Whats the difference between psychics and mages in your games?

aiite mate but what if the psychic's got a migraine

Mages are IT nerds who think a vague knowledge of java gives them a deep understanding of the universe and all sciences.

Depends on how capable the psychic is. Maybe it shuts him down completely. Maybe it's a risk reward thing where he can actually treat his migraine like his mind is being overclocked. His powers are increased, but there's more potential for feedback, wear, or other kinds of self-harm.

Spelling

>Mages draw on external sources of power, while psychics draw from within.

This is probably the closest for practical purposes.

psionics are usually limited to whatever natural ability they're born with (telekinesis, pyrokinesis or mind fuckery) they get better at it but is fundementally the same shit.

Magic has a vast pool of different tricks to draw on but the effect might be more shallow.

Psions have raw power but mages have finesse and adaptability

All forms of magic is essentially asserting one's will upon something else and making it do something. Only the captial "G" Gods have the ability to will something into existence from pure nothingness.

Mages are typically associated with scholarly sorts who study the way or nature and the universe and use their will to bend it to their command in the form of alchemy.

While psychics is simply one of many names used by laymen to describe those with powers they don't understand they to use their will and assert it on things around them albeitit more overtly from willing things to move with their thoughts to forming spiritual connections with concepts such as monks who walk miles with mortal wounds and solemnly pray as they pass away to literal firebrands who's skin ignite with spiritual fire and empircal stoics who look unmoved as blades thud uselessly against their skin.

It shuts him down. Or it gives everyone around him has a bad migraine as well, up to a bad case of exploding heads if the psion is particularly powerful without the self-discipline to contain himself.

Mages exist.

>in your games?
In my games neither really exists, they're called sorcerers but don't work like DnD sorcerers.

I like this

Mages exist, psychics don't

My Pathfinder Psychics put all their stats into STR and INT and I roleplay them like Macho Man Randy Savage.

Psychics don't have access to the same power sets as mages, generally speaking, they also can't really tap into lei lines for additional power.

Psions cultivate power within themselves; their own minds are trained to affect the world around them via various manifestations of magic power.
Wizards learn spells that function more or less like programs, interfacing with the world's logic engine through this medium. Through logic or trial and error, they determine ancient faults in the world and activate them for desired effects, very rarely creating new ones.

Psions can sometimes employ their powers to force open these programs and manifest arcane magic, and mages have developed some spells that yield effects similar to those commonly manifested by psions.

This is without getting into the various divides in arcane magic, such as bardic, pact, or innate sorcerous power, or the several other magic power sources such as divine channeling or primal spirit magic.

So psychics are basically sorcerers, innate and all.

How creative, user.

Nah, Sorcerers still draw on external forces. They just do so instinctively, rather than by practice.

Psionics is always, going to be powers of the mind. Thats what it says on the tin. That makes it something innate to the user.

Magical, especially DnD style magic, fucks around using external sources of power like other planes or the elements and shit.

If you don't like that, use different rules. But don't order from the vegan menu and complain there's no meat in it.

The Dark Sun setting had a creative mingling between psionics and wizardry, where epic magic could only be administered via an improved mind, through being a psychic. Otherwise you could not dream of comprehending some complexities, or not go insane from it.

In this way arcane magic is much more potentially powerful than those of the mind, but you still need some proficiency in psionics to muster god tier spells.

Psychics are mages with mental delusions

My familiarity with the setting is limited but doesn't arcane magic require draining life force of the world around you hence why psionics is a thing?

>doesn't arcane magic require draining life force of the world around you
That's the defilers. Preservers don't do that, but they're weaker (fewer spells and shit).

So to get to the theoretical power of a typical PC wizard you have to be a defiler?

I believe so. I haven't gone through and directly compared the ordinary 2e mage and the defiler.

I see, I always thought wizards were non existant in the setting save for clerics who worship the elements because gods are also seemingly non-existant in the setting.

