUT MY CASTERS ARM OFF? FUCK YOU, THAT'S BULLSHIT!"

Casters and the DM's that advocate for them are a bunch of babies that aren't willing to apply the same level of lateral thinking to martials even though they apply it to casters.

That's literally the only thing that is holding them back.

P.S. Vancian magic is literally garbage.

No they aren't and no they don't you fucking retard.

Not him, but d&d style magic doesn't really belong in mythology.
The average myth magician can see the future, make prophecies, brew potions, etc.
Actually doing big stuff is the exception not the rule, and most of the big magicians weren't humans (or not entirely humans).
Pointing at Merlin as an example for D&D mages is specially bad because most of what he did was rather lowkey.
Talked the Lady of the Lake into giving Arthur a sword, enchanted a rock so only the worthy could pick the sword, saw things to come, shapeshifted Uther into someone else, found a chair that would kill anyone unworthy of sitting on it, etc.
Hell, most gods in any mythology you care to name are rather underhelming compared to high end d&d wizards

>unclear
Merlin is a half demon

He was the Antichrist who got baptized and decided he didn't want to be the Antichrist anymore. As a kid. And he could walk and talk and see the future within basically no time because he got blessed by God for disowning his demonic heritage.

>waah, I'm a fucking inbred dick-shit retard that doesn't know how to read! WAAAAAAH

Read a fucking book once in your miserable life, fat retard loser.