That said, I recall a PrC in the Psionics splat for 3.5 where you could be a Cerebramancer, basically a mystic Theurge for wizard/psions

Well, I run 2e, so mages are standard vancian casters and psychics are a horrible unintuitive nightmarish mess of unbalanced rules that meshes poorly with the standard mechanics. (Outside of the Dark Sun setting, at least.)

Also, all the psychics in my current game are velociraptors. (Deinonychus technically, but my players are all 90s era Jurassic Park fanboys.)

Psychics in my setting, once 5e reintroduces psionic powers, will be akin to monks.

Monks train the body to control their chakra. Psionic power is that same energy but unlocked via the disciplined training of the mind. Where some monasteries focus on the discipline of the body, others dedicate themselves to unlocking the power of the mind. Fluff-wise monks and psions are almost always martial artists.

But in my setting as well there is also the natural psion. Usually the result of contact with powerful psionic creatures. People tortured by aboleths occasionally develop psionic powers, while others gain their as a result of being the victim of experimentation from aliens, or worse, elder beings. Thes people might develop psionic powers and gain a mastery over them, but the power they aquire wasn't the result of years of discipline but rather their mind being fundamentally altered due to contact with powerfu beings that unlock the psionic potential.

Having psychics and mages be different things is retarded

Sorcerer's aren't internal.

Look at it like this.

A Wizard reads a manual, and learns how to life a crane(magic) to move a rock

A sorcerer is born knowing how to use the crane(magic) to move a rock

A psion moves the rock himself.

Not really. It means you're far too quick to dismiss things.

forgot the last part.

So basically Psions are "common" in two locations of my setting. The Asia-India influence area where they're priests and the cities among insane asylums, secret societies, aboleth cults and the occasional university professor who practices eastern aesthetics in secret.

Well, they're two different classes bro.

And their spells are different, as well as the rules on how they work.

>Mages live in the fantasy settings and psychics live in the soft sci-fi settings.
Sweet Jesus. I thought I was the only one. Thank you user, for letting me know I`m not alone.

A sorcerer in D&D has magic in their blood. Literally. The can cast spells as easily as you or I could breath. They don't even need material components. They just have to make the gestures and sounds.

Since you're discussing in terms of D&D, I should point out that the definition of a sorcerer entirely depends on the setting in question.

Despite being labeled a multiverse, D&D has some very conflicted and inconsistent settings ideas.

>they're too different classes bro

Wizards and Clerics were effectively the same damn thing throughout real world history.

And a Psion doesn't need gestures and sounds at all. Their ability to use magic is in they're blood, but their power source is the external weave. At least in forgotten realms.

>And a Psion doesn't need gestures and sounds at all

This isn't always exclusive to them.

>At least in the forgotten realms

One of the most inconsistent settings, period.

Who's Forgotten Realms? That Spell Weave shit is pretty new.

Different schools of learning and thought. Psychics are just another sort of mage, who work off of a different base technique.

Depends on system and setting though.

Some put them in the same boat as monks.

That's something that's rather consistent across the settings though. Arcane and Divine being external sources and Psionic being internal.
>This isn't always exclusive to them
In D&D terms it literally is unless it's a spell like ability, which HMMM reflects an internal and inherent ability of the creature vs something that must be channeled.
No it's not. The concept of it within the setting is at least 19 years old
>forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Weave

The setting is over 50 years old bruh

Depends, in 4e Monks were put in the same boat as Psionic's, which I think was a good move.
The comment was based off the oldest reference in the article. Hence(at least). In any event 19 bordering on 20 years old isn't "new".

The Weave was introduced in 2E.

Psionic effects are typically more imediate and dramatic. They're flash in the pan. Shoot this blast. Control this mind. Lift this bolder. Force X to grow Y.

Arcane mages are a lot more subtle and permanent. Converting materials. Summoning demons. Necromancy. Cursing people. etc.

Is the monk not also a practitioner of the supernatural? A man who can run up walls, on water, thrice as fast as a normal man, parry swords and punch through armor into a knight's vitals using only their bare hands is hardly mundane, even if they're not an outright mage.

also
>whats the difference between psychics and mages in your games?
>"in your games"
>>>>"depends on the setting"

Compared to the standard 2e Mage (which the Preserver is identical to), 2e Defilers have faster level growth, higher level caps for elves&half-elves, and the potential to memorize more spells. (They make an INT check modified by the amount of plantlife in the area when they memorize spells to see if they end up with more or less than normal. This means in barren terrain they actually risk memorizing fewer spells than normal, but the inflated Dark Sun base stats usually puts the roll in their favor.)

Idiots

The Forgotten Realms setting is actually older than D&D. Ed Greenwood came up with it way before Gygax and Arneson did their schtick.

I don't get where people get the idea that Psions aren't supernatural.

Anything that is supernatural in D&D, is magical. That doesn't make you the same thing as a wizard.

You're arguing something completely different to the point I was making.

Psychics/eastern mystics are mages who uses crystals as alt material components and focuses.

That's it.

Those people are retarded, but what does that have to do with what I'm saying?

Then the point you're trying to make isn't very clear.

Not using verbal and somatic components may not be exclusive to Psionic creatures, but it is exclusive to creatures that draw from an internal source of power/abilities. Sorcerer's do not fall into this category.

It's a sentiment I see echoed so fucking much in these threads, it's practically a canned response at this point.

>Sorcerer's do not fall into this category

Depends on the setting in question, buddy. Your ideals don't overlap with everyone else's, sorry.

Except sorcerers are explicitly innate with what they do.

Yes, but I'm talking about D&D, which is what most people are referring to when this shit comes up.

In every instance in D&D that I am aware of. Sorcerers are arcane which is explicitly drawing on external power.

They have an innate GRASP of magic. Their magic is not a quality that is innate in and off itself. Why is this a hard concept to understand. Arcane magic is explicitly manipulating external energies.

To me this is the division between Arcane, Divine and Psychic magic.

Arcane is true magic. I-ain't-got-to-explain-shit magic. People have enough understanding to get it to work, but only just.

Divine magic are miracles. Clerics don't cast spells, they pray for them. Their omnipotent god then interseeds on their behalf.

Psychic magic isn't magic, it just seems like it. Magic, Arcane or Divine, is impossible and literally changes reality to function. Psychic "magic", via pseudo scientific babble, allows one to manipulate mater on a quantum level.

>They don't even need material components
Unless they take Eschew Materials, yes, they do.

They are actually born knowing the diagrams, symbols, words and exact measures of bat poop you need to cast a spell, and they cast exactly like wizards do.

Which is dumb as hell.

>Good example of mechanics going against written lore.

No actually, they get it as a bonus feat to reflect that they can do it easier. Otherwise you are correct.

It's not. 5e is the only edition where the Sorcerer is innately magical in and of itself. For every other edition, he's right on the money bar the Eschew Materials thing(which they get for free).

I usually do it as the difference between runesmiths and chaos dwaves.

All "Mystic bullshit" relies on the same source, your body produces magic in the same way it does energy for physical things, so you can get sore from exerting yourself.

Spell like abbilities use natural evolutionary skills to access it. Like dragonbreath.

Divne magic supplements your natural power with something that comes from a external source. Its easier to use but creates a dependence, this is why however most divine users dont have to dress in cloth.

Arcane magic uses the same power from the outside surrondings to better shape your power. It, like modern strategies, comes from years of practice, trial and error, and hard work.

Psychic power just uses your raw power without much concern. So

> Psychic is the hotblooded protagonist
> Arcane is the cool sidekick thats a alleged genius
> Divine is the main antagonist who gets killed by the REAL FINAL BOSS at the last ten chapters

Referring more to the novels than the actual games. This isn't something they do in Dragonlance and the truck load of works on the Forgotten Realms.

Mages have powers, Psychics are con artists.

>5e
Don't need materials if you got an arcane focus.

>Eschew Materials thing(which they get for free).
I see you hiding there, Pathfag. They certainly don't get it free in 3.5.

Mages are sexier, whereas psychics are cuter

I'm fucking sorry I get shit mixed up in two similar games well over a decade old.

Respectively, understanding the true source of their power and attributing their powers to superstition.

What you should be sorry about is being so blatantly wrong.

Mages ignore physics
Psychics manipulate them

Physchics are psudeosciency,
Mages are fantastical

Mages burst
Psychics are reliably steady

A mage fireballs you,
A psychic grinds you down.

I mean, I'm pretty much agreeing with you. The minutia of weather or not they throw bat poop around isn't as important as the fact that regardless they're consistently portrayed as needing to use all the same sigils and gestures and ooga booga bullshit as a wizard.

Psychics exist, mages don't. We're a soft sci-fi setting, not a science fantasy one.

Put them under divine acumen as specialists

Like how a Necromancer and a Cleric can do the same shit but are different, like that.

You can put mages in a soft scifi if the reasoning is scifish enough.

Since anyone with powers, regardless of the origin, will probbably end up with the powers labled as magic.

Even if the persons a obvious telekinetic, tell the feudal world that this isn't witchcraft.

>You can put mages in a soft scifi if the reasoning is scifish enough.
NONAMACHINES!

Mages exist

>You can put mages in a soft scifi if the reasoning is scifish enough.
Magic doesn't belong into a scifi setting

Mages study the laws of the universe to temporarily bend them. To do this they channel the residual energy the gods left behind after making the universe. They can create and destroy matter and intensify or reduce the laws of physics (gravity, etc) on people or

Psions are beings whose brains have been screwed with by the background noise caused by eldritch entities outside the universe. They can perceive this noise and recreate it to act according to the "outside" laws, which lets them forego things like linear time, the separation of consciousnesses, and the tendency stuff has to not spontaneously become other stuff.

Sure it does, it's just sufficiently advanced technology.

Further irony here is that wizard style magic in most fantasy setting is just different form of technology relying on different natural laws.

No, it doesn't belong, it makes no sense and doesn't fit

I hope you'll get my hidden point

I've recognized about five "sources" for magic in fantasy stories.

Knowledge, which we'd call Wizards Bestowment, which is Clerics, Druids, and Warlocks
Inherited, which covers your Sorcerers External, which covers Magic Items and Artificers
Gnostic, which covers your Psychics.

This is incomplete and blurry, of course. But these are the main trends I've seen.

>whats the difference between psychics and mages in your games?- 92 posts and 6 image replies shown.
No.

Magic is magic. Doesn't matter if you're resistant to physical damage because you're in a rage, casting stone-skin, summoning a forcefield that covers your body, etc. the method may be different but the end result is the same.

Besides, it always ends up being arbitrary bullshit and time spent trying to distinguish wizardry from sorcery from ESP from martial might is time I could spend working in the overall setting.

Not a damn thing

Magic for me is like the Force you start off being able to sense it, then move things, then influence the minds of the weak willed, then lightning exploding someone from the inside and making amulets that let you start a zombie apocalypse

Everything starts small and intuitive then you get more powerful and learn more about Magic so you can make all sorts of crazy shit happen or create all kinds of mystic artifacts

That's because you lack imagination, magic can fit any setting if you put the small amount of thought on it.

I get it. I'm also stoked that they released Mystic for 5e.

It's UA, playtest, is not in the official books yet.

They irony.

I know, but it's getting closer.

I actually agree that the distinction between different "types" of magic or psychic powers is largely arbitrary but then I think that brings us to the core of the issue.

Most of what goes on in roleplaying games is arbitrary, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad but it very easily can be, so the question becomes how to do it best?